The Collapse We Didn't See Coming - and What Happens Next

When any organization collapses, the public conversation turns immediately to the body count: how many jobs, how much revenue, how many programs, products, or locations are gone. Those are the visible losses, and they are real. But they are not what determines whether the organization recovers, or what it becomes if it does. That variable lives somewhere less visible: at the leadership table, in the quality of the culture among the people who have to make decisions together under pressure, often with fewer resources. This is a story anyone in leadership needs to pay attention to.

In January 2024, the federal government announced it would reduce international study permit approvals by 35%, sending shockwaves across Canadian higher education. A reasonable adjustment, by most accounts. The kind of policy correction that makes for a measured press release and a few cycles of sector commentary before the next news cycle arrives.

What followed was not a correction.
Approvals fell closer to 48%, overshooting the government's own target by nearly 100,000 permits. Ontario was projected to see a 41% reduction. It saw 75. Every province without exception landed well below its intended target, most by a margin that doubled or tripled the forecast decline. The government did not overshoot its policy. It did not understand the system it was adjusting.

Across Ontario's 24 publicly funded colleges, 23 reported a 48% decline in international enrolment. Over 8,000 jobs confirmed lost in Ontario alone, projections approaching 10,000. More than 600 programs suspended or cancelled. Four campuses closed. The sector has shed upwards of 12,000 positions nationally.

The word for this is collapse, not correction. Calling it a correction allows everyone involved to frame what happened as a policy that went slightly further than intended - and keeps the conversation inside a comfortable register. The harder conversation only opens when you use the accurate word. Because what collapsed was not just enrolment. What collapsed was a funding model that had been quietly hollowing out for two decades.

Provincial governments across the country, Ontario most acutely, had been withdrawing per-student funding for years while allowing international tuition to fill the gap. The province that now faces the deepest cuts had frozen domestic tuition since 2019 while its colleges built operating models on revenue that was, structurally speaking, one policy change away from disappearing. The cap didn't create the dependency. It exposed it.

Many leadership teams had no experience operating without dependency on international revenue. The instinct was to cut hard, cut fast, and in many cases cut far too deep. Some administrative teams, exercising leverage they had never had before, did so with gusto. The result has been not only the decimation of Canada's standing as an educational destination, but a crippling of internal capacity - faculty, programs, institutional knowledge - that may take years or decades to rebuild. The financial shock may prove easier to recover from than the human one.

And then there is what I call the ReOrg Echo - seldom discussed, consistently underestimated. It is the wave of attrition that follows an aggressive round of cuts. Faced with orphaned responsibilities, depressed colleagues, and eroded trust in leadership, many of your best people will quietly decide to leave. The institution that cut to survive finds itself understaffed for the recovery.​

Episode Summary: In this powerful episode, Tim Sweet unpacks the critical role of focus in leadership, especially when navigating the noise of political and economic uncertainty. With heartfelt clarity, Tim explores how today’s leaders can rise above the chaos by gaining altitude and stepping back to assess what truly matters. He invites us to let go of the busywork, choose the essential few priorities, and give ourselves permission to slow down and realign.

pisode Notes
In this powerful episode, Tim Sweet unpacks the critical role of focus in leadership, especially when navigating the noise of political and economic uncertainty. With heartfelt clarity, Tim explores how today’s leaders can rise above the chaos by gaining altitude and stepping back to assess what truly matters. He invites us to let go of the busywork, choose the essential few priorities, and give ourselves permission to slow down and realign.

Drawing from his own experiences, including a delay in releasing this very episode due to a client crisis, Tim reinforces the idea that integrity in leadership starts with reclaiming control of our time and energy. Through practical tools and emotional insight, Tim challenges us to start each day with intention, not the inbox.

He introduces a simple but powerful three-step practice: notice when energy is off-track, name a meaningful action, and schedule it. By understanding the emotional drivers of distraction, such as insecurity and the urge to prove ourselves, leaders can instead ground themselves in purpose. Whether it's protecting your most creative hour or "bilge-sweeping" your week to clear the clutter, this episode offers a refreshing reminder: true leadership starts from within.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Ep. 30 with Jagroop Chhina
• Ep. 51 with Jared VanderMeer

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• LinkedIn: Team Work Excellence

Transcript:
Tim 00:01
Everything we talk about in the show pertains to leadership in some way, shape or form, or at least your leadership impact and your leadership career. But real daily leadership in a time where we've got political upheaval, where we've got economic upheaval, it feels harder and harder to maintain. So this week, one of my editors said to me, Tim, could you talk about how we can focus when everything feels uncertain? That landed. Because right now, a lot of leaders are tired. They're asking a lot of big questions, they're reacting to a lot of volatility, and they've got teams that are distracted. They've got teams that are actually, in some cases, at each other's throats. They may have lost trust. They may be dealing with personal crisis. While we have to talk about that as well. We have to be able to do our jobs at the end of the day,

Tim 00:58
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. This is episode 55 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast.

Tim 01:30
I want to be transparent with you. This episode, it was supposed to be out a few days ago, or at least I was supposed to get the recording to my editor, but a client crisis came up. It was urgent, it was important, it was distracting. I got pulled in. The irony isn't lost on me that when I'm about to record something about focus, I myself lost focus.

Tim 01:54
So today's for the leader who wants traction, not just more output, but clarity, integrity, so that they can believe in themselves, so they make good on the promises they make to themselves. We want to develop a rhythm that we can predict and that we can trust. Let's start up high 10,000 feet, because the first problem with focus is where we're looking. It's easy sometimes to get stuck in the weeds when we haven't really considered how we do the work. We need to take some time and work on the work. We need to focus on how we focus. If we get locked in on a task level, what's due, what's late, what's noisy, what's the emergency of the day? Things can seem very unmovable. So our first concept is, think about altitude. Be able to go way up, 300,000 feet, look down every once in a while and say, am I working on the right thing? Is this the piece of work that's going to move that needle forward. 

Tim 3:06
So here's the first question, what does this season of your career actually demand you become? Not what's trendy, not what's the burning platform in the moment politically, not what used to work, not what others are simply applauding. Just this season. Just right now. Who do you need to be? In my work with executives, with clients and universities and businesses and medicine, we want to be able to name those one to three things at any point that are going to move the needle and then ruthlessly let go of the rest. Because here's the truth, if everything is important, you know that nothing is. You have to choose, not just what to do and the quality you bring with that, but what to release, what to stop doing?

Tim 04:05
Focus isn't just about intensity of attention. It's about permission, giving ourselves the right to stop and invest in what matters. We ask our people to keep their head on the swivel, to think about what matters. Why are you doing things? But so often, we ourselves get overwhelmed and we forget that not everything is possible. Leaders often become the catch all. They will do something just because they're trying to keep their other people so committed and deployed effectively that the little things well, it's just easier to do them than to develop a system by which we're going to get those done. And in the process, the people that are at the top most positions in teams and businesses themselves become overwhelmed and you cannot give away calm. You cannot promote calm in others if you yourself don't have a sense of calm and control. So before we optimize our own schedules, we want to think about elevation. We need to get up and zoom out and get honest what deserves our focus in this season of our lives, in this quarter of the business, in this area of our growth and development.

Tim 05:34
Even when you know your priorities, your day, can still get hijacked. What does it take? One email, one off handed comment, one meeting you didn't expect to be in, one emergency you didn't think was going to take place, and you're back in reaction mode. So here's a simple shift start your day in intention, not in your inbox, but with intention. Before the world grabs your energy. Decide where does your energy need to go? Decide where that day needs to end.

Tim 06:14
With the work life design tool that I use with every client, when we onboard, we talk about energy alignment. Not just how to get more done, but how to develop a capacity to feel more focused and to really make sure you're in command of your day. You need capacity to create capacity. For me, I live by my calendar. My clients know that if it's not in my calendar, it does not happen. So I make sure that every time a new event comes in, it has to go in my calendar. It has to immediately be jotted down, captured even contextually. If I don't have it, if I don't have access to that, because I've chosen not to focus on long term things, I'm very much into the Get it into my inbox and delegate it into an event. I need that so that I can maintain my free time and my booked time. My free time is very, very important, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily free. Let's let's probably call it flexible time. But for me, that time becomes wildly creative. It's when I get to be curious. It's when I get to think about which one of my clients I'm caring about most in the moment, which one requires my intention, which one do I need to send out a little hello to if I haven't heard from them. Who am I concerned about? Who am I really wanting to see move something forward. If it's not in my calendar, it simply doesn't happen.

Tim 07:52
Because if even one block of my responsibility hasn't been represented in a visual way, and this is my way, it doesn't have to be yours. I can't keep control of it. I will fill the whole day, but I may fill it with what I'm most interested in or most passionate about, or I just don't let something go rather than diverting and changing tact. And when you have as many clients as I do, as many projects on the go, as many books that I want to write, you need to be able to switch gears. So here is a question for you. What's one part of your day that you can reclaim? Take a look at your calendar and see where you are pointed at things that simply don't provide you any value. Can you get that back? Where is there a spot that is claimed with the wrong thing and you could put that to better use?

Tim 08:57
Okay. Next question. When does your energy in the day feel most clear? Pay attention for the next week when you feel a sense of clarity. For some people, it's first thing in the morning. For myself, it's often first thing in the morning. For other people, it's right before they go to bed. And for still other people, they need to have experienced the day. So it might be at four o'clock or five o'clock. People are different. Some people need to be in this dance between forecasting what they need to do and finding out what they actually need to do that day. But pay attention when during the day is best for you to stop and kind of do a broad sweep of what you're working on. 

Tim 9:42
Third question, what's one thing that you can protect that fuels your impact and your focus and your time, not just the activity? So what's something that settles you down or gives you that type of space it might be going for a walk. It might be taking a glass of water. It might be that space before you decide to hunker down and watch a movie. When do you need to honour your requirement of refocusing your life, of really clearing out the bilge, getting rid of things that don't matter? All in all, this means don't manage your time. Design it. Design a day that you can win with. Here's the layer most productivity advice skips. There is an emotional driver underneath everything that we do. And there is an emotional driver underneath, failing to focus, failing to take stock of what's important and what can you ignore. We're not simply distracted because we're disorganized. We're distracted because of insecurity. We fail to cut loose things we don't need to do because doing those things, says something to ourselves, proves something to ourselves, that allows us to feel secure in the moment. Perhaps it's that useless meeting that we're supposed to go to, that if we don't, the boss is going to hate us. We're trying to, in those moments, prove that we’re enough. If you're a mom or a dad, you might be trying to please everyone. Or you might be trying to pattern yourself after someone else's formula. But proving pleasing, patterning, it's all exhausting, and it can keep us busy but completely unfulfilled.

Tim 11:46
So another question, when you look at the tasks that you've got in front of yourself, is it about impact, or is it about insecurity? Until we confront that and we're fluent in what makes us insecure and what has us nervous. It's very hard to arrive at the best systems, because that insecurity that trying to keep up the false self sits there like a gravitational force that pulls us faster and faster, often in the wrong direction again when we pause, we take that time to reflect. We have to look at everything that's important to us, everything that's happening on the outside, but then also, what are we trying to be on the inside? Whose approval are we chasing? What would change if we stopped needing to prove that thing to others or to ourselves.

Tim 12:46
The deepest kind of focus isn't tactical. The deepest kind of focus is emotional intelligence and emotional alignment. Where are we and why are we there, and is it aligned with who we really are and what we really need to do?

Tim 13:05
Okay, big words. How do we make this real? Well, you don't need a new app, although there's lots that are out there that they're going to promise that they can solve this for you. And you don't need a massive overhaul. An app is snake oil. There's things out there that promise to do it for you. We don't need to develop faster pencils, faster ways to get unfocused, trying to do more when really we need to be doing less. And we don't need to change ourselves. We don't have time to change you, nor would we want to, because why would we want to knock all those sharp edges off of you, who is perfect and very effective at being you better than anybody else at being you.

Tim 13:52
Here's a three-step practice that I come back to, especially when I feel scattered. Practice, like meditation, is knowing you're out of that state of flow. You've got to notice. I feel like my energy is misdirected. So where is my energy going today? Is it being bled by urgency and emergency? Is it being bled by ego or insecurity? Is it being bled by lack of alignment with something, I don't feel like I'm working on something that I feel is important, or I can't connect the dots? Am I having an issue with fit with the type of work I'm doing today? Or am I having an issue with being frustrated with perhaps someone else or a set of values that I don't agree with. So notice, is your energy slipping away? Is your focus slipping away? And where is it going?

Tim 14:52
The next thing is, find one meaningful action and name it. Notice the energy is going away. Right? And then name that one meaningful thing you could do that would bring this back into control. And it's often not something complex. It's not becoming somebody new. It's not developing some new tool. It's saying, Hey, I'm feeling insecure right now. I'm not sure if Bob appreciated how I talked to them yesterday. So what's one meaningful thing I could do? Call Bob, call Bob and ask. It's not complex. It takes ownership and leadership of the situation, and it goes out and says, Hey, this is what I'm worried about. And Bob may not agree, um, you know, I'm fine, or he might say, yeah, you were an asshole. But we've settled it, and we've probably dealt with what we really needed to deal with in the process. You might not be able to deal with them right in the moment. You might feel something but not be able to action it. So, notice you're out. Notice you're out of focus. Name the thing that's going to bring you back in and then schedule that thing. When are you going to do it? When are you going to protect 45 minutes in the day where you are going to move some of these things forward? And it can be a great, really liberating part of your day to say, you know, I'm going to have that spot to just clean the bilge. If you follow me for a little while now, you know that I've had this, this interest in Napoleonic seafaring. Well, those ships were disgusting. You know, these large ships of the line, these large merchant vessels, they had these disgusting bilges down in the bottom, where, where, you know, the wood was rotting, there was effluent, there was rat shit, there was there was stagnant sea water, and, gosh knows what else down there. The best ships are said to have sweetened the bilge on a regular basis, because, you know, down there in the hold, things can get pretty sour and pretty stagnant. And so they would let sea water in, and they would have people on the pumps, and they would exchange the dirty bilge water for clean bilge water. Ideally, you'd like to keep the bilge dry, but if you can't, at least sweeten it. 

Tim 17:21
So think about that. What's the time of day that you're going to have a time to sit back and and sweeten your bilge? Right? You can do it in the morning. You can do it before anything else starts barking for your attention. It's a great way to use the morning pages activity that we talked about in several other episodes. This isn't about being perfect. It's not about making sure that you are never exposed. It's not about being resistant to ever being unfocused. Lack focus happens. It's going to happen to you. We are we are built to look far off and close up. It's why our eyes were nearsighted and far sighted. It's not about being perfect. It's not about never being surprised. It's about building trust with yourself again that you can make the calls needed to take control of your day. Because when you can consistently refocus, you can follow through on what matters, and that sense of agency over what you're working on what's important to you returns. And interestingly enough, you know, there's a million ways to get something done. This practice also allows us to design what's our best way through a problem, because our route may not be the route that our neighbors should take. In the end, it allows us to stop drifting and start leading our day, start leading our schedule. 

Tim 18:52
So let's land here. In these times, these times where volatility and distraction and noise, where everything is vying for our attention. Focus isn't a tactic. It's a leadership stance. In martial arts, depending on what practice you're in, the first thing they teach you is grounded horse stance. If you're boxing, they teach you that orthodox or that southpaw stance, where your back foot, the back foot is the one that when your eyes are closed and they push you, that's the one that falls to the back, because that's your steadiest position. That position says to you, when you know what it is, you've got a home base, you can say this focus, this home base, this feeling of stability, is what I've chosen to give myself today. I deserve this. I deserve to not feel off kilter. This is where I will show up for myself and protect the time that I want to spend on this planet. This doesn't make you better than everybody else. It does not make you superhuman. It just means that you're intentional, and the more you practice this, the easier it gets.

Tim 20:07
Warren Buffet, everybody's business Grandpa, lovely, straight headed, wildly successful. Salt of the earth, super grounded. He never has felt the need to put on airs. He wants to be practical. He lives in a small home with his wife, and he drives in a simple car. He says that it's his drive home and his drive to work which is his chance to refocus and think deep thoughts and and really plan out his day. And he finds that by silencing the radio, he doesn't use his radio. He doesn't listen to music. He takes that opportunity to just enjoy silence, and that is something that we don't have a lot of in our lives. For myself, it's first thing in the morning. I got a busy family. When everybody gets up, it is mayhem. I'm the only morning Lark. I'm a morning person. I'm the only morning Lark in a House of Night owls. They love to stay up late. They've got all sorts of energy at night, but that few minutes in the morning when I can just be intentional, focus on what I need to do, have that bit of quiet. Ideally, being out on a walk and doing it is golden. It's how I find traction and wherever you find your most energy, where you feel that you can have that natural propensity to focus, schedule it, because that's how you're going to find traction every day, in small ways in this shifting world that is trying to vie for your Attention. Jagroop Chhina said that the new economy is an attention economy. Jared van der Meer said the same thing. It's all about watch time. People are trying to keep you focused on them, not focused on yourself, and we need to win this focus back. When we can find focus, we find traction.

Tim 22:03
That's how we create clarity for ourselves. And when we have clarity for ourselves, we can provide that clarity for our teams. That's how you become a better leader or focused on integrity, doing the right thing at the right time, not just activity. We look up to heroes because they're the ones that do the right thing at the right time, even when it's tough. That is the definition of integrity. Extend that integrity down to every activity that you do. Is that the best thing that you could be doing right now? And then, I would really highly recommend you have some recess time, some free time, both to reground yourself and focus, but also just to go out and do some silly stuff, go out and exercise, go out and just get creative. You know, that's the rule. Free time when you're allowed to be distracted, when you're allowed to just free think and ideally producing it, creating, not consuming. And keep that time and schedule it in the same way, intentionally.

Tim 23:10
with all of this. I hope it helps you find new levels of focus this week and every week beyond. If you are interested in getting very, very precise about where your life is aimed, where your day is aimed, where your career is aimed, and you want to build that back in your life. I think it's probably time that we we have a conversation. Meanwhile, thanks once again for joining us here. Thanks again for investing a few minutes in yourself and your own development. If this resonated with you, share it with your colleagues. Share it with your team. Share it with your family. Anybody who you feel is wrestling with clarity on who they are and what they do in the course of the day and who you think focus might help. It's a skill that we don't think of as a skill. We think we should just have it. But you teach it to yourself, bring it into your relationships, perhaps you teach it to young people that are important to you. Can do amazing things. Can unlock amazing levels of natural efficiency, because when we have capacity, we can create capacity. When we have a feeling of togetherness and calm, we can create togetherness and calm. And when we have focus, we can create focus. We can move from creating it for ourselves to mastery over it. And when we have mastery over it, we can mentor it in others, if you want more tools to help you with finding your rhythm, your groove, and to protect that energy that so many people want to rob you of, you'll find a link to how you can get into a Work Life, Design, conversation with me in the show notes. Take the time to stay focused, and when you do, you'll feel more aligned. You'll feel more confident. And you'll feel like you are better able to show up and lead not just your own life,but the work of others. Okay, I'll see you again next time.

Tim 25:12
Thank you, so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts, this helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this episode of Sweet on Leadership, Tim Sweet introduces a four-part framework for navigating leadership in uncertain times. He begins with The Drift, identifying control, confusion, and collapse as signs of misalignment, not failure. In The Reset, he calls leaders to reconnect with purpose and energy by making small, aligned decisions. The Reach focuses on guiding teams with clarity and adaptability, while The Practice reframes transformation as a continuous, intentional discipline. Tim closes with a call to return to what truly matters, reshape ourselves, and lead the future with resilience and purpose.

Episode Notes
In this episode of Sweet on Leadership, Tim Sweet guides us through his four-part framework of leadership transformation amidst today’s instability. In The Drift, Tim helps leaders recognize the subtle signs of misalignment—control, confusion, and collapse—as natural but unsustainable coping mechanisms. He unpacks how these reactions stem not from personal failure but from the emotional weight of leading in a constantly shifting world. The key, he says, is not pushing harder, but stepping back to reconnect with the foundation of leadership itself.

From there, we move into The Reset, a call to return to purpose and audit the energy we give to people and projects. Tim encourages listeners to make just one aligned decision and let small, intentional actions build toward bigger change. In The Reach, he explores how leaders can guide their teams with clarity and truth—not by solving every problem, but by anchoring to what matters most and adapting as needed. Finally, in The Practice, Tim reframes transformation as a modular, ongoing discipline. It’s not about heroic reinvention, but honest, daily choices that reshape how we lead from the inside out.

The episode closes with a powerful reminder: this isn’t about fixing others or waiting for normal to return—it’s about returning to our bedrock, reshaping ourselves, and choosing to lead what’s next with resilience and purpose. If you’re feeling the pull to lead differently, this conversation offers the clarity and calm you didn’t know you needed. 

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence:

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Transcript
Tim  00:01
When outside forces are bucketing us around, politically, socially, economically, and our people are bringing in more fear into the workplace, and our clients are more hesitant than ever, and the whole world seems like it is on tilt. We're still supposed to be leaders, and that can feel sometimes like a fantasy. By the end of this episode, you're going to have a clear sense of what might be holding you back. And I'll give you some practical ways that we can go forward, not through more effort, because we know today, capacity is an issue, energy is an issue. Not through more effort, but through better alignment, alignment with your purpose and alignment with who you are. You're going to walk away with some new language, some new structure and hopefully a new mindset, so that you can go through these resets and lead with clarity again. So if you're a leader and you felt more tired, more scattered and more unsure lately, this episode is the one you need. 

Tim 1:06
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable. If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. I'd like to welcome you to the 54th episode of the sweet on leadership podcast. 

Tim 1:38
Welcome. Perhaps you feel like you're the only one that is struggling today, I want you to know you're not alone. A lot of the smartest, most capable leaders that I work with, the ones that are at the very top of organizations, are saying the same thing. I don't know if what I'm doing is the right thing, and I have days where I'm not sure I'm enough. It's not just the pressure that is coming down to deliver our strategies and our mandates. There is a new fear, a new anxiety and a new emotional weight that's on everyone you your team, your customers, the people you serve. It's the fact that the ground keeps shifting today, not just that things are tumultuous, but everything is changing week on week. Yet you're supposed to stay steady yet you have long range commitments that you need to make.

Speaker 1 2:31
A lot more time spent on investments or politics. Those are the things where people are having conversations. 

Speaker 2  2:38
We've all got budget pressures. The political noise. Staff complaining. Faculty complaining. Students are complaining. It's all piling up, and people seem hesitant and guarded, and we used to be more collegial. Now it just feels, just feels like everybody's getting by, just trying not to drop the ball.

Speaker 3  3:00
I don't think I've seen work like this. I haven't seen teams, still smiling, but just tightly wound. 

Speaker 4  3:09
I've been spending more time managing how people feel than actually moving work forward. We need to hit deadlines, and it's like everybody's tired. 

​Speaker 5 3:18
And I can't slow down. I've kept myself checking in on things more often, just making sure things are moving along. And I'm mentally frazzled. It's just so much more frustrating, and this is what I'm hearing from my team.

Tim  03:38
Okay, let's talk about leadership exhaustion. Some days, leadership doesn't feel like it's as simple as simply carrying the vision forward inspiring people. It feels like trying to stay upright and holding on to people amidst this flood of uncertainty. Today, you're going to be navigating complexity, managing expectations, carrying emotions of others, and somewhere in all of that, you're supposed to be clear, you're supposed to be stalwart, you're supposed to be steady. But lately, a lot of leaders are finding themselves in this type of fog. They're not broken, they're not necessarily burned out we’re just caught in this limbo. We're between two worlds, the world we were prepared for and that everything worked in, and this other world, this unknown future where we're standing now. It's this limbo that has us feeling adrift, and it's here, when we feel this way that we have to be the ones to first find purchase. This is how we get set to transform and rebuild. It's not recovery, it's not resilience, in the way of being broken and then having to get fixed again. We're actually talking about being break resistant. Because in this environment, transformation isn't a one time pivot. We can't just change things around us. There's that saying that says everybody wants progress, but nobody wants change. Well here change even isn't enough. We have to transform, and that ability to transform and to really evolve oneself is a continuous skill. 

Tim 05:30
Let's talk about the drift. When the pressure around us builds, the highest performing leaders fall into one of three states, typically. We have ones that tend to opt for control. They take everything on themselves, they tighten their grip, they micromanage. It's a form of leadership that's more about protecting others, but really it's over functioning. It's trying to make everyone safe. It's trying to bring everything home yourself. It's trying to be the hero. The second camp that people fall into is one that is confused. They're pivoting constantly. Everything feels urgent, everything feels like a threat, and they lose the thread of what actually matters. And in third camp, we actually see collapse. We see people going through certain motions, but quietly, just checking out. They're still doing the job, but they're finding ways to divest themselves from caring too deeply, because that's just painful. These aren't character flaws necessarily. They're coping strategies, and they're what we see in response to a world that keeps moving the goal posts. We have to remember that many of us, all of us, have been through the trauma of the pandemic, and we learned coping mechanisms just to get through the day. Those coping mechanisms for many people are reasserting themselves. It's how we dealt with great degrees of uncertainty and polarization. 

Tim 7:10
And polarization is a big deal. In today's world, things are more polarized. Things are more emotionally charged. People are taking things very personally, not just from a dogmatic perspective or a belief perspective, but also because this is hitting them in the pocketbook. Things are becoming economically unstable. These are things that you feel. And when the clarity and the certainty that we're okay disappears, we begin this kind of drift. It's just like a boat that's lost its anchor. We can't lead people well from that place. We've got no steerage on, we've got no forward momentum, we have no wind to drive our sails, we have no water moving over the rudder. So because what's forward looks so scary, we tend to go back to a previous version of ourselves, like an image on your computer drive the thing that was the last version of your computer that was working before you got a bug. Going back to the previous version of ourselves isn't always the best way to go. We don't need to go back to the previous version we need to actually dive deep and go back to what is foundational, back to that bedrock, which are the simplest possible terms of what we are and what we're meant to be. 

Tim 13:02
This brings us to the reset. Resetting is not just about calming down, and it's definitely not about simply changing the strategy and changing things that are around us so that we can stay the same. It's actually saying this new way of operating requires a new version of us, and so we have to transform, and we have to transform in real time, because our old assumptions and our old way of being don't fit the time. This doesn't mean a wholesale reinvention. That would be incredible. You can't become a different person, and we don't want to start from scratch, because that's just incredibly overwhelming and exhausting. Instead, what we need to do is return to what's essential and then build back up selectively so that we can address where as leaders, do we have things that will work in the future state and will not work in the future state. What about our strategy works? What about our strategy doesn't? What about our processes and how we lead them works and what doesn't? And what about our people and our teams and how they're engaged and what works and what doesn't? And if you want to go one step further, we have to look at our interest holders or our customers? Are they working for us? Do they need to change? If we're going to shift any of those things, we have to get into this state of creativity. 

Tim 10:13
So step one, we need to reconnect with our purpose. You've heard Sinek say “your why” not the one in the strategic plan, not the purpose that's on your company mission statement, but the one that lives in here in your gut. Who are you designed to be? How do you express yourself in this world as being a powerful entity? Why are you here? And why are you right for this moment, that's what you have to connect to. 

Tim 10:45
Step two, we need to audit your energy. What parts of your work are giving you life, despite all the confusion, which are giving you a sense of driving you forward and are drawing you forward or pulling you forward. You're not pushing rope. You're actually enthused with what you're working on and what parts of your life and your work and your roles are draining you? What have you been tolerating that in this new, more brittle future you can no longer tolerate? We have to now become very economic with how we're spending our time and how we're how we're expending energy. Burnout often hides in the gap between our values and who we think we need to be and the demands of our calendar. And we try to be this and do this. And those two things don't always mesh. We have to be much more selective and find methods and processes that allow us to balance those two things.

Tim  11:54
Step three, we need to make one decision. We need to make one move at a time towards alignment, not multiple moves. We need to take one step towards agency. You don't need a grand plan, and you don't need to be working things all simultaneously. The reason is this has to be experimental, and you're going to be creating and trying something and seeing if it makes life better. And you can't do that if you are changing multiple multiple factors at once. 

Tim 12:26
You don't need that grand plan, but you do need to prove things out. And most importantly, your brain is going to be learning this entire time. You need to prove to yourself that you're not powerless in a seemingly massive and uncontrolled situation where you feel like such a small fish in such a large pond. 

Tim 12:47
Transformation happens properly in small ways, right? We don't try to evolve everything at once. We try to look at how do we need to evolve, and then make selective adaptations. If we go at things with this scalpel rather than a shotgun approach, we can approach things modularly. We can change out one thing at a time. 

Tim 13:15
This is the practice, and it's what as a leader, we have to train our egos and our brains and our instincts to serve. When is it time to initiate another one of these recreations, another one of these adaptations, another one of these transformations. 

Tim 13:39
A sustainable transformation that's not going to destroy us and have to completely build us up from the bottom. Happens in small modular bites. These small choices that allow us to sense  something needs to change, test it out, and then make that change and go for something new. It is a creative process. It would be like trying to paint a picture where you want to change something about the picture, so you wipe everything off. No, you don't do that. You look at what is wrong with this image, and then you push a little bit of paint around. You add a little bit of red here and a little bit of green there. It is a creative exercise. It's an artistic exercise. It's releasing something that has always been there and has just been cluttered up.

Tim 14:32
This sense that something needs to change, and then we get foundational, and then it becomes manageable. Is a practice. It's a discipline. Because once we can do that, and we can tolerate, then we can enter this kind of creative, experimental stage where we can try different things on. That's how we evolve. That's how we build ourselves into something new. 

Tim 14:56
And when we build ourselves into something new, and we do it right, you know what? We don't feel like we had to become somebody else. No, we're making choices. There's a lot of agency here, right? And we're making better choices, because these are all steps that are closer to who we were ultimately meant to be. And yet, I talk a lot about fluency. I talk about having a clear idea of what your ultimate expression looks like, because that gives us a true north about where we want to go and when we're in periods of transition and transformation, crisis like this, that true north, that clear vision of who I'm meant to be. It allows us to make some very logical decisions. It's like a game of hot and cold. You know, when a move is getting you warmer, warmer, not colder, colder, warmer, it's towards where you need to be. 

Tim 16:01
All right, so once you've done the internal work, which again, is to get back down to this foundation of who I am, what am I meant to be, and what can I change? And what am I going to work on first. it's time to guide others. The reason is they're going to be going through the same things. And you can take a look at them and say, All right, which ones are stepping up their level of control, trying to gather more control, which ones are confused and getting creative and trying to just throw spaghetti at the wall, and which ones are choosing to disengage, and they're kind of collapsing in that way. You need to help them through it, coach them through it, because if you don't, they're going to be a constant drag on your energy. You cannot supplement them through this. You cannot be the hero. You have to help them find their own stability. When we do that, we will be working through them to help them. name, what's real in their lives. What are they dealing with? As leaders, our best approach is to speak plainly, speak in terms that are real. We don't need to sugar coat things. We have to be kind, but we don't need to sugar coat things, and we don't need to dramatize things, because we don't want to engage in mental manipulation. We don't want to be fooling them through things that are okay. That's not a way to build stability for others. We want to bring truth into the room. We want to focus our teams on what matters most right now, the essential work, the parts of the strategy, what we're going to see through, and where you expect them to be. We might have that long term goal, but we also need to have short term goals in terms of what are we going to work on in this team to become that new thing. We want to make sure that we reassert the values that we've always had and the ones which we refuse to compromise on, because we can't shift our values and expect to be happy a few months down the road. So, here's a shift that you want to start to engage in stop treating this new tension like something that you can manage. Treat it like something you need to understand and then be able to work with. Thirnk of it like a new current in the water. We need to be able to not only navigate it, but we need to be able to utilize it to move forward effectively. 

Tim 18:40
The tensions reveal why our old ways no longer fit with new realities. And when we start to think in terms of tensions and conflicts, it helps us understand where our systems and our behaviors and our beliefs and our identity and our assumptions and our fears and our myth, etc, need to be evolved. Need to be either proven true or need to be disregarded. Transformation isn't one big moment, it's 1000 small realignments. They're modular, they're intentional, and they're ongoing. And this might seem overwhelming, but for a moment, just stop and think, when there's no crisis and we're just going through business generally, we are constantly rebasing things. We might have gone through a project or a particularly tough time, and we look back at and say, oh, we were good enough to get through that. Well, that's actually something that we want to call out as being a success bias, we forget that. You know, that road to that success was full of small adjustments and often transformations. The only thing here right now is the threat seems so much more out of the norm, but the fundamentals remain the same. You don't have to overhaul everything. In fact, you shouldn't. We simply have to get really real and then find the parts that no longer serve, and we reshape those parts. We transform those parts. And this is how teams change. This is how culture changes. Whether or not you have a new person join the team, or a new leader join the team, or you're pointed in a substantially different direction. For us, our transformation is how our leadership becomes sustainable, and it's how our trust in ourselves becomes sustainable. Once we realize that we are creatures of transformation and creatures of reinvention, then we're okay. So let's talk a little bit about the practice, because this doesn't really get talked about enough. We always just think, we go ahead and we do it. None of this is a one-and-done. You are not transforming once. You are transforming often. And as I say, You're a creature of transformation. Sometimes these have to be more profound than others, and they feel bigger. Sometimes we do this on an organizational level, new roles, new teams, reorganization, strategic shifts, brand new leaders. But more often, they happen in small ways, and they happen constantly. They can happen in the moment of how we speak in a meeting, how we hold a boundary or a line, how we choose to be present and listen in the moment over panicking, when we choose to calm people down or offer a, You know, a gentle push in the right direction. the idea of transformation is something that we need to normalize. We have to make space for it. We have to consider it as a practice, not a crisis response. Yes, if you're feeling this way, a crisis is causing you to listen to me right now, but this should be a change that you make now, and you carry this as a practice forward for the rest of your leadership journey. 

Tim 22:09
It is okay as an individual and as a leader to feel wobbly, to not know that something is just right. Often we fake our way through this. Instead, we want to realize that we have slipped out of our sense of control, and we want to get real and honest with that, and then approach it in a very intentional way. You don't need a lot of fancy language to do this, or a polished leadership message. You don't need to gain some sort of a degree in order to be good at this. Instead, we need to be intentional and present. You need to notice where friction lives in yourself and in your team, and you need to notice what old habits and myths and structures are grinding against what you need now. Transformation starts with this incredible amount of honesty, and once we are honest and we can put ourselves between that immovable object and that irresistible force, we feel momentum and we're encouraged forward. And I use that word intentionally, because being encouraged is being filled with courage that we're headed in the right direction, and that makes it very easy for people to feel that energy and that certainty. You can bring that to yourself so you have a better Monday and a better Friday, and you can bring that to your team so that they're less likely to want to jump ship because they start blaming the job, instead of recognizing that it's simply a time to change and we can stop blaming the work and letting it run roughshod over us and sap us of all of our energy and overwhelm us with capacity challenges. You're only three months into this insanity. We have at least two to four years of this coming, so you may be tempted to wait it out, but the people who are going to make it through this in fine, fine style, are the ones that are going to realize they're in a fog and decide to get through it, not just adapt enough to survive, but actually to become that thing that they were always meant to become. Don't waste a good crisis. So maybe it's time to shoot for something a little bit deeper. I encourage you to get open about stripping back to what's true and what matters most, and what fits this moment and who you need to be today and build from there. Because the leaders that we need now aren't the ones who are claiming to have all the answers, because, frankly, we don't know what the future is going to look like. They're the ones that are willing to transform, they're ones that are willing to connect with others and create spaces for dialog, and they're the ones that are able to do this over and over again in the service of something meaningful. So trust yourself that you are enough, start from where you are, in fact, start beneath that, from who you really are and what you really want, and then with just your first step, with that first decision, with that first act of clarity, you can move. 

Tim 25:52
Thanks for taking this moment to be here with me for investing in yourself and your own growth. If you found this little method helpful, I'd encourage you to share it with somebody who might be carrying more stress and weight than they let on. And this week, get excited, because this is a tremendous opportunity to stimulate that growth and that transformation in yourself, figuring out how to get one step closer to that ultimate expression of potential and lead wherever this crazy world takes us. All right, see you soon.

Tim  26:33
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

​Tim  26:33
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this episode, Tim sits down with longtime friend and financial advisor Dave Appleton, who brings over 40 years of experience in financial planning. Dave shares insights on the importance of long-term financial strategies, emphasizing visualization as a powerful tool for understanding complex financial concepts. Beyond finances, Dave and Tim explore the importance of staying active and engaged in retirement to maintain both mental and physical well-being. Tune in for a conversation that blends financial wisdom with practical life lessons, helping you make smarter choices for a more secure and fulfilling future.

Episode Notes
In this episode, Tim sits down with longtime friend and financial advisor Dave Appleton, who brings over 40 years of experience in financial planning. Dave shares insights on the importance of long-term financial strategies, emphasizing visualization as a powerful tool for understanding complex financial concepts. He explains key principles like the rule of 72 for investment growth and the value of diversification to secure financial stability across generations. Through real-life client stories, Dave highlights how proper planning can lead to financial success and security, while short-term thinking—like what fueled the tech bubble—can be detrimental.

Beyond finances, Dave and Tim explore the importance of staying active and engaged in retirement to maintain both mental and physical well-being. They discuss how early retirement without purpose can increase the risk of cognitive decline and why continuous learning, including leveraging screen time for education, can keep the mind sharp. Dave also shares how simple visualization techniques—like using sugar cubes to demonstrate financial impact—can make complex topics more accessible. Tune in for a conversation that blends financial wisdom with practical life lessons, helping you make smarter choices for a more secure and fulfilling future.

About Dave Appleton
Dave has been assisting individuals with the planning of their Lifestyle Retirement goals. His objective is to provide individuals and business owners with the advice they need to achieve their immediate and long-term goals by offering a wide range of financial products and services through Planning Strategies Group Ltd. In 2004, Dave was awarded by the Financial Planning Standards Council of Canada (along with two other business associates), the prestigious award of "Advisor of the Year".

In addition to help develop and manage a Financial Planning department for a major world-wide Life Insurance corporation, he was also one of the first individuals to set up a full service Financial Planning company in association with accountants and lawyers, this providing a one-stop service for individuals and business owners needing Financial, Estate and Tax Planning advice.

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

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Contact Dave Appleton: 

• Linkedin: Dave Appleton

Transcript
Dave  00:01
A picture is worth 1000 words. You get good screen time. You've got 10,000 words, and the memory of a picture is a lot greater than the memory reading from a book. I'm not saying you don't remember. It's just that the picture is there and you can visualize, and if you can visualize something down the road in 10 years, five years. But the thing is, it imprints is there, but the book isn't the same as a picture as that picture. This is why this has become a lot more usable.

Tim  00:33
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action. Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to the 53rd episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim 1:06
Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for joining us again. Here on the Sweet on Leadership podcast, I have a dear friend joining me today. I'd like to introduce you all to Dave Appleton. Dave Appleton has been a friend of our family, helping us with financial decisions. We've known each other for years. We came from the same community, but Dave means so much to the health and the wealth and the happiness of my family that it's a real pleasure that I get to introduce all of you today to this fine man. So Dave, thanks for joining us. I hope that this is a fun experience, and I'm looking forward to all the reactions we're going to get from this, because I know that the lessons and the messages that you have and what you've taught me in the past is going to resonate with a lot of people out there that are trying to improve their influence and their impact with others and their life in general. So again, I'm really excited for this one.

Dave 02:01
Happy for you. It's been a pleasure.

Tim  02:06
Okay, Dave, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and the company you run and give us a picture for what your purpose in life is. That would be great. 

Dave  02:14
First of all, I have been in this business for over 40 years. 

Tim  02:19
Yeah, wealth management and financial advisory.

Dave  02:23
Yeah, and insurance and I started with, years ago, I started with Manulife. And it's funny because I went with Manulife because they were focused on money products, like financial planning, and that really attracted me. Prior to that, I was in real estate for I had my own business in real estate for about 15 years. And I think when you go from one type of business to another, but they're both linked to financial, there's a lot of crossover of information that you maintain and or keep. And I think I've always been in the money side of things, because it intrigues me. Real Estate, you're helping people. Transitioned over into the financial services industry. And I say financial services insurance was not the hot topic at that time. It was more helping people with their money, retirement planning, things like that. And interestingly enough, I joined Manulife because they bought or developed a plan, a financial planning plan from California, Financial Profiles. It was called, and it was a dot matrix program. 

Tim 3:30
Yeah, so floppy disks? 

Dave 3:30
Well, it was a very slow process, and I to relay a story to that, I remember one time I was doing a plan for somebody, and I said, Oh, I hit the button to say, I want the whole plan. Four hours later, we finally got the plan. I actually went out for dinner and came back and it was still printing. So it shows you how things have changed, from a technology point of view. And, you know, it's interesting when you look at these things and how financial planning has become a hot topic. Before people, oh, yeah, financial planning. And there was all sorts of people that said they were financial planners. You don't want to become a product peddler, shall we say, but you want to become a financial planner, where you're looking at analyzing and helping people get reach their goals. And what financial planning does is it forces you to look at the things you want to do, where you are in life, what direction you want to go, family, everything else, and then you plan accordingly.

Tim  04:23
What's one or two of the most meaningful transformations you've seen families that you've helped make.

Dave  04:30
Most of my clients have been with me for over 25 years. And interestingly enough, when you look at where they started from and where they are now, and I'm not the magic guy, it's just that when you have the information, you can make the right decisions, or hopefully in guidance. And that's all you know, a financial planner isn't guide, shall we say, guide of going through life. And you, you provide people with information, and then they can discuss those options and choices that you they have to do or and help them along the way. Sometimes it's just a couple, then it becomes a couple and some children, and goes from there. And yeah, some of the couples I started with that had children, the children are now clients of mine too. So yeah, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing business. And I like that, because I think, and that's the teacher in me, because I taught a couple of years. So yeah.

Tim  05:20
You know your client set is really interesting, because you've been with some of them from the very beginning all the way through to the very end and you know, for us, and we've been clients of yours for years after we were introduced by a good friend, and you spend your days, you have the focus to spend your days looking at what options are out there, what movements are out there? What needs to be done keeping an eye on that aspect of my and my wife's life, you're calling me and saying, Hey, this is happening. This is going on. We need to move something around, or we need to plan for something in the future. And so you're able to devote your time to keeping an eye on things for people where they may not have the time or the expertise to keep that that attention as high as it needs to be. My clients, even this week, when they're facing challenges of leadership and team, they may never have dealt with that challenge before. They're not an expert at getting out of that issue. I deal with it 30 times a year, and so I specialize in some of the issues that they call me in for If your faucet is leaking, you call a plumber, right? You don't call the local baker or something. That's what I notice for sure. Do you think captures it?

Dave  06:32
As a planner, I'm not a chartered accountant, I'm not a lawyer, but I think the people that are in need of financial advice are the business owners, the self employed and people that have family situations and that getting the right advice is so important when you're planning for your future. And I think that's the problem. Is most people don't think far enough ahead. They think ahead, but they don't they think about next year, but they don't think about five years, ten years, and where am I going to be and making a big financial plan when you're 30 years old. I stopped doing the big, complex financial plans because there's too many changes between age 40 and 60 in retirement years or 30 and and 50. And you can do a plan, but it doesn't have to be a complex plan. Yeah, and I think that's the key is you gotta, you just gotta have a direction and understand things, understand terminology. What's an RSP, what's a RIF? These are things that we I think every business has their own acronyms. What's your GDS ratio? People say GDS, well, gross debt service ratio, and then that's how they qualify you for a mortgage. Every industry has these little short forms in that, like here, in ours, we have the riff, we have the list, and people look at you, and you got to be careful, as an advisor, not to utilize these term, this terminology, without explaining what it is, because if you say it and they don't understand it, they're not listening from there on.

Tim  08:00
So that's that brings us to a really interesting point, because, you know, again, I consider you one of my close friends now at this point. And for those of you that can't pick this up in Dave's voice, because you sound spry and youthful, and you are, you know, you're the same age as my dad. You'll have a big birthday coming up this year, right? And when we talk on the phone or whatever, to me, age is irrelevant. It's trust and respect and mutual interest in the other person's well being and all of those things that kind of come into play. And a big part of that for us, Dave has been that you come to the house when we need to be thinking a certain way. You keep us on a plan and on a track, and you help us see things differently. You help us consider all of our options. You put everything on the table. And you do this in such a personal way, because one of your one of your habits, is to always be doing this in really close proximity. It's not something that's kept at a distance. It's very intimate. And we're having coffee and we're sitting around the table, and it's…

Dave  09:08
Tim, I'll interrupt you there. That's why I come to your house for a free cup of coffee. There you go. 

Tim  09:12
There you go. Free cup of coffee. Oh, I hope our coffee is all right. But when you think about that, and you think about the value that you can bring to somebody by having them get out of their bubble and thinking long term, right? That's one of the biggest benefits that you've given us, is allowing us to take a much longer view. And in the middle of COVID, when things are a little bit hot, rational outside perspective, focus on the larger picture here. Don't get too bent about the little moves. What kind of problems in the world or with families are associated with that thinking too close, thinking too much in the short term.

Dave  09:50
I'll give you a good example, in the tech bubble. When it was back in the 2000s, that tech bubble we talk about it, tech stocks were just i. Everybody wanted to be in tech. And I had, I think I might have, might have told you this before, I had a client who was a GIC client, and we finally got him involved in some insurance company segregated funds, which are like mutual funds, because of the guarantees that they provide. That was a big step for him. And I always remember he was there for years, and when the tech market was going crazy, he says, oh, we were making like 16% in on our on his investments, and he wanted to move because his neighbor next door was in tech, and he was making 24% so he moved all his money into tech. I didn't do it. I said, I think you're crazy. And as we know, the tech market went from $1 to 20 cents, in some cases, some of those stocks, and it was a short term thinking, talking about long term, short term. One thing if people can remember, the one thing if they can remember, is the rule of 72 and the rule of 72 is, if you take 72 divided by the interest rate that you earn on your investment, that's how long it takes your money to double. So if I get 10% as an example, it's going to double in 7.2 years. Yeah, if I get 5% Oh, guess what? Now it's double the time. If I get 2% I get, Oh, here you go, the banks give me 2% of my on my savings account. It's going to take your money 30 plus years to double at 2% and we're only talking a difference of, Oh, I get 7% that's 10 years. I'm going to use 8% as an example. So every nine years, my money doubles. So if I put in $10,000.09 years later, and I get 9% I get nine years, my might becomes $28,000, it's the next nine years with 20 becomes 40, and then 80, it's a doubling of the doubling. And I think that's what people forget, is it's, that's the long term thinking. And if you can, you don't need 50% returns. You don't need 40% because now you gotta add in the one thing that really affects everything is the risk factor. Yeah, okay, I got a picture in my office, and it's actually, I think it's down Pebble Beach. It's the one where they shoot the golf ball the holes across the ocean. There Was You gotta get it across, and the bottom of it is risk. I'm looking at it now, and you look at these things, you think, oh, yeah, because people don't sometimes look at the risk side. I'm not saying people don't make more money in short term, but don't put all your money. 

Tim  12:34
I think there's a crossover there to life, and that is in terms of Jen and I, when it comes to either finances or what we do more broadly, in the things we choose to engage in, you want to have things in your life that are very solid, that are foundational, that give you that low or or controlled risk environment, so that you have bandwidth to take some risks in other areas of your life. So you know, when it comes to investment, I have a portion of my portfolio that is in startup companies and things which are a little higher risk, but the stability of my long term investments gives me the ability to play over in those spaces without feeling overly exposed, right? It gives me a little bit of freedom. And it's the same thing that financial stability that we've created with you, allows me to take the risks that are associated with being an entrepreneur and being a business owner and investing in my business and making plays in my business, which other people might find very scary that don't want to take those risks, and so balancing that kind of net risk is part of that control part of our life that allows us to then be free and creative over in other parts of our life where we need to be free and creative.

Dave  13:59
Yeah, I think you have to ask yourself, Where did you go through life? You got to say, okay, is my investment an investment, or is my investment a gamble? And when it becomes a gamble, the risk factor goes up considerably. We all do this, but you don't do it with 100% or 80%, 50% of your money. You want to play the game. As I always tell people, you want to play the stock market. You take some money and go play it. It becomes a gamble when you're taking I gotta double my money overnight. I'm gonna bet this one horse, and he's gonna. It's a hot tip.

Tim  14:31
Just this past week, I used the phrase again when I was doing some career work with an executive. We were talking about getting stuck in waiting for someone else to promote you, hoping that somebody notices you. That, to me, is a gamble, right? That you're hoping that other people are going to do something in the same way, that if you're not enjoying your job and you jump and you don't know what you're moving into, or you're not leaving with a feeling of success from wherever you jumped off. You're playing the career lottery, and longer term thinking says we have to slow some things down. We have to really analyze what all of the inputs are and then make the best possible strategic moves to lower the risk overall. It doesn't mean you can't do exciting things. It doesn't mean you can't take risks, but you do it with as much data and as much controlled risk as possible, I think there's great lessons that transfer over to how we think about the game of money and investment and financial literacy and all of those things, when we start to apply those same lessons to our life. 

Dave  15:37
Yeah, and I think there's been a lot of stuff written books and that on people that win the lotteries, yeah, and you look at it and you say, a lot of those people don't have the money in five years. They win big money, and they don't do the planning. They don't, a million dollars. You can't retire on a million dollars. As a kid, I used to watch the program The Millionaire on TV, and a million dollars, back 40 years ago, was a lot of money. I had a client that they inherited $900,000 and of course, one year, if you can believe it, they spent $100,000 in travel costs. They started to listen to me because I said, Well, you're just going to burn it up because you can't expect to double your money replace that type of usage in one year. Hey, you want to have a travel budget, that's fine, but stick to the budget. I mean, I always like to tell people you want to, we like cruising. And you know, when you do it, they got six month cruises. Those cruises are $200,000 people buy those tickets, but those are people that have a lot more. And 200,000 is probably like 20,000 for the average person. They use that money because they're going to, obviously, they're going to be out traveling around, doing spending, and they're not just spending 200,000 on the cruise those cruise ships sell out. But I look at cost of living things like that, we're going to go through this with the tariffs and everything. I think this is going to cause a great wake up call for a lot of people. Yeah, they're going to have to start looking at the deals that are out there. You know, are you going to go out and buy oranges if they're going to cost you 10 bucks a pound or whatever? I don't think so. So these are things that people have to start looking at. Investing money. I'm going to say, Well, okay, don't tell me. I'm going in for lower risk. I'm going to invest in my GIC. Well, that's a risk. Yeah, right away. It's a risk because the risk is you're going to run out of money, yeah, because you can't survive on a 2% rate of return when inflation is three. And you can't survive if you're 40 years old. Putting into GICs, the key, I think, to any investing is diversification, and diversification simply means that I got my money all over the world. You've got a whole blend. Don't get into the risky diversifications. 

Tim  17:53
Yes, I think it's a great segue into thinking about the real risk of decisions. And again, this is one perspective I'd love to ask you about right now. One thing that we know is happening is perhaps people invested and are able to retire right now. And so you and I had lots of talks around retire at 60 or retire at 65 and we're seeing lots of strong data now coming out about the increased dementia risk when people are bored and when they're not active and feeling useful, even having suitable amounts of stress, and definitely a notion of having purpose and a community and people that hang around is really important. And taking that decision that this is when people retire, decision, this is what we should do. This is what society says we, when we should put ourselves out to pasture. That's never been your game. For the people that are out there listening. Drop that knowledge on them. Drop what you told me about the thought of staying sharp, challenging yourself to help other people. 

Dave  18:59
I think working and keeping I'm not saying it's going to prevent dementia, but it forces you to remember things. It forces you to be active, forces you to interact. And I think the highest risk retirees, if you can believe it, are the police and firemen. Because they have a high, high stress job, they retire, and they sit retire, and they sit at home, watch TV and bang, and the mind goes, I'll be working on the day I die, as I said, and I don't mind that, because you feel you're interacting, you're you're alive. Let's put it this way, you see at Home Depot, you see all these people that are retired and they're working there. When you take an Uber, I like taking an Uber because you're talking to people that are, yeah, they're working and everything you're getting life stories from these people, yeah, really interesting to hear the life stories of different people.

Tim  19:49
Any year I have clients, probably three to five a year are people that are on to second careers. They're 60-65 or older. They've retired. And it's hasn't worked for them. They're starting businesses. They're entering into consulting. Often the story is that they finished working when they were told they should finish working, when they were prepared to finish working, and they're bored. My clients are primarily very driven people. They're leaders of organizations. They're people that are not satisfied with kind of mailing it in and taking it as it comes. And you're not going to suddenly become somebody who is going to be satisfied with a boring existence or a purposeless existence after you retire. And so pay attention to who you are now, there are things that people misidentify as, stuff that'll never change when it actually can change, and there's things that people think will change when it actually won't change, for instance, your personality or your drive, and in some way, shape or form, you're not going to suddenly change who you are, right? Some of those things are pretty baked in. We've come quite a ways here. We've talked about the lessons that we can capture from long term thinking. We have talked about how important it is to think this way, Assuredly when it comes to our wealth and when it comes to life and planning and family, what do you want people to challenge themselves to do? After listening to this.

Dave  21:25
You got a plan around what they have. What is your lifestyle? What is your family situation? Do you have kids? Do you care about your grandkids? Are these factors so we put away 150 bucks a month for the grandkids when they hit age 60 or 65 there's a half a million dollars in access to cash flow. And you know, there's different things, you know, you say, oh, inflation, Oh, that's too much money. 

Tim 21:49
150, bucks a month is too much. 

Dave 21:50
It's not too much more than 10 bucks or a cup of coffee every day. It's 300 bucks a month, right there. If you don't do that, how much you're going to have when the kids hit 65 you can save money, and if you're willing to adapt, I'm not going to buy steak every day. Well, I'll buy it if it's on sale once in a while, but I don't think everybody should have steak every day anyway, so it's not good for your body.  

Tim  22:14
So you help people plan from a financial perspective. I help them plan from a career perspective. I think it's always hilarious that when I ask somebody they've spent more time planning one vacation or buying one car than they've ever put into where are they going in this life, making decisions, looking at what we're starting with, and mobilizing the assets we've got and the choices we can make towards the future that we want to have.

Dave  22:44
You're a good example, Tim, you were a chef. You did things and you changed. You've changed careers, and you were good, but then you say, Do I want to do this for the rest of my life? And you made a change, and I made a change. I taught for a couple of years, and I made a change. If people look ahead and say, Okay, I gotta, I gotta change, make a change in my direction, because otherwise, if I keep going this way, I'm going to fall off the cliff. 

Tim  23:08
Yeah, yeah. Or somebody else can decide when I fall off the cliff. 

Dave  23:12
Well, as I've said to you, and other people say, I'll live to, I want to live to 125 because I want to see them, uh, grow up. But, yeah, that's not going to happen. But it's think that way. Maybe it does. 

Tim  23:22
Yeah, and some people start with more privilege than others, or better situations than others. But wherever you're starting, having a plan and being intentional versus leaving it up to chance, you'll do better off regardless of your starting position. We do this little game here where we play a hopscotch game between guests. In a previous episode, we had Jared Vandermeer, who was a social media expert, join us, and he lobbed a question, which we're going to play for you now that I'd like you to respond to.

Jared  23:52
Let's talk screen time. I challenge you to look at your screen time on your phone, if you're comfortable, share your screen time with the audience and then let us know what you're doing to manage it, if anything, at this current time.

Dave  24:05
I, first of all, I probably don't know my screen time because I use my phone what's changed, and I'm not making excuses. This is, this is my diary, you might say, and everything in it, because I…

Tim  24:17
Yeah, same thing. It's our office on our hip.  

Dave  24:21
It's a tool. Yeah, it's not. Now, I would probably say, I we talk screen time. I'd like to say, Okay, let's What's your screen time in front of that TV? Yes, to me, it's true screen time. And yeah, I say there's people that spend hours, an hour in front of a TV and watching, what do they watch? Nothing. Oh, I'm going to watch the news, their news crazy or whatever. And I watch TV, but what I really enjoy is, if you can learn, even my grandkids like sitting there watching a cartoon is one thing. Sitting there and watching a program that is a learning, use it as a learning tool. The Smithsonian on TV is free use now, and the history and things like, that's what. To learn. That's good screen time. Yeah, okay, that's like reading it. That's a video book, almost, because you're seeing history and actual photos and things like that. That's good screen time watching some movie. I know people that they're movie buffs, and they go, that's all they watch. And I think you gotta differentiate. There's nothing wrong with screen time, we see it now how it's come into the educational system. The kids can watch it, but it's not watching cartoons. It's a learning tool. 

Tim  25:29
Is there quality screen time versus something that's keeping you from investing that time in better ways? We should be a little more discerning when we say screen time to are there things that can help us grow? So I love that answer, Dave.

Dave  25:46
Yeah, I think it's the old adage, like a picture's worth 1000 words. You get good screen time. You've got 10,000 words, and the memory of a picture is a lot greater than the memory reading from a book. I'm not saying you don't remember. It's just that the picture is there and you can visualize, and if you can visualize something down the road in 10 years, five years. I mean, I can, like I said to you earlier, I remember that movie The Millionaire, and I can, you can almost picture some of the old TV. And I can't remember the guy's name or what. But the thing is, it imprints, is there, but the book isn't the same as a picture as that picture. This is why this has become a lot more usable. Problem is they've let the use of this not why they ban it in schools. Is because the kids are saying, well, I'm texting out Sally over there in the other side of the room, and we're going back and forth and things like that. That's not the intended use. Whereas, if they said go into Google this and Google dinosaurs, will say, you know, if you see, you know, a video on dinosaurs and how they lived and things like that, it sinks in. It's an impression that kids suddenly say, Oh yeah, I see that pterodactyl. And now I know what the pterodactyl is. My kids, my grandkids, when they you know, we go to the drunk Heller, and they know the names of the dinosaurs, and they're six years old, for crying out love, if you can bring that type of screen time in early ages, it really helps them down the road in terms of reading and things like that. 

Tim  27:17
In the 15th century, intellectuals and religious leaders were fearful that, because of the printing press, books would overload the population with information and ideas. And there was a scientist called Conrad Gessner. He lived around 1550 in there. He warned that the flood of information was going to be confusing and harmful coming from books that most people couldn't handle it. And we have to think of the quality of information that are pulling in the intended use. And so we have to, you know, get really chunky on what's the what is the good use of this tool, this new technology, and what is the harmful use, and don't confuse and conflate the two. And make sure that we're being pretty honest when we consider these things.

Dave  28:08
Am I going to read a book about dinosaurs, or am I going to show pictures of dinosaurs and talk about it, okay? And this is one thing people should think about. Talk about visualization. One sugar cube is roughly four grams. The number of sugar cubes on different things. The highest one was the Tim Hortons candy cane hot chocolate.  

Tim  28:28
Yeah, how many sugar cubes? 

Dave 28:31
16

Tim 28:31
16?

Dave 28:32
In one cup. 

Tim 28:33
Yeah, so that’s…

Dave  28:33
64.

Tim 28:33
64 grams… that’s  a quarter of a cup. So you don't, are you gonna put a, would you sit down with a spoon or a straw and drink a quarter cup of sugar? Probably not.

Dave  28:46
But, and so when I look at when I look at when I go, if I go shopping, and I look at the gram, because being diabetic, you gotta see how much is the sugar. I mean, I can visualize when I say what it says, 16 grams of sugar. I say, hold it. Like one cookie is 16 grams of sugar. It's like a muffin is 30 grams of sugar. You say, What is 30 grams? I can tell you what 30 grams is, it's seven and a half sugar cubes. I say, Oh, crap, I can't eat that. 

Tim  29:11
You’re gonna be a lot better off translate

Dave  29:13
Things that sort of, you can remember so to speak.

Tim  29:16
Yeah, yeah. We used to say speak in people's currency, because working with, if I'm working with one of my very first regional management jobs with was with a large scale food manufacturer, and I would be talking about waste, and if you're talking in dollars and cents, that didn't mean a lot to people on the line. But if I said we're throwing out the equivalent of two dump trucks full of dough every week. That's what we're after. That's what we're chasing. And that meant something to them, because they could visualize a dump truck full of dough. Okay, Dave, last question, what would be something in life that you would be one business that you would be just curious about asking a stranger, that you could get some out of the box thinking with something you're interested in related to life or work or whatnot. What would you ask somebody? What would be a question that would be on your mind?

Dave  30:14
What are your goals in life here that you want to achieve? Because that determines what road you go down, that's your road map. What is your goal in life? What's the most important thing in life that you feel is something you would want to do? You got to be able to visualize things that comes to planning and everything else you know. And if you can do that, if you apply that same concept in your life and financial and everything else, if you know what the goal is, the quality falls into place, that’s the philosophy of life. 

Tim  30:43
Well thanks very much for spending this time with me, Dave. Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Travel has been a part of my work for 25 years. For the past nine years, I have treated every business trip like a stay at a sanitorium - a health retreat.

While life at home can be beautifully chaotic—kids, meals, schedules, the constant juggle—travel offers something rare: control. It’s a pocket of time where I can reset, simplify, and sharpen my focus.

When I’m away, I find I can fast or eat more strictly than I can at home. With kids in the house, I don’t always have 100% say over what ends up in the fridge. On the road, it becomes a chance for extreme focus—on health, clarity, and productivity.

I’ve always appreciated periods of simplicity and even austerity. Maybe it’s the ex-chef in me who knows that good food doesn’t need to be complicated—or that success doesn’t have to look fancy. I’ve been gluten-free for nearly 20 years due to a diagnosed wheat allergy, and business trips help me keep things clean, intentional, and dialed in.
​
Clients benefit, too. A 4–5 day trip usually runs me under $100 in food expenses. Some are surprised- they’re used to consultants expensing $60 dinners. But for me, that kind of simplicity is part of the appeal.

​What are your practices?

Here are my rules when travelling for work:

1. Choose a Convenient Location
   I walk and walk. After 25 years of pain and then the relief of a bilateral knee replacement, walking is medicine. Staying within walking distance of clients lets me stretch my legs between meetings, clear my head, and stay grounded in my body. It’s an easy way to build movement into the day without even trying.
2. Prioritize Fitness Facilities
   Even a modest hotel gym can be enough. I once tipped the scales at 330lbs. I’m still beefy, sure, but I’m 100lbs lighter now. Staying active has to be non-negotiable. A road to walk, some dumbbells, and the right mindset keep me on track. As Erin Murphy on my team says - 20 minutes of intentional movement, every day.
3. The Judgemental Towel.
   Stretching and bodyweight exercises are not optional post-knee surgery when staying mobile matters. I push back coffee tables and lay out a big towel. Now, I have to pay a tax to that towel every time I kick off my shoes, find myself bored, worried, or confused - A quick sun salutation, “Scoobie's Rotisserie Workout Functional Core Workout” or 25 pushups - pay the towel.
4. A Decent Pool
   I don’t own a pool, so when I am away, I use it. It’s a fluid-flushing reset. If there are no kids, I do a tank walk, or a few laps. If there are screaming kids, I tread water. If I’m totally alone and working a problem, I’ll often switch off most of the lights, swim and think through the really tough stuff.
5. Proximity to a Grocery Store
   As a gluten-free ex-chef, I know my way around a grocery store. I’ll grab box salads, dill pickles, fruit, hard-boiled eggs—clean, safe staples that don’t require cooking. It’s faster, cheaper, and healthier than restaurant roulette.
6. Fridge and Microwave
   This is key. A fridge gives me control. I can store fresh groceries, hydrate properly, and avoid last-minute, low-quality meals. When I’m fasting or sticking to a specific food rhythm, this makes all the difference.
7. Stay Hydrated
   I usually buy a large water bottle once, then refill it. Daily, men and women should aim for 3 litres and 2 litres a day, respectively. Sounds simple, but when you’re pulling 12-to 14-hour workdays (which I actually enjoy—I’m wired to hyper-focus), Admittedly, I forget to drink water - I like it, but I get distracted, so I need it in sight.
8. Continental Breakfast? Horde Staples.
   I don’t enjoy breakfast… other than strong black coffee. However, I appreciate it when hotels offer a complimentary breakfast. Being an old hostel hopper, I tend to make friends with the person running the breakfast nook. Hard-boiled eggs, oatmeal, or fruit are often ferried up to my room for snacks or lunches. (I skip the “waffle machine,” syrups, pastries, and sugary cereals.) I choose my regular hotels with this service in mind. At one of my regular hotels, the breakfast lady always offers to make me an egg salad sandwich, apples, yogurt, cottage cheese, and tomatoes “for later.” I usually take her up on that offer at least once per trip.
9. Ask for Real Cutlery and Dishes
   Eating a salad with a plastic fork from a takeout box? Not ideal. Ask the front desk for proper cutlery and crockery, and sharp paring knives and cutting boards are often used as well. It’s a small gesture that adds a sense of calm and order to my routine.
10. Bring a Micro Backpack
    I travel with a packable backpack. We actually give these away as our central piece of swag. It’s perfect for hauling groceries, extra layers, or a quick hike. Lightweight, simple, efficient.
11. Respect Your Circadian Rhythm
    I get natural light early, avoid screens late, and anchor my body to the local time zone as quickly as possible. It helps with sleep, digestion, energy, and overall clarity.
12. TV Stays Off
    I never turn on the hotel TV. The quiet helps me decompress. Sometimes it’s silence, sometimes it’s a podcast or audiobook—but no noise just for the sake of noise.
13. Open the Window for Fresh Air
    I will if I can get even a crack of fresh air into the room. If not, I’ll step outside in the morning for a quick walk or just a breath of real air. It makes the whole room—and my head—feel clearer. I tend to leave the AC off and let my body adjust.
14. DIY Hot and Cold Therapy
    I travel with a towel and a clean garbage bag. Wrap the damp towel in the bag, and you’ve got an instant cold pack (freeze it) or heat pack (microwave it). Great for sore knees or tight muscles. Just remember to dismantle it before you leave—housekeeping doesn’t need to find your forgotten science experiment.
15. Active Business Wear
    I’m a facilitator, so I need to look sharp—but I also dress for movement. Approach pants or technical slacks that stretch and breathe and let me stay professional without sacrificing comfort. I’m often on my feet, and my clothes need to keep up.
16. Pack Light, Travel Fast
    One Carry On and Laptop Backpack. Minimal gear - everything has a purpose. I have a regular packing list and can pack in 20 minutes. Fewer decisions, faster movement, and less stress. It’s a physical and mental strategy.
17. Don’t Rent a Car—Walk Instead
    I don’t rent cars anymore - I Uber or taxi close to where the work is, and then I walk at least one direction each day. It cuts costs, simplifies logistics, and gives me space to think. You see more when you’re on foot, and the day unfolds at a human pace. Walking is an excellent capstone to intense interactions, and it often sets me up to be incredibly productive in the evening.
18. I Spoil Myself—My Way
    I’ve learned ways to feel like I’m indulging that align with my goals. One of my favourite rituals? On day one, I stock up on a variety of smaller boxed salads—different flavours, textures, and dressings. I’ll mix and match, usually having two different types at supper. It feels spontaneous and luxurious. It makes me feel like I’m living the high life while still eating like a star- No room service required.
19. No Booze
    I typically don’t drink while I travel. Occasionally, I will indulge at celebratory events if there is a good scotch or stellar wine, but I keep it to one. Even at social events or conferences with an open bar, I usually opt for a discreet, non-alcoholic option. Others can relax and not feel judged while I baby my liver and sleep better. These are clients; after all, I am paid to think clearly.
20. Don’t Act Like a Prat
    This one matters. I don’t announce what I’m doing or make a thing of it. Clients are in their regular routines, while I have a repreive from many of the domestic and personal responsibilities at home. Nobody needs to hear how you are dialled in. You're in a bubble, so keep your (temporary) feelings of superiority to yourself. Move quietly.

Final Thoughts

Business travel doesn’t need to drain you; you can return way ahead. These are the tips that work for me.

We don’t have many chances to impose a structured, quiet, focused environment in this life, so when I have it, I treat it as a gift to reassert myself. For 9 years, I have come back from trips feeling healthier, focused, ready for more— not depleted.

Finding clarity, walking more, eating clean, working hard, and resting well; disciplinedd business travel can be a boon to your continued success.

Only Carry What Counts. Be well.
​
Tim

It’s a new age. Ai has become a game-changer in how professionals (like me) approach providing value, networking, brand development, and task management. Discussions surrounding Ai continue to evolve, and so do the opinions about its appropriate use. I wanted to explore key themes and insights from a recent debate on Ai’s role in these domains, along with personal reflections on how Ai has transformed my workflow—not by replacing effort but by enhancing progress and creativity.
Still, there are fears, and many of them are not unfounded. It reminds me of what the Borg Queen in Star Trek: First Contact:

“We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”
​
Resistance is alive and well.

I Paretoed The Cautions Peers Were Stating Regarding Using Ai To Support A Social Leadership Footprint

I conducted a quick and dirty study** to establish a rough quantification. I drew a sample of 702 LinkedIn Post comments that voiced distinct concerns. My topic areas were related to the risks associated with using Ai to help build or maintain a thought leadership role: social networking, community validation, relationships, and brand development. Here’s an attributes breakdown of the contributor sentiments ranked by prevalence:

1. The Risk of Ai Authorship – 40% – The concern is the over-reliance on Ai to generate content entirely, turning professionals into passive participants rather than active creators. This approach risks losing originality and turning unique voices into generic outputs.
2. Concerns About Authenticity – 25% – Over-reliance on Ai leads to cookie-cutter content, making it harder to build trust and genuine connections.
3. Originality and Identity Risks – 15% –⠀Excessive automation can dilute individuality, eroding the unique voice of brands or professionals.
4. Overuse and Misuse – 10% – Using Ai for shortcuts often sacrifices creativity and depth, resulting in impersonal and uninspired outcomes.
5. Ethical and Philosophical Concerns – 10% – Delegating creativity and decision-making to Ai raises concerns about devaluing human effort and critical thinking.

​**Recognize there is implied bias, of course; the analysis is influenced by selection and perspective biases, being focused on LinkedIn users, willing to comment, following the subject and who express concerns. It observes the cautious side, prioritizing creativity and authenticity while underrepresenting other perspectives on Ai’s scalability and efficiency in other work areas.

Let Me Tell You About Ai in Action And Changes To My Creative Flow

​Ai has radically changed how I apply myself—not by reducing effort but by channelling my energies. This has quickened iteration, focus, and editing. My approach to work is highly iterative: I reach conclusions, build on them, and refine them through dozens, if not hundreds, of iterations. Here’s how Ai fits into my process:

1. Jump-Starting Creativity: Starting from a blank slate can be intimidating, but Ai helps me push past that quickly. Whether it’s drafting, formatting, or summarizing large data sets, Ai provides the initial push to get things moving (and saves me from staring at a blank screen).
2. Processing and Organizing Information: By summarizing and validating data, Ai really speeds organizing of raw thoughts so they can be developed and understood. It helps me focus on conclusions and strategy rather than organization mechanics.
3. Iterative Development: While the average task still takes hours, Ai enables me to iterate faster. The final pass is always my voice, ideas, and judgements—Ai never replaces my creative control.
4. Maintaining Authenticity: When it comes to correspondence or engagement, I don’t use Ai. I’d rather be authentic, even if I’m rough around the edges. Building trust and meaningful relationships requires a personal touch.

For thought leaders, Ai is not about being lazy; it’s about being efficient and strategic. Ai can supercharge progress and creativity for those willing to put in the work. The challenge lies in using it responsibly and intentionally to enhance, not replace, the human element that drives authentic connections and meaningful outcomes.
As we build a working relationship with new Ai tools, Let’s not expect Ai to represent our values and manage trusting relationships. (I sometimes worry the future could involve Ai writing and reading everything, leaving humans passive and out of the equation entirely— I have that mental picture of the characters from Wall-E!)

Aim to simplify life without compromising authority.
PS: Does anyone else say “please” and “sorry” when writing prompts to Ai, or is that just me? (could be a Canadian thing)
My plan: Stay authentic, Stay innovative, and Don’t be LaiZY.

Episode Summary: In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim chats with marketing expert and content creator Jared VanderMeer as he shares his proven approach to long-term brand success. He emphasizes the power of a well-structured touch point cycle, where consistent and authentic content builds trust and drives engagement. If you’re ready to shift your mindset from instant wins to building a brand that truly resonates, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you make it happen.

Episode Notes
In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim chats with marketing expert and content creator Jared VanderMeer as he shares his proven approach to long-term brand success. He emphasizes the power of a well-structured touch point cycle, where consistent and authentic content builds trust and drives engagement. Instead of chasing quick ROI, Jared urges businesses to focus on lifetime customer value and to track meaningful metrics like watch time and impressions over vanity likes. With a 90-day commitment to content creation and a strategic marketing budget, businesses can create lasting connections that lead to sustainable growth.

Tim and Jared dive into the myths of social media success, the importance of storytelling, and the balance between quality and quantity. They explore why brands should showcase real-life applications of their products instead of aiming for perfection, and why avoiding shortcuts is key to long-term impact. If you’re ready to shift your mindset from instant wins to building a brand that truly resonates, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you make it happen. 

About Jared VanderMeer
Jared VanderMeer is a digital marketing specialist, public speaker, and entrepreneur. He’s also the creative muse and pioneering spirit behind Magnolias Consulting Group in Canada. From podcasting and videos to blogs and books, Jared is dedicated to driving home the importance of value-based marketing in our modern digital era.
If there’s one thing that defines JV above all else, it’s being a Canadian content maker. In the past few years, he has poured all his effort into expanding JV content into all the formats technology has made possible. As an agency owner, JV helps clients grow their businesses on a daily basis, but as a content creator, he takes that goal a step further by sharing his knowledge and experience with brands on a larger scale. 
JV's debut book If You Sell, You Lose is a step-by-step guide on how to add value to your brand through your digital marketing. It’s just one piece of the larger vision Jared holds for marketers, brand and business owners, and startups. You can also grab free guides, templates, content maps, and more at www.jaredvandermeer.com.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• TransRockies Moab Run the Rocks
• Near Me Victoria
• If You Sell, You Lose by Jared VanderMeer

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Jared VanderMeer: 

• Website: jaredvandermeer.com
• Instagram: @wild.vandermeer
• Instagram: @jared_vandermeer
• TikTok: jared.vandermeer

Transcript
Jared  0:01  
What I try to do is get leaders and individuals to understand that you have to think about it just slightly differently. Create a touch point cycle. Create a brand, validate that brand, create a whole bunch of touch points in a circle, and when the timing's right, you're going to capture that customer. You're going to capture that lifetime value. Very, very few, I would say under 2% of leaders are thinking long term, lifetime value rather than ROI, and that's what we want to try to change the conversation to.

​Tim  0:33  
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to the 51st episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 
Tim 1:06
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Once again, we're joined by a very eclectic and interesting leader, somebody with a perspective that I am sure none of you will have. This is my good friend. And actually, I guess, family by marriage. Jared VanderMeer, Jared, thanks for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. 
Jared 1:26
Thanks for having me, Tim, thanks.
Tim 1:28
You and I have a history of long talks about business. We annoy our families when we get together for Christmas or Thanksgiving or whatever, because we volunteer for doing the dishes. And then we sit there and we workshop stuff, and we dig deep. And boy, for anybody who isn't a leadership geek or a business geek like you and me, they're all waiting for us to, you know, hurry back and play cards or something. And a lot of people just don't get it, I think right or feel left out, maybe. 
Jared  1:57  
You get addicted to business and you get addicted to these types of things, and we just love talking about it. So when we get that moment to sit down over dishes and talk about it, we just get excited, and we just can't stop so getting back to the other stuff is secondary to getting through our business chat. 
Tim  2:14  
And we've always had a really great split. We can be family, and I think that's really important, and then we can switch it on, and we've worked together, and we've run contracts together, and we've done some amazing things that have been recognized very widely for clients that we've joined forces on. And so that's always been a ton of fun, and it's such a joy to work with somebody that's as passionate about what they do. And so getting into that, I want to really open people up to who you are and what you do, because you've had an amazing transformation over the last eight years, right? So why don't you say it in your own words?
Jared  2:50  
So, I like to say now that I'm a professional creator, and what that essentially is, is I make content across all online platforms that is designed to hold attention in today's world. Currently, I have 2.9 million followers across platforms on multiple pages, including my wildlife page and my creative photography page. And a couple years ago, I wrote a book called “If You Sell, You Lose.” So, author of “If You Sell, You Lose,” digital marketing kind of theory book, all of my concepts and practices went into that one and I just took that book, took everything I put into it, and applied it to the real world, and took those concepts out to prove them. And have had a lot of fun over the last couple years going out there and and making content for the the modern digital landscape. 
Tim  3:36  
When we think about one of the key attributes of a leader, that they make well informed decisions, evidence based decisions, and this is something that I've always really loved about you. And your approach is that you're not just going out there and pitching an idea, you're testing an idea. And sometimes you take years to test an idea out. And when I share your theories with other people, and when I show them your pages and what you're doing, because again, when we started working together, you were very much focused on marketing, and that was in sort of the more broadly based digital marketing space. But now you're not simply a person that claims to have done it, but you're doing it again and again, and you're doing it repeatedly, and you stood up the Near Me brand, which you know, again, for those of you that don't know, check it out Near Me Victoria. And I think you've got Near Me Edmonton now, is that correct? 
Jared 4:32
We're starting in Victoria, pretty hard, and then we're going to move it across Canada from there. 
Tim 4:35
Yeah. And so this, this is a great showcase channel and whatnot. But whether it's that or your wildlife photography piece. How do you create this kind of following? You're really decoding that and demonstrating a process to get there.
Jared  4:49  
I think the misconceptions about social media and creating content for marketing purposes in today's world really comes down to that, if you. Just make a couple good things. Success can come to you, and then people do it and they give up because it's hard, it's difficult. But the secret to social media and building content and building a brand today is there's really no secret. If you work hard and make lots of content and make good content, and make it in this authentic way that people connect with then your brand will find success. It's an automatic that the algorithm will find you your customer base. And it's so simple, but I think people over complicate it, leaders over complicate it, and all they got to do is break it down a little bit and they'll start to see the growth that they've been dreaming of, that they've been hoping for.
Tim  5:40  
We talk about that trust triangle, and I talk about it constantly on the show here. You know it's it's the presence of logic and authenticity and empathy. And when you talk about good content, or when we're dealing with a leadership brand, and we need to take somebody who's not necessarily interested in being a social thought leader, but they need to be a thought leader in an organization. You need to connect with people on things that they're interested in and more they're interested in you and who you are. You've taught me that that, like that authenticity piece is so important. And then from the logic piece, the consistency and getting out there and getting in volume and whatnot. And then really that stuff that resonates with people. When you know you're with a creator, that the stuff they're doing just really brings some positive feeling and positive addition to your life. How important that is. So I guess what I would say is, what gets in their way, what's the thing that they think is important that really isn't? 
Jared  6:43  
I’ve seen pretty much everything, and I think what people forget about when they're trying to build a brand is that the people that are buying their products are regular people. They want to see it working in their lives. They want to see that service or product doing what you say it's going to do. And what brands and leaders get caught up on in our era is this idea that everything has to be made picture perfect. And you see so many of the brands that were built in the millennial era starting to fall apart and starting to not do well and not get the reach. And the reason is, is they haven't adopted the ability to make content quick enough they haven't adopted the ability to go out and show off an authentic part of a business, and the audiences today are not able to resonate with that in any way. And I'm a very analytical person. I like looking at the data and the stats and the watch time doesn't lie. So I like to say this, if you go out and use a 4k professional camera, hire a great videographer. They come in and make a video, and they post it, and you look at the average watch time you're from everything I've seen going to be sitting around six seconds average watch time on the average commercial piece of content. If you take your phone out and record something happening at your business that day, showcasing anything. It could be the people in the lunchroom having a birthday party celebration. It could be your manufacturing process, whatever it is on a phone, and make that post. Do it a decent edit on it, in cap cut, or whatever your editing app software is, and post it. Your average watch time is going to be between eight and 10 seconds. So six seconds, professional video, eight seconds to 10 seconds with an iPhone shooting authentic content. And all that platforms want, all that marketing wants today is attention. So looking at those two things, imperfect, 10 seconds, perfect six seconds and the perfect one cost 10 times the amount. That's where leaders and businesses are getting in their way today. They they're looking for perfection. For perfection equals less attention and less watch time, and we want more watch time, so we have to find out ways to do that, and ways to get leaders to start to look at the process in a slightly different lights so that they can start to achieve the watch time and success that they want for their brands. 
Tim  9:06  
It’s funny because as you were speaking, I started thinking about the whole return to office movement and the work from home friction that a lot of places see. And you know, we know that one of the things that you lose when you go to a remote or a hybrid workplace is that you don't have that regular touch point with people. Crossing them in the hall, seeing them without even speaking to them, having a chat about your dog when you're putting the dishes away in the in the lunchroom, or whatever that is. And that makes sense to me that the volume is so important, or the frequency is so important, because that's one of the things that reinforces a relationship. Now I know for creators that I've met, we've got Tim and Renee, who've been on the show. They're thru-hikers. They've done a lot of these extended hiking programs, and they're going to be joining myself and TransRockies in Moab for the Moab Run the Rocks, so I'm going to meet them for the first time in person there. But long before I interviewed them, I was following them over COVID. And it was the frequency by which, even though they're hiking, that I could get to know them. And I felt by the time I talked to them, I remember I felt like I was talking to an old friend. I've had that experience, albeit briefly. I sat next to somebody on the plane heading out to BC, and they said, Oh, you're that, you're that guy who's, who's on that podcast, right? You do leadership or something. And I was, look, I'm not talking about myself as some sort of celebrity, but it was like it was an amazing thing how quickly they wanted to tell me their life story, right? That trust was already built. And so this is not a small thing, even for people that will never perhaps want to be an online creator. They just want to be a leader. They just want to get people around them and build trust. This frequency message is important.
Jared  10:53  
I call it the touch point cycle. So take your example of getting recognized for the first time on your trip over. You put out a whole bunch of content. You put out a whole bunch of feelers everywhere, online, through your website, through your blog, through your podcast, through LinkedIn, wherever it is. And people see it multiple times. They start to get to know you. They start to get to know your brand. But they're not going to initially, and we'll talk about this a little later. They're not going to initially say, Tim, I want to work with you. Or maybe they don't even need to work with you. Maybe you're going to be someone they know. But at the end of the day, as they get to know you and know your brand, when the timing's right, when they're either going to tell their friend about you or they need your services, then they're going to buy from you. And that's that's another thing that leaders and business owners today make the mistake with they really think that when they have a product or service that they think is great, and everyone thinks their product or service is the best thing out there, they think that everyone's ready to buy that day. So if we put out something, I people are going to come right away, the classic return on investment discussion. You spend $1 you get two back. And what I try to do is get leaders and individuals to understand that you have to think about it just slightly differently. Create a touch point cycle. Create a brand. Validate that brand, create a whole bunch of touch points in a circle, and when the timing's right, you're going to capture that customer, you're going to capture that lifetime value. And it's a struggle because very, very few, very few, a small, I would say, under 2% of leaders are thinking long term lifetime value rather than ROI. And that's what we want to try to change the conversation too.
Tim  12:41  
Help us understand, when a person comes to you, what type of state do they come in, what type of question or ask are they typically coming with before they're informed about what's the right thing to do, or what's your method, what's the type of need you see?
Jared  12:57  
Yeah, if I was to take the typical business that comes and has a discussion with me, they're usually starting to make social media content, doing it on an inconsistent basis. They do some traditional marketing, still putting some stuff out there to create their brand, doing it in a very professional, pristine way, but un-unified between their website to their social to their traditional campaign. Everything's looking a little bit different. Nothing's brought together yet and and a lot of times they're still fighting to get validated. They want more followers. They want things like that. And I have to break them down. I have to say, Okay, we're throwing all of that out the window. We're not going to care about likes, comments, follows none of that. We're going to start from the basics and then go through a step by step process that's going to take them from a very disjointed, non-focused marketing approach to a very focused marketing approach that can go after what they actually want, which is sales for their product or service.
Tim  13:59  
Before we get into that process, you're going to share a little bit with us. Why is this a thing? Why do people make this mistake? What's the misconception here?
Jared  14:09  
If you look at attention today, it's very clear. The data is very clear that attention is online and it's on social media. So the watch time on Tiktok and Instagram alone, not including even Facebook. If you're looking at it, we're talking hours of people's attention today, and that's now not designated towards newspapers. That's not designated even towards driving and seeing billboards on the side of the road, definitely not TV, other than through sports programs. So there's nowhere for people to market effectively anymore, other than through digital and people are still dedicating so much time and energy towards looking cool in that legacy aspect through some of those traditional means. And I'm not saying they can't work. What I'm saying is that's no longer where the bulk of attention is. So the reason that everyone needs to consider this specifically for the next five to ten years, is if you're looking to grow your business, you want to put your marketing dollars where the attention is, and stop worrying about things that are more about creating that brand legacy for yourself than doing something that's actually going to translate to results. So that's why I want more people to think about this, and why they should think about this, because it's just where the attention is. 
Tim  15:30  
If we think about the title of your book, “If You Sell, You Lose,” right selling and that traditional, you know, print or broadcast advertising mindset, which is all about, you know, pitch the benefits, tell them why you're unique, all of those things, very, very different from when you talk about this touch point cycle, which is, establish a relationship, establish some trust. You know, really, how do you become the subconscious thought in that person's mind when they're approaching an issue, not because of the benefits they think they're going to get out of you, but because of who they know you are. Am I getting close? Is this?
Jared  16:07  
Yeah, and I think, I think at the end of the day, all that, what we're all looking for with that, is for a brand to have enough awareness in someone's subconscious mind that when the purchasing decision needs to be made when the timing is right. They want to purchase your product, or they already feel like they know you. That's what we're all trying to achieve. It doesn't matter what business you run, all you're looking for is to try to be the choice when the timing is right for your customer, and the means that we have today to market are much more effective in finding that customer quicker, without dealing with what I call the needle in the haystack effect, where you're just throwing stuff out there and hoping that it finds the right person. And because of that, we can actually be a lot more effective with the same budget today than we could even 10 years ago. And that's what we all that's all what we all want. Now we just have to execute it.
Tim  17:01  
There's so many parallels here, because we can talk customers and when they're ready to buy. We can also talk about employees and when they have an issue, or when they need some direction, are they going to come and Are you their first port of call? Not because of authority, not because of anything like that, but because they they have trust, right? They are going to take your your your feedback, or they're seeking it. So, so much here. All right, so people come with this misconception about, you know that it has to be shiny. It has to be a shotgun approach. It has to be it's all about likes and clicks and all of these things. How do you guide them out of this?
Jared  17:40  
Well, the first thing I do is I talk about removing vanity metrics from the way that you judge your campaigns. So vanity metrics, for me, are likes, follows, comments, those types of things, because the amount of followers you have, the amount of likes that you get, does not affect the purchasing decision of somebody that needs your product. So it's not that they don't matter. It's that if you judge your content based on engagement alone, and engagement typically comes from your followers, from the people that already trust you. Doesn't come from outside of that. It's something that we've learned over the last couple years is engagement comes from the people that already love you. So if you're trying to build a brand, and you haven't done it yet, you're still trying to validate, then you should have no engagement anyways, that's why it's a metric that doesn't matter. That's why that's one that we put off to the side. So first thing, more than anything, what I'm worried about is that we start to look at the metrics that matter. And the metrics that matter are very simple, average watch time, so the amount that somebody's watching a piece of content that you create, photo or video, we look at impressions, the general impressions, because impressions and views are standard to how many people are seeing the touch points. And if we want more people to see our customers, we want as many touch points and impressions as possible. That's how we grow. And if we look at average watch time, and it's going up over time, and if we look at impressions, and it's going up over time, and I'm saying month to month, we're not talking week to week, then what we are doing in the marketing department, as a leader, guiding our organization, is we're doing the right thing in terms of building a modern brand, because we're starting to hold attention longer. We're in the right direction. And that's it. That's all we're trying to look at from the start. And if we can do that, if we can change our theory with that, then we can start to go and make the right marketing decisions and start to make content that works in today's world. 
Tim  19:41  
It’s interesting. You talk about vanity metrics, we talk about likes and whatnot. What's the purpose of the like and the click and all of these readily available sources of data? It's not about whether or not it's effective. It's about keeping people on that platform. It's the gamification of your social time. But it has little to nothing to do with that, holding the attention and building trust, and really that relationship, building that, figuring out what your market needs and whatnot. So it's interesting to think how much a like, a thumbs up can betray you.
Jared  20:18  
The question that I get asked all the time. The real simple question that every business owner asks is, how do we beat the algorithm? How do we find a way to achieve success in today's algorithm? And I like to tell everyone that the algorithm is no secret. Instagram makes it public. The algorithm is only looking for two things. Number one, the algorithm is looking for, will the audience watch the video longer? Why? Because all of these platforms want to serve ads to their audience, and the longer you can keep someone on the platform, the longer they're going to be able to serve ads to them. So that's, that's a common sense. The second one, which is the vanity metrics, is, will that audience engage? But an engagement is not what people think. An engagement is a click. It is a link in bio click and then, yeah, there's still comments, likes, shares, saves, all of the other metrics. But it's not as simple as just a like, so that's why I say they matter, but it's secondary, first to watch time and then to creating an audience that trusts you, that actually wants to engage. Because the fact of the matter is this, you can create an audience that's going to watch every single video that you ever post and they never like or engage with it. 
Tim  21:34  
Yeah, that's right. They're not there when it matters, in a sense. 
Jared  21:38  
Yeah, and the algorithm doesn't care if the algorithm sees that person wants to watch every piece of your content, and they're still going to look at your website, and they're looking at your profile, they're engaging with you, and the algorithm is going to keep pushing your content to them. So that's how you create success, by only worrying about those two things that the algorithm wants. And this is universal across every platform. It doesn't matter which one it is. All that matters is watch time and then secondary, are they going to potentially engage with you over time? That's all you got to remember.
Tim  22:09  
It's kind of like saying, Are you getting a smile, a nice smile and a nod from somebody, or are they coming to you when they have a problem? There's a very big difference between social engagement and business engagement, or leadership engagement, or, you know, sort of organizational buy-in. Cool, all right, so watch time, impressions, using those to make market decisions. You know, it's funny when people come with that question about beating the algorithm. I remember a year ago, you said this to me again. It's like, don't worry about the algorithm. And at the time, I was thinking, you know, the algorithm that is my problem, or I would say is many people's problem, is the math, not that the app is doing, but that we're doing that stops us from creating and stops us from being open, and stops us from being okay with raw, dogging our our content out there into the world, right? Rather than having it to be perfect. It's all that doubt and whatnot. That's the algorithm up here that we should be worried about, because that's when you say that's gonna that's gonna stop us from that frequency and that openness that might be required. 
Jared  23:13  
We've chatted about this plenty of times. I mean, oftentimes leaders or brand creators get in their own way. They're worried about their own personal appearance, and I must say, after posting 5000 videos in the last three years across platforms, across different mediums, what you think that people are going to see in the video is the absolute opposite of what they actually see. So you might think that they're going to see the double chin or whatever you got going on in that moment. But what they're actually seeing is what service, what value you're offering. And people don't have the attention span today when they're scrolling on eight second, nine second scrolls to worry about an appearance or something not perfect. What they want to know and they want to connect with you is on an emotional level, on a storytelling level, or when you're solving problems, and that's my three pillars of value. And if you can do those things, taking the rest out of the equation and not worrying about what you feel the content is, you're going to be able to make more content, and you're going to see success.
Tim  24:17  
Even if you're not making content again, if we go back to that leadership analogy, if you're focused on being clear around your emotion, the story and the problem that you're solving, you're going to connect with more people more deeply. And that has to be a goal, whether it's in real world or online. When I talk to people about the amount of effort that I put into LinkedIn and Instagram and things like this, and I'm not even, I would say, on the top end of how much effort people put in, I get stories back. They tried it and it didn't work, and they and they lost heart, and they were disappointed, and they gave up. You know, what are some of the disappointments that you you see that have people failing?
Jared  24:57  
Yeah, I see one thing happen all the time. And with any platform that I have had success on, I've had to post for roughly 90 to 120 days straight, two or three times a day in order to see success. But, the amazing thing about it is that every single time, all the platforms around that 90 day mark, if you do it consistently and do it well, magic happens. It pops. So what I like to tell people is you have to stick to it. You can't give up in the process. And what I see, or the biggest disappointment I see, with clients, is they go for 50 days, 45 days, they're doing good. They're making their posts a day. They're doing really well and getting their content and value out, and then they're not seeing those that the value come back immediately. So they give up, or something happens, or they get busy, and they can't follow through and get to that magic threshold, which I would say is 90 days for the win, and it's happened every time. It's a secret, it's a trade secret. I think that a lot of creators know, but the average business owner or leader does not. So it's it's not it's not even that long. It's 90 days. But for some reason, everyone seems to give up in that 60 day mark. And all I want leaders to do, and business owners to do is stick to it and stick to the process, and you'll see the success for your brand
Tim  26:26  
And focus on the right expressions of success. As you said, it's, you know, it's watch time. It's not, it's not likes. Keep up with it and observe those, those metrics you talked about earlier.
Jared  26:38  
Just, yeah, just create value. Look at look at the average watch time. Every single time you're seeing that it's increasing. And if you're telling stories, engaging motion and solving problems, again, those three pillars that I talk about over and over again, you will see success in your content, and you'll see that average time start to increase. It doesn't mean you're not going to fail, Tim. We've been there. It doesn't mean that the first 20 pieces of content you make aren't going to do horribly. The point I'm trying to make is, if you stick to it and get to that magic 90 days on the platform of your choice, then what you're going to end up seeing is you're going to start to see one or two videos, one or two photo posts start to pop, and then you feel great because you see it working, and then that's the small win that keeps things rolling. But very few times do I see people get to that point they give up before that, and then it's kind of like a waste of time. So you have to commit to that 90 days no matter what. If you're listening to this and want to try it. And I mean, if I say one thing, just commit, commit to the process, and you'll see success.
Tim  27:46  
You really clarified something for me there. I'm even still stuck on, well, we got to think about watch time first and stuff. And really the very first metric that we got to be concerned about is there's 90 check boxes on the calendar, and has there been a piece of content every day for 90 days solid? And you've got that consistency, before we worry about anything else, make it to the 90 and then start considering. So that, for me, is a little, is a little light bulb moment going on here. And I imagine you have that experience a lot with people that you're helping them get over this hump of what they think it is to to develop a social following. When you see a light bulb go on in somebody's eyes. Does that do it for you? Or what about this? Work really sings to your heart, Jared?
Jared  28:39  
When a leader switches from thinking about marketing and building a brand on a traditional, classic ROI basis, which is basically $1 spent $2 reward, just basic ROI. And they flip the switch, and they start thinking of things, as I like to say it as the lifetime value proposition. And so what you're thinking of essentially, what that means is you spend $1 but you get $20 back, but you have to wait five years for that, because the lifetime value of the customer, whatever it is for your business, is what the reward is going to be. So if you can change that, and you could flip that switch, one to two to then one to 20, you start to think of every piece of content you make differently, because it's no longer about trying to get an instant reward for every single thing you produce, and you start to actually create value for your audience and for building your brand. And it's just this magic little switch that as soon as you do it, you'll start to see the results. But if you still think classically, which is, again, what 99% of business owners do, is you just struggle. You struggle to get past that 90 days that I just talked about in the previous segment. You struggle to find ways to make content where you're not selling. And I should touch on this just a little bit. I mean, at the end of the day, we've talked about my book, “If You Sell, You Lose,” the original idea of the title came from the fact that at the time, everyone was starting to skip over content that had high sales content in it. And if you think about yourself, anyone listening, can think about how they scroll through social or how they scroll through Google. Majority of people, they see an ad, it's a quick flick right through unless it matters to them in that moment, if you're on Google, you go straight through the ads to the organic search results, and that skipping of content is lowering your average watch time. And if you lower your average watch time, you're not going to see success. So it's an easy formula to think about. If you can start thinking in terms of long term value and capturing the lifetime value of a customer, you're going to be able to not make sales related content and not kick yourself in the foot when you're going about starting to start the process. And that's what gets me going, when I see that switch go off, and then content starts to come out with that value related process in it. It's magical, because it's so much better. It's night and day, and your brand and your customers can see it. So that keeps me going. That keeps me, me excited about creating these transformations.
Tim  31:30  
Yeah, and so in that, and you've given us a lot to think about so far, but if you had a blueprint that you were going to lay down on somebody, what would it look like?
Jared  31:41  
Well, first of all, number one, if we're going through the process, is you have to feel good about your brand before you start. You have to feel good about committing to that 90 day process. Number one, feel good about your brand. Usually that means you unify your brand, so your website, your social media, your Google Maps, optimization, everything about your brand across platforms, including your print documentation, is exactly where you want it to. 
Tim 32:08
Feels like the real deal. 
Jared 32:09
The real deal. Then, then you're ready, because I don't want you to spend a single dollar, not one until you're ready to commit to the 90 days. And you don't want to make too many changes to your brand in that process. You want to commit and go after it. 
Tim  32:22  
It's like, look at what I made, you know. 
Jared  32:24  
Exactly, so that's number one. Number two, as part of the process is execute that cycle that I talk about, the touch point cycle. So start to make so much content, start to practice, start to create the value. And create that cycle. The more times you get to the same customer when you're doing your boosts, when you're talking about making your content and getting out organic reach, the more times you're going to have a chance to find that customer when the timing's right, because you're not going to see success until your customer starts to see you in a long period of time, feel good about your brand and then execute when the timing's right. So execute the cycle. Start making content with that commitment to 90 days. Then as soon as that's done, it's about looking for the small wins to keep your motivation up. So number three, look for the small wins. Try, you said one earlier in the conversation, you said you're on the plane to BC, and someone said, “You're that podcast guy.” I can't count how many times I'm walking around and someone says, you're the guy on Instagram, or you're the creative photographer you took the photo of the blue jay in Canada. And all of those moments, for me are, are those light bulb moments where you know it's working, and there may not be a ton of of results from that, but you know that everything you're doing is working with those small, small wins. After that you want to create and correct as fast as possible. So creating correct, for me is a term that I used in my book. It's a whole chapter dedicated to it. And essentially, what it means is just trial and error. But for me, it's simpler than that. When you're looking at your metrics, on your on your content, you're only looking at that average watch time and a little bit of the engagement, as we talked about, and that's it. So you look at it, you see it. Now you forget about that content. That contents gone a mistake. I see is business owners and leaders, when they have that first success, they are constantly looking at it and analyzing it and and breaking it down. And it's weeks on end they're like, did you, did you see that one video I got? They got 50,000 views. Why did lightning strike? Why did lightning strike, and then they obsess about it. That is not going to help you make more content to succeed. So look at it, analyze it, forget about it. Start making new because I want you to dedicate every minute to making more content and less time analyzing after that initial view. So be quick. Be very efficient with how you look at your metrics when you're creating and correcting. After that, when you're starting to go through the process of making the success. I always set the blueprint for every business across the board to spend between 2% to 5% on marketing. That's the general spend across business industry. It's backed by a lot of data, and I'll find, and I'll be willing to bet, that a lot of people listening to this, when they do the math on how much they spend on marketing or how much they spend on Instagram boost compared to how much they make, they're not even close to the 2% mark, let alone the 5% mark. So the 2% to 5% mark is designed for you to spend the money required to replace clients and bring in new clients or customers to your brand that are going to bring that lifetime value to the table. And after that, number five, as we're going through this process, is actually find out what the lifetime value of your customers is. Now, I never say this is number one, even though some people say, why am I not figuring out the lifetime value at the beginning? It's because when you're starting to do a new marketing process and you're starting to bring in new customers with these small wins after your your 90 day process, then when you see the magic start to happen, it's a new customer than you've never had before very often. So sometimes it opens up, sometimes it's your typical customer, don't get me wrong, but you're bringing in new people that you've never experienced in your brand before, and their lifetime value may not match what it is now. So you're going to have a blend of what that lifetime value is, and then figure it out. Figure out exactly, based on the customers you're bringing in, how much they're going to spend on your product or service over their lifetime. And with that data, you come to my magic number, which is spend 5% on marketing to acquire a client based on their lifetime value. So if the lifetime value of a customer is them buying $100 chimney cleaning service, you should spend about $5 for every lead that you're bringing in, but 5% of that 100. But if the lifetime value of your customer is $10,000 then your customer acquisition for every client can be up to $500 to achieve that, and it's a big number, because on most platforms today, the cost per conversion is somewhere between $50 to $200 depending on industry. So there's a lot of room to play in there with your marketing budget. And if you have a high lifetime value, if you're selling a service at a very, very high price point, you have room to acquire that customer, specifically talking to real estate agents yourself as a leadership coach, and anyone that has a higher ticket item, we want to make sure that you're spending 5% of the lifetime value to acquire a new customer. And then afterwards, I always like to say, I always come back to the value tree. So when I look at my my value triangle, when I look at my three things, solve problems, create emotion, and tell stories. If you can find a way to do the value last and always make sure you're coming back to creating and correcting, finding what the value for the customer is creating and correcting, finding what the value is coming coming up with that cycle you can't you get into a system that you feel Like you're winning every single day you post something. Like I give you an example, not my major pages, but on near me, Victoria, the last couple days, we posted eight times in one day, and in that eighth, post, we got 160,000 views and 3200 shares within the local community. So that's after years of creating content every single day, multiple times a day, but when you do that, and you feel those numbers come in on a base level, you get excited, and you know you're making a difference. And that's what you're going to do with this blueprint for your brands. 
Tim  39:16  
I think that's great. There was something else that, as you were speaking there, you you told me years ago, and when you're going through this validate and feel good about your brand piece, what would you say is the relationship to asking sort of permission or asking too many people what they think about your brand or about your content, especially people up close and personal who aren't doing it themselves. I feel, that feels like a trap to me sometimes, because you know, often, if you're worried about being… of getting people's approval, it can really put the brakes on.
Jared  40:05  
Well, with anything in marketing, obviously, there's industries out there that have to have compliance on some level, and they want to get each piece of content checked for legal reasons, whatever, whatever the case might be. And I understand that, but the less touch touches there is on each piece of content, the less revisions you have, the less resources you're going to spend on it, and the more resources you're going to have to spend to make more content. And I guess I should touch on what that means. I guess the quality versus quantity debate that everyone seems to get caught up on. So I mean, let's go this way, quantity-quality, there is debates on social media both directions. Some people say one, some people say the other, and oftentimes, people that I work with have tried both. They've done a lot of quantity, but it's been really bad, and they've done some really, really refined stuff, been really good. The secret to quality versus quantity is you actually need both to succeed. So there's no one or the other. There's no debate here. You need both. You need lots and lots of content, you need to train the algorithm of who is your customer so they can retarget your content to them and help you build organically a little bit. And then number two is you, you just have to find a way to make good content still, you need it to have those pillars of value in it. And that doesn't mean use a good camera, like I said earlier, it just means make good content and that takes practice, but once you create that good content and can do it quickly and effectively, then it even amplifies everything else that I've talked about with doing it for 90 days or longer. The Magic really takes hold at that point in time. And yeah, it's, it's when you find that one piece of content that works, then duplicate it like give her, start making more, start doing it again and again and again, and you'll see success.
Tim  42:18  
Don't stress out about how to make lightning strike, but, you know, just use it as a kickoff. And you know, you were thinking square, so just forget about that no. Go and make the next piece. Make the next piece follow that vein until it plays out.
Jared  42:35  
The biggest thing I can tell your audience from my secret to creating multiple brands with 10s of 1000s of followers, is… 
Tim 42:44
Millions of followers, right?
Jared 42:46
With millions, each of my brands has had success over multiple niches. So we're talking from photography to wildlife to local content, multiple niches with the products that I do is, is, I'll give you an example. With my wildlife page. There was a point in time where I posted 200 reels in a 10 day period. So I was 20 reels a day, and in that period I gained 60,000 followers. So anyone listening to this that thinks 200 reels in in 10 days, that's, that's crazy, that's impossible. Well, I sat down and I edited them, I got them ready to go, and I made that post every single like they were all ready to go, and then I just launched them. And there's no harm done. There’s no loss of followers. You're training the algorithm, you're creating a ton of content. It was all great, and there's a reward for that. And so, so don't be scared of that. Don't be scared of creating at that level. There's almost no downside to producing more. And when the arguments come in for it, the easiest one to explain is a lot of misconceptions are that you'll train your audience to not follow you or follow your content. You might make them a little annoyed at the amount, but what we've learned is the algorithm won't show content to your audience if they think your audience isn't going to watch it or might unfollow you. So even if you post 20 times in a day, then it might not show the 20th post to your audience member for another 30 days. So it's not showing all 20 posts to them on the same day. It's utilizing and showing it to each individual based on what their comfort level is with your brand. That's why you can produce so much and increase your chances at organic reach by posting on.
Tim  44:38  
One and 200 points of data for the for the thing to learn from helps it work, right, in a sense? 
Jared  44:48  
Yes, it helps the algorithm retarget your content to people that are going to follow you and and get attached to your brand. And that's, that's where most brands don't get to that, that point where it can train the algorithm, so. 
Tim  45:03  
Awesome. All right, if somebody is going to take away one thing from what you've offered today, if you have a wish for the listener right now, what state do you hope they are able to reach by the end of listening to us? 
Jared  45:18  
I think with leaders and marketers today, the one thing to remember across all of history and all of business is marketing has always been the exact same. Nothing's changed. And this is what hasn't changed. Value is always going to equal value. So if you can connect emotionally with your audience, solve a problem for them, or tell them a story that they engage with those three pillars of value, you are going to build an audience and build a brand that's able to sell your product or service. That is never going to change. It doesn't matter if social media disappears tomorrow. It doesn't matter what you do, if you can connect with your audience on one of those three pillars, hopefully all three, but at least one, then you're going to succeed. And that's that's it. And if you write that on the wall, value is always going to equal value, and that's never going to change. It's easier to make marketing decisions when you're looking at buying that commercial video that maybe isn't going to do any of the three pillars. You're going to be able to make better decisions by recognizing that that's not going to change from a market.
Tim  46:22  
And avoid the snake oil I would imagine, right? 
Jared  46:25  
Avoid, yeah, really avoid the shiny objects. Because when you see a shiny object, when you see a hack, a shortcut that someone is pitching to you, I can tell you right now that there's no shortcuts. To build my first photography page, it was 1000 posts in 365 days, close to three posts a day, learning from every single one on what works, getting better at your craft, getting better at how you're engaging emotion, solving problems, telling stories. And eventually I got to the point where I could do two or three in each video and watch time was going up, and it blows up from there. So it's sticking the course and really understanding that you have to do the work and there is no shortcut. Any shortcut you take today is probably going to set you back from a marketing standpoint, indefinitely, years, months, years, every time you make one of those decisions.
Tim  47:17  
Haste makes waste. All right, let's get on to hearing from our last guest. So we're talking here to Amreesh Khanna. So we're going to listen to this little clip where Amreesh asks about your relationship with your reflections on your own leadership. 
Amreesh  47:33  
What is it that you could do or change in how you reflect upon yourself as a leader, to reject perfection, change your perspective on failure and success that would help you be better at what you do today, and have that influence on the people and the purpose that you lead with?
Jared  47:54  
Yeah, sure. Thanks Amreesh for the question. I think for myself, I struggle with some of the even the concepts that I talk about. I struggle internally a lot of times with trying to not always do the things that I love and sometimes focus on the things that I don't love as much. And what I'm saying by that is I really, I love what I do. I love, I love creating content, but sometimes I get caught up in trying to only do the things I love and I put the things that will help me build and grow as a leader off to the side. And what I need to do is I need to find a way to reprioritize, bring some of that back and create a balance between doing what I love and also focusing on the business. And that'll help me in all my relationships, from my clients to staff members, etc., finding that focus and and realizing you can't have it all.
Tim  48:46  
Yeah, I had a coach once say to me, it's more important to be consistent than it is to feel good. And I was like, you know, when it comes down to it, yeah, you're not wrong. There are things that we have to be consistent with whether or not it's our favorite thing in the moment. But all right, great answer. As part of this tradition, you get to lob a question that you've considered into the next mystery guest, and we're not quite sure who that's going to be yet, as always. So what eclectic leadership perspective would you like to weigh in on one of your issues? What would be the question?
Jared  49:23  
I'm going to go with, screen time. So I'm going to say, let's talk screen time. I challenge you to look at your screen time on your phone, if you're comfortable, share your screen time with the audience, and then let us know what you're doing to manage it, if anything, at this current time.
Tim  49:39  
Cool. Love it. Great challenge. Okay, as we wrap up here, thanks very much for taking the time. I hope people are as happy with this conversation as I have been with all of those times we've happily washed dishes and scrubbed dried gravy off of roasters. It's really something to see the success you've had in this space, and see all of the people that are that are interested in collaborating with you, and all of the big brands that are now coming coming to you for guidance. And so if people want to reach out, or you want them to get involved in something, how can they connect with you? How can they experience Jared VanderMeer?
Jared  50:23  
Yeah, I would say to reach out through one of my platforms, most likely Instagram or Tiktok. It is for the modern creator. That is your phone book, that is your contact list. So when people reach out to me through one of those platforms, it's usually easiest to manage, because it's where we do spend our lot of our work time. So through my Jared VanderMeer Photography page or Wild dot VanderMeer Wildlife page are the easiest ways to reach out and send me a message. And I'll always find it.
Tim  50:53  
All right, we'll put those deets in the show notes. And as I say, you know, man, great to have you here and I and I can't wait for people to listen through this. So.
Jared  51:03  
Thanks, Tim, yeah, I can't wait to talk business over dishes again soon. 
Tim 51:08
That sounds great.
Tim  51:11  
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this episode, Tim welcomes Amreesh Khanna, a visionary entrepreneur and the founder of OraQ, a company revolutionizing the dental industry through clinical AI solutions. Amreesh shares how OraQ is standardizing patient exams, empowering patients with transparency, and strengthening the patient-clinician relationship through informed decisions and trust. Tune in for an inspiring conversation about innovation in healthcare, leadership lessons, and the power of community impact.

Episode Notes
In this episode, Tim welcomes Amreesh Khanna, a visionary entrepreneur and the founder of OraQ, a company revolutionizing the dental industry through clinical AI solutions. Amreesh shares how OraQ is standardizing patient exams, empowering patients with transparency, and strengthening the patient-clinician relationship through informed decisions and trust. He explains how dentists play a crucial role in identifying and preventing systemic health issues such as cardiac and respiratory problems. Amreesh also highlights the potential of AI in healthcare, including its ability to predict patient outcomes and personalize treatment plans.

Beyond his professional endeavors, Amreesh discusses his passion for community service and his work with the nonprofit organization Cause to Smile, which aims to empower the dental community and support local initiatives. He reflects on the importance of balancing professional ambitions with giving back and shares insights on leadership, decision-making, and reframing failure as a learning opportunity. Tune in for an inspiring conversation about innovation in healthcare, leadership lessons, and the power of community impact.

About Amreesh Khanna 
Dr. Amreesh Khanna refers to himself as a professional tooth enthusiast, more commonly known as a Dentist. He has a deep passion for the integration of AI/ML in clinical applications and is at the forefront of advancing precision dental care through his start-up, OraQ AI. This company is dedicated to redefining ethical dental practice growth by prioritizing optimal patient care.

With over 17 years of clinical dental experience, Dr. Khanna has encountered numerous challenges and successes on his entrepreneurial journey as a dental practice owner. In terms of patient care, he has been involved in complex treatments, including dental implants, bone and gum grafting, IV conscious sedation, dental sleep medicine for patients with obstructive sleep apnea, and oral rehabilitation for individuals with complex TMD, tooth wear, and bite concerns.
Dr. Khanna remains actively engaged in his field as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Alberta Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry. Additionally, he has established his own dental education platform called ADEPT Dental Education, which aims to drive accelerated growth on the clinical and business sides of Dentistry.
Community involvement has always held great importance in Dr. Khanna’s life. As a dental student, he founded the SHINE Dental Clinic in Edmonton to provide dental care to those in need. He also leads a non-profit organization called Cause to Smile, which strives to "do good beyond the walls of our clinics."

Away from his professional endeavors, Dr. Khanna enjoys traveling with his wife and two young daughters, creating cherished memories that will last a lifetime.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Startup TNT
• Shine Dental Clinic
• Tec Canada
• Cause to Smile

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Amreesh Khanna | OraQ AI: 

• Website: oraq.ai
• Instagram: @dramreeshkhanna
• Linkedin: Amreesh Khanna

Transcript
Amreesh  00:01
There's no failure in leadership if we are reflecting on it appropriately. There's good leaders and bad leaders. But if we're those honest leaders that are constantly reflecting about what we're doing, why we're doing, you know, like all these things, that we're thoughtfully and genuinely trying to do what's best, well, if that's the case, then there shouldn't be any failure in leadership too. Because without having the ups and downs and things working and not working, how would we even be where we are today, or able to do it right?

Tim  00:33
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action. Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and this is the 50th episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim  1:06
Welcome back to the sweet on leadership podcast, where we explore stories and strategies behind remarkable leaders, and we're certainly joined by one of those today. I am thrilled that sitting across from me virtually is Amreesh Khanna, a visionary, an entrepreneur, driving force behind Ora! AI. Amreesh, we've known each other now for about two years, roughly, having met through Startup TNT, I am so impressed at how you are disrupting your industry in such a positive and empowering way for both the dental community and the patients, and I would love for you to introduce yourself and and let us into what drives you in that space. So, welcome Amreesh. 

Amreesh  01:53
Thank you so much. Tim. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show, and thank you for thinking of me to bring you on here, share my experiences and hopefully give something insightful to your listeners. Yeah, it's been great getting to know you and through the tech community here in Calgary, Startup, TNT, as you mentioned, was kind of what brought us together initially, and where I was sharing my journey, and you know, where we were going with my startup called OraQ AI.  What we're doing, you know, a little bit, I guess, call it about myself and what we're doing with OraQ, we're the only clinical AI solution in dentistry that standardizes a comprehensive patient exam and engages a patient with full transparency and ownership of their oral health data. What does that mean to you and your listeners? I mean, we've all got a story where one dentist told you one thing and another dentist told you something else, and you're kind of like sitting there leaving, like, are they just trying to sell me on something I don't really get that? You know, I've had this feeling this way, and somebody's now telling me I need a crown. And it's like, why is that happening? And you know, how do we really make sure that patients understand their reasons behind the recommendations in a way that they can truly trust their dentist and know that their dentist does have their overall health at the best interest at the forefront of their mind. But then also at the clinical level. Like our user is the clinician, and their practice is, how do we support the clinicians around precision care, right? And how do we drive those decisions around what we need to do for our patient, you know, to not be tooth to tooth dentists like let's look at the patient as a whole. Let's look at them comprehensively. Let's look at their medical health, how that all impacts their overall wellness journey, and make sure that we can empower them with the information that they need all at the tips of their fingers. We call it the mind and the wisdom of 1000 dentists to both dentists and patients, so we can make better decisions, more informed decisions, and then empower our patients to make the right decision as well too. 

Tim  03:45
I think that's absolutely fantastic. I've always been told and maybe you can clear this up for me, the mouth says so many things about the health of the body, but also and tell me if this is true, if you've got poor dental health, you typically can have cardiac problems, you can have respiratory problems, you can be at increased risks for for cancer and gastrointestinal issues. Is that? Is that? Is that a thing?

Amreesh  04:11
Yeah. I mean, you know, so one of the things that is always a big component at least of my clinical education journey was what we call the oral, systemic health connection, the dental medical connection, right? I went to the University of Alberta for dental school, and through my educational journey over there, medical and dental was actually together for the first two years, so we did all the medical classes alongside with our dental classes. And I mean, I loved it. I was probably one of the Keeners that loved it, the few that really loved it that way. But it's because I found it so fascinating, again, because everything is connected, right. With that connection, at the end of the day, infection in our body, inflammation in the mouth, all translates to have effects with other things like you mentioned, right? You know, cardiovascular issues. It's linked to preterm births with women who are pregnant. And one big thing we look at now sleep disorder, breathing, obstructive sleep apnea, right? And the amount of research that's come over the past 10 plus years that shows how we look at clenching and grinding and people that we'd say, Oh, you're stressed out, you're grinding your teeth, let's give you a night guard. Really, it was all stemming to an underlying airway disturbance that dentists and hygienists and the dental community are in a very unique position to be able to screen for these things. Because you see your dentist often, a lot more than you see your family physician, right? And so how can we play a role in early intervention prevention, flagging those areas of concern, so that now we can tell you, hey, something might be going on here, right? Like, we're not seeing you improving in, say, your periodontal, your gum health. Well, is there something else going on? Like, are you diabetic? Do you have, you know, you know, cardiovascular issues, other inflammatory markers in your body that could translate to other issues, right, and play a role in that, right? So find that really fascinating. Again, part of the core in our AI platform too, is, well, how do we bring that awareness to everybody? Right? Because, you know, not everybody might have geeked out the same way that I did when it came out to the medical side of things, right? So how do we bring that mind and the wisdom of 1000 dentists, again, so that every patient coming in the door, we understand what is their medical risk, even so that we can screen for things early, we can send them back to their doctor to say, hey. Like, we're not saying we're a physician here, but like, go get something checked out something doesn't seem right here. Rather, you check it out and make sure you're okay, then find out later that something got way worse than they could have intervened earlier too, right?

Tim  06:37
Well, and a dental visit is much more accepted as a maintenance style activity, rather than than solely an intervention with a disease or something. But I imagine, I mean fascinating to find out how many people will talk more regularly about their health to their Barber. I don't have that problem, but to their Barber, their hairdresser, than they do to their doctor, because it's a maintenance activity. They're there on a schedule more or less, and you know, the doctor is going to check your tonsils and look in your mouth anyway. So if you've got a healthcare provider that's under the hood, you know, on a regular basis, that should be a logical place to start collecting data, triggering further investigation, doing all of those things that the patient themselves may not appreciate is going on.

Amreesh  07:26
You got it. And I think that's exactly the core to our solution, is bringing that awareness first, have asking the right questions, right? Because, you know, as a healthcare provider, we can ask and we need to be asking those questions, right, instead of your barber, right? What medications are you on? Right? Understanding, connecting those dots again. But what if one clinician is not asking all of the questions, they're only asking 20% of them, and another clinician is asking 50% and another clinician is asking 80 or 100% Why does that happen? Right? And it's all because, I mean, we're all human. We all have our mind full of a ton of things that we're trying to do the best for the, you know, patient, or the service, or, you know, industry that we're providing care with to that individual. But if we can just sometimes nudge and support like, I mean, what we truly are is a clinical decision support system, right, is nudge to collect the right information. Give you meaning around the information as a clinician, firstly, to understand that what's the impact of that information I just collected on my patient and my plan. And then give you as a patient an understanding of it, so that you sit up and you see your health in green, yellow and red and know, okay, shoot, I don't know what all that other stuff meant that you just told me about, but I know green is good, yellow is okay, and red is bad, right? And so what do I got to do about this? 

Tim  08:50
Customize the dashboard for the level of knowledge or the level of expertise of the of the patient, so they have a check engine light around their their health and I think that that's, yeah, that's, that's amazing. Plus, I mean, just from a data perspective, centralizing data, making it available to everybody, getting that, that holistic picture, even though you're doing it through different people, and filling in the blanks, it's so important, because otherwise we just have all this orphan knowledge and orphan data just floating out there. And how do we, we're relying on the patient to centralize that and communicate that story in a layman's term, from from provider to provider, rather than, yeah. Okay with you. I think that. I think that that's fantastic. Before we get going too much further, I want us to hear from Karen Dommett. She had a question for you as a guest, which is a bit of a tradition, and don't worry, at the end of the podcast, you're going to have a chance to lob your own question at the next guest. But for right now, let's, let's take a listen to Karen's.

Karen Dommett  09:53
So, when you find yourself at a crossroads of conflicting good that conflicts with good, yeah. How do you find that moment of clarity or that direction in those conflicting moments? 

Amreesh  10:05
You know this ties into probably a deeper discussion even today, is that like as driven entrepreneurs, leaders, executives, we often like want everything to be right and ensure that we have de-risked every decision that we've made, and find the data and the pros and cons and the lists that we make, and everything to make that right decision. I think something that maybe I don't trust enough too and that would help me on this is that gut and intuition right? Like, trusting that we've come this far to be in a position that we are in to be, you know, have the honor of making a decision like that, right? That people are trusting us with that decision, that we also have to trust a little bit in our intuition and gut and around what's guiding us there, right? And then take the chance. In this particular question, we're choosing between two good things, where we're not going to know what the end result outcome might be, but we know we're choosing between two good things, so we've done the analysis to really know that these are two directions that are good for us, but what's gonna what is my gut maybe pulling me towards? Because there's something there that we probably can't, you know, articulate or give a reason behind, but something's going to draw us to one or the other. And I think you got to trust that.

Tim  11:25
And I think it's it's funny when you watch leaders at those crossroads and they have to make that decision. Often, they can find what they were looking for in the in the second decision down the road, or it wasn't as binary decision as they thought it was going to be. It could be a matter of timing or something. But, you know, making that decision and having I love that what you said, you know, we are privileged to have that, that ability to be the one deciding. And so Trust yourself, trust your gut, keep going. Love it. Great, great. And that, again, was from Karen Dommett. Karen is the manager of Games and Competition at Special Olympics Canada, so great episode with her wonderful conversation. And I'd recommend that you take a listen very inspiring stuff. Speaking of which, you don't just run OraQ, you've got this history of running, not for profits, volunteer organizations, philanthropy. Can you tell me a little more about that? Because I think that's a that's a part of your profile that I find, again, just very inspiring.

Amreesh  12:36
Yeah. Anyway, you know, I think I was brought up always with community and giving as something that was very important to me. My parents came to Canada from India in the late 70s. Always were involved in, you know, the East Indian community in town, finding ways to give back, support, help in whatever way they could, you know. And so I saw a lot of that growing up. And, you know, got involved in ways to do so. And I think what I realized over time was that you know, I was doing it, and why was I doing it right? Like, I would maybe grade some fundraising thing in high school. I, in dental school, I founded a student-run clinic, which is, you know, 20 plus years of existence they call the Shine Dental Clinic in Edmonton. And I was like, Well, why am I doing this, and what, how do I get the energy to do this, amongst all the other things that I'm doing? To me, that aspect of giving filled a certain bucket in my life that other things couldn't, right? Not saying that there was deficiency or something lacking in other things that I was involved in, whether that's, you know, My family, it's my friends, it's a social circles. You know, beliefs, you have your professional ambitions, but there was something around the giving that still, I couldn't feed in all those other aspects myself, but when I did that, I really lit me up, right? And so, that's where I continue to try to find ways, you know, we're busy doing lots of things all the time, but finding some ways to thread that into my life, and hopefully, just like I was I saw it, and my parents show my two daughters, you know, that's an important part of living, right? So, yeah.

Tim  14:15
Yeah. Well, and it fills you with an energy, as you say, or a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning that may not be in such great concentrations in other areas of your life. So you're really creating this whole life experience. And yeah, I, you know, you said a little bit about you've had asked, answered questions about finding energy to do it all. And, you know, I think, to Karen's question, you're making choices about where you're going to apply your time, and you're making choices about what you can invest your time in, what you can put support towards, and what you might have to lay fallow, or something right that you can't, you can't deal with right off the bat. How do you find, do you find that there's conflict throughout the different aspects of your life, at least drawing on your own time and things like that? Like, is it? Do you ever get pulled in those two different directions? As Karen says?

Amreesh  15:14
Yeah, you know, is it like having that ambition and drive? Definitely, you know, I'm always like, oh, wow, like, that's something great. I want to be involved in that, or I want to do this, or I want to do that, right? I think what I've, I've learned over especially, to call it the last five years having, you know, great mentors, coaches, people in my life that kind of helped me piece this together was that if I have multiple things that I'm involved in that ultimately have some overlap and congruency around what is I'm passionate about, what my own personal values are. Then I found that those were actually not conflicting, right? Because the, like, from the outside, somebody might be like, whoa. Like, what do you do? And you're doing all these things, like, how do you find the time to do this, it’s amazing? And it's like, yeah, that's crazy. Half the time, yeah, it's crazy. Half the time still, too. Like, not the, you know, my wife will say, You're crazy. It was picking up the next or doing this and doing that, but when they're all tied together, then that's what drives, like, the energy around me, right? And I, I kind of went through this, you know, about, you know, five years ish, go like, you know, I have great personal, you know, coaches, mentors, been part of organizations. I was part of Tec Canada for quite, you know, 10 years. And did this personal values exercise, like you'll see up here, inspire, influence, educate, is something that I put together that was like, Who, what defined me as like values and what I wanted to do, right? So that then, when I looked at okay, what was I doing in my dental practices? What was I doing with my education platform for dentists? What was doing with my nonprofit? What was I doing in Oracle? They all tie back and led to this, right? And they… Yeah. So then for me, it gave me kind of that North Star that I'm like, I'm not distracted, I'm actually just doing different things, but they're all to serve that energy or to serve that ultimate purpose.

Tim  17:13
You know, when we talk about purpose, especially among high performers and whatnot, there's a fluency around what our purpose is. And then there's the whatever we do in our life, if it furthers that purpose, we achieve that congruency. As you said, it's such a love that word, it just means that it's not I've always found with myself, it's not work. And it sounds like such a trite thing to say, but honestly, I can be working late. I just came through a crazy week this past week, probably one of the nuttiest weeks I've had in years. But it wasn't work. It was it was hard, it was challenging, but it wasn't work and it wasn't exhausting in the same like physically a little exhausting. Mentally, no, no. Mentally, spiritually, whatever you want to put, put it on that side of things. I was living, man. You know what I mean, I'm just exactly where I where I need to be. And so, yeah, I can definitely get down with that. 

Amreesh  18:18
And I was gonna say, like, Tim, like you, like you said, like, yeah, we're physically exhausted, like you probably went to sleep, doesn't it to be like, holy, I am just like, done, right?

Tim  18:25
Sometimes can't even get to sleep because I'm I am tired physically, but I am so energized mentally and emotionally that you have to kind of go for a walk, listen to a book tape, you know? Yeah, have a cup of tea. Because, you know what I mean?

Amreesh  18:41
Yeah, what I was gonna say, like, I think like you said it really nice is like, because it's part of your purpose and your drive and your vision and where you want to be and where you're making your impact. That's what still gets us up the next morning to be like, All right, that was like, really hard, but I'm ready to do it again, even though it's like, hard. I'm like, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep going, right?

Tim  19:03
So we talk about that energy management. And you know, in my practice, a lot of times, we're always dealing with this balance between creative energy, which is that can be that anxiety-rich, stress-rich, creative process, and then the ability to maintain calm and control and have those systems so that you know that you are, that you are safe, basically, or safe enough. And that you've got the data coming in that you need, and you can just, you know, you can just relax a little bit and say, You know what I've got, what I need. So I'm this picture is emerging for me, of you, Amreesh, where you know you've got this, inspire, influence, educate, purpose. We have this, these community clinics and whatnot that you've set up, these, not for profits, that are helping people, and that's a big part of your Venn diagram. And then over here, we have Q AI, which really, you know, is putting this knowledge, or this information and this data into the hands of both the health provider and the patient, right? And all of that, to me, smacks of creating freedom for other people. Like it's creating, you're empowering other people, and you're doing it through exactly as you've gotten back there, you know. Are you inspiring? Are you influencing? Are you educating? You're giving people data they need. And that, to me, is really on that control side. You know, it's that, yeah, I've got the, I got the base. So can you talk to me a little bit more about that? Am I? Am I reading you right there? Like, is there? Is there? Do you find that that reduce…. like me, do you find that reducing the struggle in people's life is really, is, is really fulfilling?

Amreesh  20:58
When I put my clinician hat on, like we want to do what's best for our patient, and in order for us to do what's best for our patient, we as a clinician, need to be empowered, as you said, have the right data, have the control, the confidence to do what's best, and we also need the patient to believe it, right? And and so because then we get at a crossroads as clinicians, where sometimes you're like, I want to do the good for my patient, but my patient doesn't accept that if they don't proceed with that treatment for whatever reason. You know, they don't value. That's financial reasons, it's insurance, it's like, whatever. There's a multitude of reasons, but I always go back to value, right? And I think like, data, knowledge, if used in the right way, empowers us all, right? And it gives us then the confidence, right? Because it's, I think, in order to get the trust with a patient, we have to be confident in what and why we're doing something. I mean, you, you, and your listeners would have a feeling where they know they're sitting there with whoever their healthcare provider is. I mean, it's a very, you know, intimate, vulnerable state to be in which whatever provider you're sitting there when they're telling you they're going to do something or stick you with a needle or whatever. But how do you trust them? And you can feel like there's something there that I trust this person, or I'm not sure if I do right. So, like, so I think then get back to like, what you're saying about, like, control and data and all these things. Like, I think I look at it as more like, when I felt good and confident in my clinician journey of treating my patients was when I let go of like, why or why not, my patients are doing something, and just try to do the best for them, right? And so in order for me to do the best, I needed to have the right data, have the right approach with my patients, the right philosophy, the education, everything that I needed to do to feel that confidence. So then I could say, Hey, Tim, this is all what's going on, like, but I support you, whatever way you want to go. That's when I saw, hey, my practice thrive, right? And I was doing the fun dentistry, making an impact on many patients. Like, you're not going to win everybody over, right? But they just might not be ready at that time. And patients valued it. Patients could see it, you could feel it right, and then at the same time, now we're empowering a patient to understand that. So I think there's, like, there's all these like, kind of gaps that I saw, like, hence, you know, where a division of work you came about to kind of solve those pain points, solve those gaps. 

Tim  23:38
Yeah, well, the way I'm seeing it is, OraQ is also, what I love…  I know. Sorry, I mean, this is, I'm taking this a little too far, but it's taking that practice of, you know, going with, how do we help them help themselves, or or whatnot. How do we do what's best for them? And it's, it's systemizing it. So let me ask you this question, because a lot of people that are listening are not going to be dentists, but everything that you've just said when it comes to, you know, focusing on value and confidence, having these vulnerable and influential moments, really having that power and that influence, but then translating that into belief and trust that isn't just having talked to you, I know that that this doesn't exist, that isn't just in your system. I would imagine that that influences how you approach your student-run clinic, how you how you mentor people, how you run your own business. Are these same philosophies exactly what you apply when you're dealing with staff, exactly what you're when you're dealing with partners? 

Amreesh  24:45
Yeah, like, I'd say, I would be not truthful if I said, Oh, I do this all the time, right? These are things that I have learned over time, that I strive to do. So have I made plenty of mistakes along the way? With, you know, how I've dealt with team, staff, anything in over the years in my various businesses, absolutely. But I think then looking at that a bit differently is what's kind of brought me to understanding a different focus here, right? And approach.

Tim  25:17
Let me reword this question for you. Do you think that that same approach that you take, that you're trying to bring between the the the doctor, patient relationship, is transferable for a person that's in a leadership position in an organization? Can they approach things the same way? 

Amreesh  25:37
Yeah, that's where I think, you know, like, that's a great question. Because I think that's what I've tried to take. And I don't know if I have the exact, firm solution, answer playbook for that kind of today, but what's made me reflect a lot on, like, my thinking around that, because, in one sense, as I said, where I got free in my world as a clinician, that then led me to kind of build this was when I took the risk off of me, and it was like, let me get look at the data, let me look at this and support it, empower the other individual, in this case, the patient, to make a decision. Well, so how do you look at that, I guess, from a business perspective, then that's really interesting question, because I think we look at data as leaders, definitely right. We look at the risks and benefits of of the decisions that we're going to make similarly to what, I'm you know, we do in OraQ. But probably one thing that I've had to learn and continue to learn, is the outcome of doing or not doing something, what that translates to is it a failure or success? Right? And I think that's something that I often reflect on more now. I don't know if that makes sense. 

Tim  26:55
No, it does. We had a conversation a little bit earlier where we were listening to a video together of a basketball player that was faced with this exact question. We'll take another listen to that right now and then we can talk a little bit about how does keeping it real in your own leadership journey, not just making it real for your staff, but keeping it real for yourself. Free you up to deal with feelings of failure or whether or not we're dealing with imposter syndrome or anything else. 

Amreesh 27:27
Yeah

[Clip of Basketball Player Giannis Antetokounmpo]
Reporter  27:29
I just asked Bud the exact same question, but I'm curious for you, do you view this season as a failure?

Giannis  27:34
Oh, my God, okay, because I'm not that up. You asked me the same question last year, Eric. Okay. Do you get do you get the promotion every year on your job, no, right? So every year you work as a failure, yes or no? No. Every, every year you work, you work towards something, towards a goal, right, which is to get a promotion, to be able to take care of your family, to be able, I don't know, provide the house for them, or take care of your parents. You work towards a goal is not a failure. It's steps to success, you know. And if you've never, I don't know, I don't want to, I don't want to make it personal. So there's always steps to it, you know. Michael Jordan played 15 years, won six Championship, the other nine years was a failure? That's what you're telling me.

Reporter  28:34
I'm asking a question, yes or no?

Giannis  28:37
Okay, exactly. So why are you asking that question? It's a wrong question. There's no failure in sports. You know, there's good days, bad days, some days, some days, you are able to be successful. Some days you're not. Some days, it's your turn. Some days it's not your turn, and that's what sports about, you don't always win. Some other other people is going to win, and this year, somebody else going to win. Similar as that, going to come back next year. Try to be better, try to build good habits, try to play better, not have a 10 day stretch with playing bad basketball, you know. And hopefully we can win a championship. So 50 years from 1971 to 2021 that we didn't win a championship. It was 50 years of failures? No, it was not. It was steps to it, you know, and we were able to win one, hopefully we can win another one? You know, I sorry that I didn't want to make it personal because you asked me the same question last year, and last year I was in the in the right mind space to answer the question back, but I remember it. 

[End of clip]

Tim  29:33
So, when we listen to Giannis talk about failure, when we listen to him answer this reporter's question, what comes to mind for you?

Amreesh  29:42
The question you asked me before, plus the listening to this quote here, right? I think like to tie both together. I don't know if I can say, you know, have I figured out the entire approach that I've taken through my AI company, and how to apply that to leadership in a sense, right, and failure and success? What I have learned is moving from a—what was my bread and butter before, which was, you know, being a dentist and treating patients and running dental practice to going into a startup, right? How that shifted my perception and view around success and failure in a very different way. And so that resonates really well with this quote we just heard, because in a health world, you're very much primed to like, failure kind of isn't an option, right? Like you you can't do something and have it fail or try something out, and you don't think of it that way. Or everything you're trying to do is, is striving for that perfection to help your patient be right?

Tim  30:39
Do no harm.

Amreesh  30:40
Yeah, exactly right. Whereas in a startup world, so much of it is about like, testing assumptions, testing this, trying that, trying this, trying that, okay, you're going to win some. You're going to fail some. That is exactly, I think, what he said, and there's no failure in sport. Well, I think there's no failure in leadership, if we are reflecting on it appropriately. There's good leaders and bad leaders, but if we're those honest leaders that are constantly reflecting about what we're doing, why we're doing, you know, like all these things, that we're thoughtfully and genuinely trying to do what's best. Well, if that's the case, then there shouldn't be any failure in leadership too, because without having the ups and downs and things working and not working, how would we even be where we are today or able to do it right? 

Tim  31:24
That's right. I mean, I remember years ago playing chess with my son, and he said, do you get angry that John beats you at that game? And I said, No, I don't. I don't get angry. I mean, any more than he was getting angry when I was beating him like chess is, you don't learn anything in chess by winning. You learn by making mistakes and then anticipating other people's mistakes. That's really the game. It's a game of mistakes in a way, and opportunities. But yeah, you cannot appreciate where you are today without accepting all the failures you would never be. It's a good thing. We can't affect the time, space continuum, or go back and I. And yeah, mistakes or we would get nowhere. 

Amreesh  32:06
But it's hard. I'll admit it's been very hard, and still is hard for me to kind of shift that perspective in my own mind, because I want to succeed, and how I then define myself and what I'm doing and where I want to go about success, right, and then holding benchmarks or parameters, or what I'm defining that is like, where I think we start to put the pressure on ourselves and all these kinds of things, right? Whereas giving room for that is definitely something I've had to learn in this journey of like being in a technology startup world. I think there's people in a startup who are in that world or big founders that come out. Like, you know, right away. You know, you hear all these, you know, the Silicon Valley stories, and the founders in the basements of the garage is doing things, and they're just like, oh, it's all good. If this doesn't work, I'm on to the next one, right? That's just not how I was wired, right? Like, and so for me to think that way is like, whoa. Like, what do you mean? It's like, okay, if this doesn't work out, like, for me, it's like, no, there's no option. This has to work out. So that's a good thing. It drives but it also, you know, it has its, yeah,

Tim  33:16
Making it work out through perfection too early in the game is really troublesome, right? Because if you go for perfection and you keep and you could burn out like you could, you know, I remember in the 80s, late 80s, Toyota or Lexus had a what was it? The the relentless pursuit of perfection, I think was one of their taglines, right? Or passionate pursuit of perfection, or, or something along those lines. But it's like, yeah. I mean, that's the long term goal, is to make it as good as it can be, and to always know that there's always a step further that we can take. But the journey there is not without failure, not without error, right? So do I have you there? Am I on your wavelength? 

Amreesh  34:00
Yeah.

Tim  34:01
When you think, then when you see this sort of manifesting for the people that are around us and whatnot, I see people that find themselves in periods of scarcity, when they forget that it this is a long game, when they forget that it's okay to experiment and have small, controlled failures, and sometimes even big, gnarly failures, that pursuit of perfection, that insistence on perfection, seems to be really emptying a lot of people's gas tanks. Could you be where you are right now, at this point in life, if you held on to that belief that every move had to be perfect, every move had to be stellar,

Amreesh  34:40
I think for like, you know, high performing leaders who have that ambition and drive, they do hold themselves likely at that high standard, which is why they get to where they are and drive and create change and create companies or lead companies and things right? But what I'm learning is that if everything doesn't work exactly the way I thought it should work, or how I mapped out on a whiteboard and planned it out that that's not failure. 

Tim 35:11
No. 

Amreesh 35:13
Like that is like, just because something you didn't hit that goal, you didn't hit that milestone like, doesn't mean that that is failure. Like, you know, you have to do something about that. But I think, rather than getting into business, operational side of things, it's more about like, my perception of that, right? Like, because I would then perceive that as maybe a failure and not enough, right?

Tim  35:31
If you're climbing the mountain, it's important that you have solid footing, but if you're going to chastise yourself every time your foot slips, you're not going to get very far, right? 

Amreesh  35:41
Yes, exactly.

Tim 35:42
As we wrap up here, I just want to play a quote that you had shared with me that's hanging on your wall. And so we're gonna just, we're gonna listen to that really quick, and then I would like you to tell us what that means to you.

[Man in the Arena (Theodore Roosevelt) read by JFK]

JFK 35:53
Theodore Roosevelt once said, The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause. Who at best, if he wins, knows the thrills of high achievement, and if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

Amreesh 36:35 
Yeah, you know, this is something. There's a quote that I heard reading and listening to like Brene Brown some years ago. And it just really struck me, because it's something that I do read often, and I mean, it's right in front of me as I look here today, and it's, it's funny, because I got to remind myself of it, because it literally says, you know, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, right? And here I am talking about perception change around my failure. And I got the quote right in front of me. But it's like that, you know, I thought a lot about it all because, and for so long, because it, I think, has shaped that we are the ones taking the risk, taking the chances, making those decisions between those two rights, or whatever it is, or right and wrong. We are holding ourselves to such a like, Oh, my God, I have to be right, right? But we're not. 

Tim 37:26 
At every step of the way. 

Amreesh  37:27
Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, like we've are also the ones that have the privilege, the honor and taken the risk to make those decisions in the first place, so that in itself, you know, is daring greatly, that in itself is not failure, failing in that one moment or one decision doesn't define, I think, who we are, right and so and define the what success for us.

Tim  37:53 
And if we're creating that sense of freedom, that sense of space for employees or for customers, or for for my coaching clients, or for dental clients, where it's like, no, we're not going to lose you're not going to lose the wrong teeth. But you know, we can put things into a larger timeline. We can put things into bigger context, so that we can realize that these little decisions sometimes have more flexibility than we would would say otherwise, and we don't have to be right all the time if we're constantly congruent with what our long term aims are. That's a big source of capacity loss for a lot of people, when I see teams that are not, you know, free to fail or not free to to there's just too much risk, and even the smallest errors, perceived risk, particularly man, it tires people out. It makes teams go quiet. There's a whole bunch of awful things that happen internally and externally, if that's what we allow to to exist. 

Amreesh  39:02 
Yes. 

Tim  39:03 
Sorry, now you know what I think. All right, so Amrees, let's, let's talk a little bit about again as we're, as we're heading towards the end here, we heard Karen's question to you. First of all, thanks for this journey. You know, we come a long ways. I think it's, it was a very, very rich discussion. There's a lot of angles here. I think, you know, if you had one wish for the people that are listening today, what would you want them to take away from our conversation.

Amreesh  39:29 
That feeling of you're in a position of leadership, whatever role you're in, management, executive, whatever is doesn't really matter, like you're leading some form of a vision and some form of people in some organization right, to achieve a certain purpose, that it's like, you are enough, you've come this far, that the pressure that we hold upon ourselves to make every decision right, in every way, like we're going to be okay, I got to be more gentle on my own self. So that's where I think it's like, how can we we all take that that like, hey, reflect on where we are. We wouldn't be in this position today if we we didn't have a skill or or some form of influence that got us here. So we've got to trust in that too. 

Tim  40:13 
You think about the eclectic group of people that we have visit this show. If you were to lob a question at one of them, what would it be?

Amreesh  40:19
You know, I like what you were saying about that relentless pursuit of perfection, and, you know, and we were talking earlier too, like, I think we talked about the rejection of perfection, right? So, what is it that you could do or change in how you reflect upon yourself as a leader, to reject perfection, change your perspective on failure and success that would help you be better at what you do today, and have that influence on the people and the purpose that you lead with?

Tim  40:49  
Cool so possibly even a reframing what's one failure that you think You could reframe as a, as not diabolical, not disastrous.

Amreesh  41:00
Yeah, and that, that, you know, reinforces who you are, or shapes how you want to lead differently, I guess.

Tim  41:07  
What do you got going on? What's one thing that you're excited about and you want people to know, know about?

Amreesh  41:12 
Obviously, living and breathing in the world of AI these days, and so, you know, that's something that excites me a lot. I mean, we're seeing the advent of AI in so many aspects of our world. Everybody's playing with chat GPT now, and that kind of thing, right? I think we are seeing that this is going to be a part of our future no matter what. But, you know, there's people who are scared about it, and there's people are embracing it, and there's got to be a happy medium in between, of course, in every way. So what excites me a lot right now is like, how we're incorporating that in the world of health, right? And, you know, I was at a conference last month called Health, one of the largest digital health conferences in North America, and got the pleasure of listening to the VP of health and life sciences from Nvidia, and she was talking about, you know, how the integration of these types of technologies, the large language models, and how they're interpreting and thinking slow to think, thinking fast and thinking slow to reasoning, and how this is going to support us with what we do. And something that, just like blew my mind, is this whole concept of a virtual Omniverse, as they called it. And what we talk about within our company and other health companies is the digital twin concept, like the power of if we use this data and things correctly and use this technology correctly, imagine that world where we can be answering those questions for the patient around I'm going to be providing you this treatment or therapy or medication or whatever, and I can simulate what's going to happen to you before I give it to you. That just blows my mind, because I'm just like, that would be so cool. In a dental world, we always get asked a question, Hey, Doc, you know, can I wait on that crown till my insurance turns over next year or something like that? And I'm we're always like, we don't know what's going to happen until that time. You could bite on something hard one day and it just cracks and breaks off, right? But what if I could give you more information around you know, one patient can wait three months, the other could wait a year, or one needs to do it right now, right? Like, and then the patient's like, holy, this is cool, right? And so I know that's happening a lot in the genomics and therapeutics world and on the medical side too. So pretty cool stuff. Absolutely no.

Tim  43:21 
I think it's great. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Cause to Smile. So how can people get involved in Cause to Smile?

Amreesh  43:28  
Our organization on the charitable side, we have some amazing individuals who volunteer on our board there that we're constantly working to do good beyond the walls of our clinics, and really about empowering dental community, larger community, patients, business, everybody, to come together, to be empowered, educated around what's happening around other grassroots organizations that we can give back to, right? And so you can visit causesmile.com. I'd say, hey, where could we have people involved today is we're actually looking for great people who are excited about giving, who want to be a part of our board. That's where we are today, because we're at a stage right now in our nonprofit that we want to continue to drive sustainability and impact long-term, and we need great people to be a part of that. So that's my one ask is, hey, if that excites you and you're interested, you know, visit causetosmile.com, reach out to me directly. Where would love people that are inspired by some way to get involved and give back to the the local Calgary community. 

Tim  44:27 
Love it. And if people want to get in touch with you.

Amreesh  44:31 
Yes, absolutely. I can share my you know, LinkedIn, Instagram, email, everything you'll have all that. Please reach out to me directly. Love, always open to a conversation any way I can support, help in in any way.

Tim  44:46  
Amreesh, thank you so much for joining us. We'll have all of those links in the show notes. We've been all over the board, but I love it, and so thank you so much. This podcast has really been a reflection of just how rich you are as a person, and how vibrant talking to you is and knowing you, and it's it's really great to see. So, thank you very much.

Amreesh  45:10 
Thank you to Tim. I really appreciate you thinking of me in that way, and humbled by you know that, and I hope that this gives something useful to at least one of your listeners out there. So really appreciate this opportunity too. So thank you so much, Tim.

​Tim  45:83  
Right on. Thank you so much. All right. Well, inspire, influence, educate. Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word, too, by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this inspiring episode, Karen Dommett, Manager of Games and Competition at Special Olympics Canada, joins the podcast to share her journey from rural Saskatchewan to her impactful role in inclusive sports. Karen shares with Tim and listeners how her love for boxing not only shaped her sense of community and resilience but also empowered her to compete and win the Western Canadian championships. She highlights the transformative power of sports in fostering belonging, building confidence, and creating opportunities for connection.

​Episode Notes
In this inspiring episode, Karen Dommett, Manager of Games and Competition at Special Olympics Canada, joins the podcast to share her journey from rural Saskatchewan to her impactful role in inclusive sports. Karen shares with Tim and listeners how her love for boxing not only shaped her sense of community and resilience but also empowered her to compete and win the Western Canadian championships. She highlights the transformative power of sports in fostering belonging, building confidence, and creating opportunities for connection.
​
Karen delves into her work at Special Olympics Canada, emphasizing the social impact of major sporting events and the importance of creating environments of psychological safety and inclusivity. She shares her leadership philosophy, which is grounded in guiding principles, human connection, and fostering a culture where everyone feels they truly belong. Karen also discusses how Special Olympics is changing perceptions of people with disabilities and calls for community involvement ahead of the 2026 Special Olympics Canada Summer Games in Medicine Hat, Alberta.
Tune in to hear Karen’s unique insights on the long-term cultural benefits of inclusive sports, the challenges of leadership, and how we can all make a difference by fostering authenticity and inclusion in our own communities. 

About Karen Dommett
From the rural landscapes of Saskatchewan to the national stage of Special Olympics Canada, Karen Dommett has built a career grounded in resilience, passion, and the transformative power of sport. As the Manager of Games and Competition for Special Olympics Canada, Karen brings a wealth of experience in fostering inclusion and creating life-changing opportunities through sport.

Karen's journey began as a determined young athlete convincing her farming parents to let her take up boxing—a path that not only taught her grit but also revealed her ability to adapt and excel. Her tenacity led her to a Western Canadian Championship title, where she mastered the art of turning challenges into advantages.
With a degree in kinesiology and a love for the collective energy of major sporting events, Karen found her calling in sports administration. From contributing to the World Juniors in Saskatoon to leading national-level competitions, Karen has dedicated her career to creating moments that inspire athletes, build communities, and develop future leader

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Special Olympics Canada
• Sport for Life

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Karen Dommett | Special Olympics: 

• Linkedin: Karen Dommett

Transcript
Karen 00:01
I think everything I've ever learned or felt like the outcome always landed back to in an inclusion moment or social impact or any deep achievement, it's always rooted back to people first and true connection. And whenever there has been that upfront investment in that time, and building that psychological safety, building that connection, and always peeling back that like just people are people are people, man, the efficiency, the return on investment, on human connection, it makes those hard, difficult situations so much easier.

Tim  00:40
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 49 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim 1:12
Welcome to Sweet on leadership. Thanks again for joining me today. I am thrilled to welcome a truly inspiring leader in the world of inclusive sports. Karen Dommett. Karen, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. 

Karen 1:23
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. 

Tim 1:25
From your roots in rural Saskatchewan in your early days as a boxer, which, that's one of the connections that you and I have, because boxing is something that has been a very special part of my life. To your current role of Manager of Games and Competition at Special Olympics Canada. You know, I look at your journey, and it's one of resilience, it's one of passion. It's one of driving social change. And I can't wait till we can dive into it, because I think people are going to get a lot out of it. 

Karen 1:51
Well, thanks so much. 

Tim 1:52
Can you tell me and tell us a little bit about your history, and where do you find yourself now, and what would we see you doing day in and day out. 

Karen 02:02
Yeah, so I guess sport has always played a part in my life. I was always a kid who was begging her farming parents to put her into sports, and somehow convinced them boxing was a sport they should say yes to. And yeah, sport has just always been where I found connection. It's always felt home to me where I have felt sense of community. I wasn't necessarily ever really clear what I wanted to do when I when I grew up. So I went in kinesiology, knowing that was kind of the foundational work for sport, and went into my degree not knowing where I would land, whether it was like a phys ed teacher or physiotherapist or what would happen. And partway through my bachelor's degree, I got introduced to the administrative side of sport, major sporting events, and we had some really cool stuff come through Saskatoon that I got to be a part of, like the World Juniors were there while I was in university, and got to work on some cool student-led projects, and, yeah, I just really saw that, like collective effervescence that happens in a major sporting event, and just how the ripple effects have on community and how you're creating that best moment in someone's life, and how that sticks with them and creates a pathway and motivation for them to give back and do more in community, and how, how you are part of developing other leaders through creating those opportunities. So yeah, then that's really where my career has taken me. It’s kind of just been chasing major sporting events.

Tim  03:41
And furnishing others with those best moments, as you say, right when you think back, if I take you back into the boxing ring, many of us have that transitional, transformational moment in sports when you understand what just happened. You may have to think back on it, but you were a different person a moment ago, right? Do you remember an instant when you were boxing where you reflected back on about or some training and you felt like a different person?

Karen 04:13
I mean, we were a really rural Boxing Club of just like a bunch of farm kids that this was probably the only access to opportunity that we had. So we never took ourselves too seriously. We'd go to big tournaments and cards. And you know, you're up against these, like, inner city kids from Edmonton that are, like, 16 years old, covered in tattoos, and like, we're knocking off, like the horse poop off our boots to get in, and you always feel a little bit out of place. And then, you know, maybe viewing yourself as lesser than or not quite fitting in, in those big tournaments.

Tim  04:48
Did rocky ride a horse?

Karen 04:52
I had, I had had, like, a really tough couple seasons where I was, I was really underweight, so I would always have to try to bulk up. And you know, they're just not that many female boxers at, certainly at that time. And so in order to get a sanctioned fight, I'd often be fighting girls a weight class or two above me. So that didn't come with a lot of wins. And then I had a season where things kind of just really turned around. Found the way to to use my shorter stature and shorter reach to my advantage, and got really good at like, ducking and slipping and working around someone's reach advantage and how to really work the body, and won the Western Canadian Championships. And, yeah, just had that moment of like, Oh, wow. Like, success is something that is actually attainable. To me. It's weird to think that you know, you train and compete in something, and you've just accepted, like you're just actually there for fun and, like, the social part of it, and this is cool, but then, yeah, you actually find your loophole and what works for you and the tools that you have, and how that drove to success that was, yeah, like, a really different moment of like, oh, I don't actually have to accept that the bar is down here. I can use what I have and find a different pathway.

Tim  06:09
I love that it's kind of like you've decoded something for yourself, and you've found how you fit. And that it doesn't have to be everybody else's journey. It doesn't have to be everybody else's style, you figured out your own. And to me, that creates such a different level of possibility for oneself, such a different level of confidence for oneself. And then when you fast forward to what you're doing now, and you describe that effervescence that you create, that bubbling, that buoying up of the entire field, it's giving you know that's seeing a bunch of people on mass have this opportunity to decode themselves and suddenly have this feeling of belonging and this feeling of potential. Does that describe that effervescence as part of it?

Karen 06:58
Yeah, you experience energies and moments that really just like, stick with you and change you when you're part of that collective effervescence, right?

Tim  07:08
Yeah. And those moments, it's so cool, because, would you agree? In my life, I found that those moments, the ones that really matter, it's like a ratcheting up. It's once you've ratched it up, it's very hard to lose that. You know it, it's something that lasts. It's something that sticks with you. It's not like it's fleeting, like it was it. You know that moment of clarity, that realization that you can design yourself to fit a certain competition and to excel that sticks with us. It's not like we lose that and it's so that's to me. It's yeah, anyway, that's what it is to me. Is it is very ratcheting. So it sticks with a person.

Karen 07:53
I think it's that like, what is that quote that Brene Brown has, where the opposite of loneliness is not fitting in, but it's belonging. And like, I think it's that, it's that, that moment where you've stopped trying to fit in and find a way to fit in, but you actually have that true sense of belonging. That's that unlocking of that like, as you put it like that, ratcheting that, you know, you're not trying and and it's not grabbing on. That's what fitting in is, right, that you keep trying it on for size, and it's not working. It's that when you really found your, your authentic way to do it, sticks.

Tim  08:35
I like using the word arrive. I always feel like those people, they arrive at a you know, I remember that feeling when I was, when I was in my first, I would say, major international professional role. There was a moment where I was like, I knew I belonged. I knew I had something to offer. I knew that I could, I could not compete, but I could operate at the same level as everybody around me, regardless of what their specialty was, or how senior they were. And that knowledge that I belonged in that room at that table, was really empowering. Cool. Okay, well, so tell us a little bit more about, you know, the role and what it involves, and what does it take to actually create this effervescence. What is the nuts and bolts of it look like? What are the what are the challenges lend?

Karen 09:33
Yeah, so hosting a multi sport games, I think you know what people are most familiar with would be an Olympic Games. It is a massive logistical, strategic plan that you're starting from, something, from nothing. So we always use the analogy you're building the plane as you fly it, and you're trying to fasten all the pieces, and you really hope everyone's on board. How. Uh, when, and everything's tightened where it's supposed to be when you go to land the plane, and that's the event day. So it is a lot of logistical things, of, you know, beds, adding beds in and meal plans and bus schedules and all those things. But what I think the real opportunity is with major sporting events is the social impacts that it has. So there's so many things that always seem like the nice to haves on the shelf when we talk about legacy that's left behind a major sporting event, and what is most I think, often viewed as facility enhancements. When we talk about an Olympic Games and talk about, you know, the infrastructure that comes as the legacy with a major game standing. We're both based out of Calgary that, you know, we know that our city was built on the legacy of an Olympic Games. What I do in my work with Special Olympics is that we focus less on that physical infrastructure and more on social impacts. So it's not only hosting a really high quality athletic competition in really great venues and logistically really well ran games, but also, how are we changing perceptions of persons with intellectual disabilities. So Special Olympics is designed solely for individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities to compete in sport, because otherwise, without Special Olympics, that access and opportunity for sport and physical activity would not exist for many people with an intellectual disability. So how do we not only create that access and opportunity and quality sport experience for that athlete, but how do we also get the rest of the community involved and change those perceptions of disability? Disability is often something that is feared or is uncomfortable or awkward, and it's not something that people necessarily feel welcomed to partake in, or there's fear of doing the wrong thing, or just fear and ignorance In general, if it's not something that is part of your nuclear circle of your family, right? It's maybe not something that you you think about getting involved with or thinking that it necessarily matters so hosting these huge, huge events that use, take up an entire city and use hundreds of different contractors and partners and sponsors. Every single one of those partnership deals leads to a conversation about disability inclusion.

Tim  12:51
Cool. So if I was to think about that more generally, the easy conversation is, what's the short term economic benefit that it brings to the community? What are the rinks that it might create, or, what are the, you know, what? What's the infrastructure that it might leave behind? And if we were to, if we're parallel this to a business, it's like, what's the operational improvements? What are the, what are the nuts and bolts profit margin that that it's bringing in? But the more lasting effect is, how does it shift the culture? How does it shift the way in which we treat one another? How does it leave people feeling, people humans, beyond just having access to more gear or more depreciating assets? You know? I mean, there's, it's, it's like, what are the assets that don't depreciate? What are the assets that that appreciate, I guess, in a sense, and those can be cultural assets that we leave behind. And it reminds me of our guest that is in the episode that we just had right before you, Harold Horsefall. I mean, he is very much coming up against uncomfortable topics around Truth and Reconciliation and how do we how do we discuss those things, and how do we bring up Indigenous issues? And they're in the middle of building a welcoming space, a shared space on an old trade grounds, or, you know, where people would meet at the confluence of the bow in the Elbow River, and it's literally called The Confluence. And we had this great talk about how, even though there was a sign in North America that everybody understood, even if they didn't speak the same languages, that's where we're going to meet this welcoming space, right? And creating that space. That's a big challenge. And so you know, as the person that's the GM for 2024 Special Olympics, you're now Team Manager going into the 2025 Winter Games, right? You have all of these moving parts, and it's a very, very, it sounds like a very complex and a very. Tough role on top of everything else. So I think it's a great time for us to bring in Harold's question for the guests, because I think it applies. And so Harold's question was.

Harold  15:12
What do you get from your career, and how does your work fill your bucket? What am I doing for this? How does this work for me? Yes, I get to pay the bills, but what does it do for me, personally, like as a person, how does it advance my own journey, my own destination? 

Karen 15:26
I think what I get out of my career, in the work that I do, is perspective. I am so fortunate to get to work in a space that has the opportunity to include so much inclusion and answer so much social issues that I am constantly learning and being afforded perspective that I didn't necessarily inherit. And I think what fuels me so much, and what that gets to me personally, is the ripple effects that that gets to have in my personal life, that my work gives me so many gifts, that it gets to change and influence the conversations that happen around my dinner table, that happens in the Community Groups I'm involved in that it never just stays in a project. 

Tim  16:26
Could you share an anecdote? Could you share a story of one of those perspective moments, those things that, like lit you up and you were like, Whoa, life is not going to be the same after this.

Karen 16:43
I mean, there's like, our kids are our greatest teachers, and so anyways, when you hear an original thought from a five year old, that's a pretty cool moment. So I think for me, you know, we, try to normalize disability so much in the work that I do, and as a result, you know, my husband and kids have got to come along the ride to a lot of really cool initiatives and events. And the hope is that that perspective and normalization of disabilities ingrained in them too. And this sad story, but when my oldest was in kindergarten, in grade three, now, they had their first ever substitute teacher, and there's a little boy in his class that has a lot of sensory processes, processing difficulties, and just very early in that stage of starting to have some of those tools for emotional regulation and sensory regulation in the classroom. And he came home so heartbroken and said at dinner that night that the teacher was really hard on this little boy because she didn't think he was listening. And my son said he's not trying to be bad. He wasn't trying to not follow the rules. That's just how his body works, that he just can't always sit down in his chair all the time, that she just didn't understand that, that different people have different needs, and that's how his body just works. And…

Tim  18:19
It was misconstrued as a respect issue, or it was misconstrued as not paying attention or not not doing their work.

Karen 18:26
Yeah, and I was just like, so grateful in that moment that like that everything I think I tried to lead with of, wherever possible, we try to take an individualized approach, and we try to meet people where they're at to the best of our ability, and to see that that's like ingrained in a five year old was pretty cool.

Tim  18:52
Was it an experience that he had had, or was it a conversation that he had had? If you were to take a guess at some of the pivotal moments, some of those ratcheting moments that he would have had to be able to, you know, stand up for his classmate with with such conviction. What do you think he was exposed to? 

Karen 19:14
So, in a previous role, I was the Executive Director of a project called Calgary Adapted Hub, powered by Jump Start, where we would create different adaptive sporting opportunities and experiences for children and youth with disabilities. So with that, there'd be a lot of like, try it, days of sledge hockey or wheelchair basketball and things like that. So yeah, he would get pulled along to a lot of these events. And, you know, I think he knew more about wheelchair basketball before he ever knew about generic basketball. And just being in those environments where disability was really normalized led to a lot of those conversations on the way home, and those conversations of you might see something today that you might have questions about, and that is good and okay to have questions about that. And I think this is what I think the power of sport and adaptive and disability inclusive sport has is that I don't think anyone ever meant to not be inclusive to a person with a disability. But when we think about, you know, when we were kids, and you see someone on a street corner using a mobility device or an aid, or behaving in a way that is different from what you've ever seen before, you would have looked up to your big person that you were with and pointed and said, what is that? Why are they doing that? Why are they using that? And what was that met with? It was met with your grown up, then being embarrassed and saying that's inappropriate. Don't look, don't stare, don't point, don't shush, shush, shush. So then what's encoded in your body is like, Oh no, I did something wrong. Whatever that thing is, it's bad and scary, and don't look and acknowledge like we shut off.

Tim  21:02
Yeah, no kidding. It get, it gets transmuted onto the person with the disability being wrong instead of, you know, not to say it's not right to ask questions or something. But that whole experience as a young, young child being told like, don't, don't talk, don't, you know, it makes it that forbidden thing you can't talk about, that you can't you know, well, then why? Now I've got, is it scary? Like, what am I? What am I up against?

Karen 21:29
Yeah, and I think, unfortunately, some of that has stayed with us as we become the big people. And we don't necessarily always stop and give that moment of, Oh, wow. That's a really good question. I wonder, like, what do you think? Why do you think that? And if there's a moment where it's appropriate, maybe we go ask. And maybe it's not always appropriate, but you find those sliding door moments.

Tim  22:01
Well, and it's funny, there's a couple ideas that I rail against constantly. And one is that at adulthood, when you reach adulthood, that suddenly you've got it all sort of figured out, or suddenly these lessons stop that whole “shush, shush, shush, we don't talk about that.” Now, it may not be related to a person you know, walking down the street that is using a cane, and we don't understand why, or whatever. But there's other things in professional environments that people shush each other about, and they don't talk about things. They're these no fly zones. And so they become scary, or they become unknown, and they stay unknown, or they become surrounded by myth adults, reinforce these types of, these types of fears in each other along this very same way, like we don't, you know, that's that's verboten. We don't talk about that. And then the other thing is, I think back to, I was a chef at one point in my life, right? And so I remember when we first had our first child, she's 19 now, and I was learning about, you know, what foods to introduce, and I ran across this developmental article, and it said, when you first introduce a new food to a child, their brain is going to freak out, right? And it's going to not know what broccoli tastes like, you know it's going to panic and so their face is going to squidge up, right? But this isn't that they don't like it. This is that this is a brand new sensation. This is a brand new feeling. The brain is just figuring it out. And often, parents will try a child on broccoli or whatever mash peas or whatever they're giving them, and the child will screw up their face, and then the parent will say, oh, you don't like that. Now, the parent says that with a question mark, you know, Oh, you don't like, Oh, you don't like that—question mark. But the child's brain depending on, you know, if it's just reading the inflection or whatever is is hearing, Oh, you don't like that period. And that goes into programming, and that becomes the, oh, they don't like broccoli. Oh, you don't like broccoli, and it's and we program children unwittingly to believe they like or don't like something. They're scared or not scared about something, and this rather than giving them the chance to be uncomfortable or be, you know, unsure of what something is, and work through that, you know, and then fun, you know, funny enough later in life, if you give it a chance, and you can get past, you know, whatever the myth was around liver or brussel sprouts or whatever it's like. I don't actually mind these things like these are you. You know, the taste was never the problem. It was the idea.

Karen 25:04
The story I was telling myself. 

Tim 25:06
The story I was telling myself, and the programming that went on. And I think that that's when you say, you know, shush, shush. We don't talk about that. That's rude. That's like programming on a social level,

Karen 25:15
yeah? And I think you know, to your point, how that exists in team cultures, too, at work, right that? Yeah, I'm a huge believer in the power of what our sporting events can have to the external community, but I think it starts within our team first. And yeah, so I do a few things when I lead a project in how we change our team culture first, because I can't be the only person championing this. It has to be felt throughout. So we always start a project with defining our guiding principles. What are our top three decision pillars that we make every single decision against typically, first and foremost will always be the athlete experience. Creating the best experience in this person's life. But we do it collectively as our leadership group, and then we pulse check those as people come on the team, and then we do rules of engagement, of how do we operate with one another within our team? And that has to match up with what the social impacts are that we trying to make. Because if we're not doing it inside the house, it's not going to happen outside the house. And then some more, like granular things that we do. So in a sporting event, there's always your staff team, but then there's a much, much, much larger volunteer base, and how you create that culture amongst your volunteers is incredibly challenging. So anyone that's listening to this, that maybe works in nonprofit knows the value and importance of your volunteers and how hard that management dynamic can be, like it's such a different ball game when someone is voluntarily doing something, and you know, you don't, you don't often fire a volunteer. If you do, it's really bad. So how you developed that culture is so important. So one thing that we did on these past games, instead of, you know, in oil and gas you typically will open a meeting with a safety moment. We started every single staff and volunteer team meeting with an inclusion moment, and sets the tone for every meeting. So often we'll do like, a two word check in, that I'm a big believer in you temperature check and pulse check where everybody is at when they're stepping space into the room, so that we can have a productive conversation. And then we go into the inclusion moment. And an inclusion moment sometimes is like a funny YouTube video that maybe addresses a topic, or maybe it's a definition of a word that's important to the work that we're doing, or it's more of a conversation, you know, around, you know, as part of these games, we have a mandate to address Truth and Reconciliation Calls to Action 87-91 in any major sporting event, that is your duty. So how does that show up in all of our day to day work, in the language that we're using, not just at what's going to happen at this big opening ceremony, and the blessing that we're going to have and which elder is going to do what, and what that protocol looks like. But how does that reflect in our day to day language that we're using? So what does the term stakeholder really mean, and what are those roots of that word, and how, what language are we going to use instead? And what's the why behind that. We use key contributor. Yeah, so it's, it's those moments of trying to create some more awareness and acknowledgement in those things that maybe were like encoded in us, like that big person shushing you on the corner. It's taking that moment to stop, pause and like completely we're all learning and doing it together. We all can strip off our armor collectively, together as a team, and have that safe and open space of have a conversation about it, and unlearn or challenge our perceptions.

Tim  29:18
Not having to be right, right now so that we can, we can be humble and take on some new information. And, yeah, it's funny, you talked about pillars. And I mean, pillars are something that you see all the time with organizational dynamics, and it's like, these are the pillars, and this is how we stand up, and this is how we behave. I think it's important to say, if these are our pillars, this is what we value. Those pillars, right, that are really important to us, those things that are that are key to who we are. They should also tell us where questions are allowed and where questions are safe. And if the question is offered in the spirit of standing up one of these, then there is no shushing. There is no. There's no need to feel, you know, embarrassed. You can go ahead and ask your question, and it'll be received with the spirit that it's offered, right? And so it's okay to not know in service of that pillar, not just to go and do something, but actually risk something, to be to be unsafe for a moment, and then that's how we're going to rebuild this trust. That's great. I really like that, that idea of not just safety moments, but inclusion moments. I mean, inclusion is safety, right? When we get down to it, you know? 

Karen 30:34
It is psychological safety

Tim 30:35
And so that's something that that, once we understand that, you know, it's not hard to justify taking time to do that. It's really important. If we were, to think about what the average leader could take from this, this conversation in terms of a practice that they could bring into their team, or a mindset that they could take into their claims include inclusive moments would be one of them. What else would you like each leader listening here to challenge themselves, to think about? 

Karen 31:05
I think everything I've ever learned or felt like the outcome always landed back to in an inclusion moment or a social impact or any big achievement. It's always rooted back to people first and true connection. And whenever there has been that upfront investment in that time and building that psychological safety, building that connection, and always peeling back that like just people are people are people, man, the efficiency, the return on investment, on human connection. It makes those hard, difficult situations so much easier. I always kind of lean back to that saying people are hard to hate close up.

Tim  31:53
Yeah, no kidding. That is a great that belongs a t-shirt. I'm putting that on a t-shirt. How that really resonates with me. You know, often professionally, I found that I could design great processes, I could reduce costs, I could identify risks, I could do all those things professionally that I was designed to do, but if we couldn't get people on side, everything was for not like you could. You could do all that work. You could have all the nuts and bolts, all the complexity that you could mitigate through and in your world. You can have all the right number of porta potties or whatever it is, right? Yeah, but if people aren't on board, if they're not along for the ride, there are so many unknown ways that things can get messed up, and all the planning in the world won't compensate for people when they're hurt, when they're scared, when they're angry, when they're you know, whatever that is, no amount of planning can can help us compensate for that. And the inverse is true, right? As you say, when everybody is safe and open and talking really difficult, complex things can suddenly become a heck of a lot easier to accomplish.

Karen 33:09
Yeah, I say maybe, like two things in response to that, that then everyone's off the same song sheet, right? Everyone's marching in that same direction that so many things will get solved without even coming up to the senior leadership level. Problems get managed really well at an operational level, that don't always have to come up the chain, because you've got that shared belief and vision. So, yeah, that's where your return on investment also really comes in. And then your point of, like, the processes and systems. There's this quote from, I think it's Michael Babcock, who used to coach the Leafs, that says, you know, I can have all the different technologies and drills and high performance skating programs, but you wouldn't believe how fast I can get a player to skate when I know the name of this dog, there you go. And it just goes to like that power of human connection, right? 

Tim  33:57
And start where they're at and start with the person. I'd be remiss if I didn't share that when we were having a conversation last week, I was asking a little bit about the appropriate language to use. And I think that that's something just very tactical, besides the great lesson that you dropped here about, you know, hold people first start there. You helped me understand that, legitimately, I wasn't sure, right? You know, it's we used to say that the person was disabled, or we have differently abled, and all these kind of things. And I did some reading about it afterwards and helped myself understand what you had said to me. We now say person with disability, or a person with a disability, or whatever. It doesn't define them. They are a person first and then, like me, I'm a person who's follicularly challenged. I have no hair on the top of my head, but it doesn't define me, right? Well, maybe it does a little bit, but the the point is, you know, people first. In our language, people first in our approach, very hard to hate a person up close. I think that's excellent. I can't wait to use that. I'm gonna pull that out. That's fantastic. Okay, so we heard from Harold Horsefall, and we heard his question. Before we say goodbye here, I want you to have a chance after giving us so much value to lob your question at the next person to visit us, so what would your question be, Karen? 

Karen 35:31
I hope I articulate this in a way that makes sense. So when you find yourself at a crossroads of conflicting good that conflicts with good, how do you find that moment of clarity or that direction in those conflicting moments?

Tim  35:46
Right when you're faced with a choice of where you're going to go and what you're going to do, and both options seem like the right thing to do, but they don't work at the same time?

Karen 35:55
Yeah, yeah. I think it's that you know, you're never going to be amazing at all things. But how do you feel like you're not sucking at everything.

Tim  36:06
Alright, so how do people find clarity in that moment to proceed? All right, I will carry that question forward. 

Karen 36:16
Okay well thanks so much Tim. 

Tim 36:17
No problem. All right, couple of things to clean up here. What are you most excited about what you've got on the go right now that you want people that are listening to know about and possibly get involved in?

Karen 36:27
Being that this is Alberta based Special Olympics Canada Summer Games are coming back to Alberta in August of 2026 they will be hosted in the beautiful city of Medicine Hat, which is not far from us.

Tim  36:42
That's my wife's hometown.

Karen 36:44
So if you want a glimpse of what it looks like to be involved in something so much bigger than yourself, whether it's as a volunteer or a sponsor or get involved as a partner in some way that you can help with this massive logistical event, do check out the Special Olympics Canada, Summer Games 2026 in Medicine Hat.

Tim  37:05
All hell for a basement. As I say about Medicine Hat.

Karen 37:12
Yeah, that's a Hell's Basement Brewery, right?

Tim  37:15
Yeah, that's right. They've put lots of gas under there, all right. So we'll make sure to include links to the 2026 involvement sites, or anything that you can give us there if people want to get in touch with you. Karen, where can they where can they reach out? 

Karen 37:30
Probably LinkedIn is my best form of connection, so just Karen Dommett on LinkedIn. You can find me through Special Olympics Canada as well, but we're a Sport for Life in Cochrane is where spend a lot of my volunteer time, or with Team Alberta as well, when generic sport with the Canada Games movement.

Tim  37:48
Great. And I should mention that we were introduced by way of Erin Ashbacher. So special. Thanks to Erin, because this has been absolutely fantastic. And thanks so much Karen for taking the time to speak to me today.

Karen 38:01
Oh, thanks so much, Tim. And thanks to Erin. 

Tim  38:05
Yeah, have a great day, and we will be following your track forward, and anything we can do here too to help you spread the word, we will do so thank you so much, Karen.

Karen 38:14
Okay, Thanks, Tim.

Tim  38:19
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: Tim Sweet chats with Harold Horsefall, an Indigenous issues strategist from the Pasqua First Nation, about his inspiring path from firefighter to cultural leader. Harold shares his journey rooted deeply in traditional values and leadership principles. Harold highlights the importance of preserving language, place names, and cultural landmarks and how they shape the understanding of the land. Tune in to learn more about Harold’s inspiring story, his current projects, and his vision for the future of Indigenous relations.

Episode Notes
Tim Sweet chats with Harold Horsefall, an Indigenous issues strategist from the Pasqua First Nation, about his inspiring path from firefighter to cultural leader. Harold shares his journey rooted deeply in traditional values and leadership principles. Harold highlights the importance of preserving language, place names, and cultural landmarks and how they shape the understanding of the land. He also opens up about the impact of his family's residential school history, which fuels his dedication to truth, reconciliation, and advancing Indigenous relations through meaningful projects like managing a memorial for residential schools.

Harold offers insights into the progress and challenges in Indigenous relations, noting increased federal investments since 2015 and advocating for greater support in areas like education. He emphasizes continuous self-improvement and aligning work with personal values, drawing parallels between traditional practices like the sweat lodge ceremony and the process of reconciliation. Harold reflects on the balance of material success and personal fulfillment, encouraging listeners to pursue work that contributes to growth and happiness. Tune in to learn more about Harold’s inspiring story, his current projects, and his vision for the future of Indigenous relations.

About Harold Horsefall
Harold Horsefall is an experienced Indigenous Relations Strategist who is focused on creating meaningful relationships between Municipal Government, the Treaty 7 Nations, the Metis Nation of Alberta Region 3, Inuit, and urban Indigenous Calgarians.

Harold has a demonstrated track record of attaining results and is skilled in advancing Truth & Reconciliation to build mutually beneficial outcomes. He is a strategic thinker who aims to co-create with Indigenous Stakeholders. Harold is a well-rounded professional and has a Master of Global Management (International Business) from Royal Roads University. 

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Mount Yamnuska - Wikipedia
• Elbow River - Wikipedia
• A History of the Indian Trust Fund video
• The Confluence - Calgary

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Harold Horsefall: 

• Website: The Confluence
• Linkedin: HaroldHorsefall

Transcript
Harold  00:01
There was a high school in Calgary. It was great. And I'm very thankful I got to go there. It's called the Plains Indian Cultural Survival School. And so in there, like, I got exposed to a lot of traditional values that I otherwise wouldn't have. And so even like pow wow singing, like I did, pow wow singing 10, 20, and 30. And so there's some traditional values that I was focused on. So like to be a leader, you had to be a person who risked your life for your people, for the people, and you did so selflessly. That was the big draw. To be a firefighter, to be able to say that I did that, and I did for seven years. And seven is, of course, if you didn't know, it's a very significant number to Indigenous people.

Tim  00:39
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim sweet. Welcome to Episode 48 of the sweet on leadership podcast.

Tim  01:10
Welcome to Sweet on Leadership. Thanks again for joining us. Today we have the privilege of speaking to Harold Horsefall. You are an Indigenous Issues Strategist. You are a person that I met when I was helping a team with a team building day and a strategy day, and you had me thinking for days after that with your presentation, which I really am grateful for. And luckily enough, one of the people there was was willing to put us in touch. And so here you are today, and I'm really excited for you to be on the show help our audience have a brand new perspective on a number of things, and I think it's going to be fantastic. So Harold Horsefall, thanks for joining me.

Harold  01:55
Oh, thank you for having me. The honor is, the honor's mine. The Privilege is mine.

Tim  01:58
I really appreciate it. So as we get going, here, you and I've had some conversations leading up to this point, and I'd like you to tell us, how do you see yourself? How would you describe Harold the person?

Harold  02:11
Sure, no problem. I guess to start, though, first I'll introduce myself and a name. My name is Harold Horsefall. I'm originally from the Pasqua First Nation, so it's on Treaty 4, just northeast Regina, the Qu'Appelle River Valley. So you know, if you jump in the Bow River, we're in Calgary here, you jump in the Bow River on my on a paddle board, I could get there eventually, but I'm born and raised in Calgary, Alberta here. So I just wanted to say that, and just say hello to any Indigenous listeners out there. Oki, Tân'si, Aaniin, and Dzīnísī Gújā.

Harold  02:41
Oh, thank you so much.

Harold  02:42
And Âba wathtech, sorry, Âba wathtech. I forgot that one.

Tim  02:46
Great. So people are aware, what were those languages you were speaking in? What was your?

Harold  02:49
Aaniin is Ojibwe, or so I'm Cree and Saulteaux, so the Pasqua First Nation is Cree and Saulteaux. Saulteaux is like plains Ojibwe, if you will. And then, Oki, is Blackfoot. Dzīnísī Gújā is Tsuut'ina, Âba wathtech is Stoney Nakoda, and Tân'si, or Tân'si is Cree. But also the Michif, their language, the Métis  language, it tends to be, on average, that the verbs are Cree, sometimes Ojibwe, and then the nouns are French.

Tim  03:20
That is a great way for us to actually take a moment and although we didn't talk about this, but I mean, acknowledge that we are on this land as we record this today. I live just a hop, skip and a jump from the Tsuut'ina right there, like over a street I'm on. What is their land right now. I'm really thankful that we can just all be here and live in harmony together, and I think that it's great that it's such a vibrant part of our community here in Calgary. I remember on that day, when I came home, I was talking to my wife about how you were talking about the Elbow River, and that it was this confluence, and that everyone in North America knew that location, this this elbow, this trading area, was important. I had never appreciated you said you could get in a paddle board and end up where you needed to go, that that was the origin of that, that that word had so much meaning, that it was a that it was a fixed place in the mind of so many people. And that was one of the things that blew my mind that day. As we walked outside, we we looked around so.

Harold  04:28
Perfect. Well, I have another one for you if you want.

Tim  04:29
Please shoot.

Harold  04:30
Okay, so everybody, well, for most Calgarians, go out to the mountains occasionally, or maybe some more than others, and they go past Mount Yamnuska. Yamnuska is so this is a little bit like, how did Indigenous people really know the land really good? And if you read any of the history, you know that was typically because that wasn't always, there was a lot of conflict. The Indigenous people in a certain area always knew their land better than than whoever was coming in. But how? There was no. Google, and there weren't any maps. A lot of it was, was is buried in the language, place names, especially so Yamnuska would be one of those. And my boss used to be Dr. Terry Poucette. She's a she's now a professor at the University of Calgary, and I think she was, she also a professor at University of Victoria. But anyway, she she, she was sharing with us that Yamnuska, if you say that to a Stoney person, that means messy hair. So that would be mount messy hair, which is a mistranslation, because then she said the correct way to say it is "e-yam-nuthka". So that's mount Îyâmnathka, and that means flat faced mountain. So then in the Indigenous languages, like with the confluence in Blackfoot, they say, Moh-kins-tsis. In Stoney they say, Wincheesh-pah. In Tsuut'ina they say, Kootsisáw, the Michif or the Metis called it Otos-kwunee. And they all mean elbow, the confluence of those rivers, yeah. And that would be and so there's all that language, all that variety, and the languages are very different, but they would tap their elbow because, yeah, the way that people would trade there was a sign language, and that sign language tended to be more uniform amongst the various speakers of different languages.

Tim  06:15
Was there a sign for Yamnuska?

Harold  06:17
I don't know that one. I'd have to ask Terry.

Tim  06:20
I should have a flatter face, but, you know, it's probably something. I'll put a I'll put a link for our listeners that are joining us internationally. I'll put a link to a couple of Wiki pages or something so they can actually see these areas and appreciate them later when we go out. I'll tell you a story about how I got trapped in behind Yamnuska, and I had to avoid a bear, and ended up there's a slough back there. And I crossed over, crossed over a creek, which then filled with water, and I had to hike all the way down to the highway, and I came out along Highway, what is it, 1-A, and there's the there's the lodge there, and then hitchhike back to my car, but it's long story so much younger days great. So if we were to think about, well, actually, this is a great opportunity for us to bring up a little tradition here, which is we have a question come from a previous guest. So, your question comes from Melanie Potro in London, who is a professional business and political stylist for women, and very concerned about women's place in leadership. So I'll go ahead and let her ask you a question.

Melanie Potro  07:32
What was the trigger for that person, that made him or her go into that path?

Harold  07:41
I used to work in oil and gas, and I worked in accounting, and I was going to get an accounting designation. But always in my in my heart, I really wanted to be a fireman, actually, actually, I wanted to be a police officer, but my father-in-law talked me out of he said, being a firefighter is better. And so, so eventually, it’s the path I went on. And then, so, while I was a firefighter, a friend of mine was, he was finishing his master's at the University of Calgary, and I was a fireman. So, then I took that career path. One of the benefits definitely was the work-life balance. And it was more like a life-work balance. I had a lot more free time, right? And I used to think, you know, you get you get time, or you get money. So I thought, You know what I want time because, like, that's you can't always just get that. So that was one of the main reasons why I chose being a fireman. At any rate, my friend was working on his master's degree and a side job. He worked hosting an Indigenous relations course that the University of Calgary still offers. It's called the Indigenous relations leadership course. He was leaving the job because he was finishing his program, he asked me if I wanted to do it. So I was like, sure, I'd love to. So I was a fireman. And then I was, I was hosting the Indigenous relations course at the University of Calgary. And then so it was great, because I would sit in on this course for four days. It was offered four days, three, four times a year, and I was sitting on this course. And so it was these professors would come in, and some of them were professors that I had when I did my undergraduate degree at the UofC. And then so they would come in, I started really picking up all the material, and I could, I could really go in depth with this. I was like, hey, you know what? I want to work in this field. And so then I got my own master's degree, global management from Royal Roads University. And then I started to hit the streets. I was like, Okay, I'm going to consult in this area. And I ended up meeting somebody at the City of Calgary, and they said, Well, I can't hire you because you're already an employee, because I was a firefighter. And then so then I was seconded into the, into my into that role that I have in my day job.

Tim  09:38
And that, of course, has led you to where you are today, and I really liked how you described how you see your position and how you see your own profession. So could you give us a little bit of that?

Harold  09:48
Sure, yeah, I guess I'll start though, is that my day job or the profession in which I'm in is more a deeper expression of myself. Because my mother went to the Lebret Indian residential school, and then so, as a result, we had in my family, my grandparents, there were very significant cultural, prominent people in our community. You know, they were healers, and all that information was lost. So they, like my mom was that the 12th youngest, and so she by the time she went through the residential school system, they just, I don't know the whole story. I didn't get to meet my grandparents. They passed away before I was born, but I just assumed that, you know, they learned that it was just much easier on the child if they didn't teach them as much, or really anything, especially in terms of the Indigenous language, my mom can hear it, and, like, if she hears it, she understands it, but she doesn't speak. So, a lot of those values kind of were, like, they kind of just went poof, right, which is a whole nother long story. And on my own time, I have a grant going forward. I'm hoping, crossing my fingers, I get it, and I'm going to dive deep on that story.

Tim  11:10
Can I just ask, when you say that they thought it would be kinder on the child, does that mean that the lessons and the language and everything, if they had passed it along, could have been a liability or could have been a risk for that, for that child.

Harold  11:23
Yea, 100%.

Tim  11:28
Because the more they related to that, the more in danger they were.

Harold  11:31
Yeah, and literally, they would get beatings and worse, the beatings would be the easy part.

Tim  11:38
So, to protect the protect the child, you have to protect them from their history or from their legacy.

Harold  11:45
Yeah, because the goal of those schools was to eliminate the Indian in the child. Sometimes, yeah, and we won't go too dark, but sometimes it went further than that.

Tim  11:54
So well, it is a history that is really painful and shameful, and it's something that everybody, I would say, around the world, like so many other atrocities that that human beings have managed to inflict on one another, they need to be appreciated, and they need to be brought into the light, right? And so people can see how we've evolved and why. It's not all pretty, that is for sure. But to sum that up. You had said that you consider yourself a practitioner, and I really, really love that term. So, could you just introduce us to that?

Harold  12:27
Sure, yeah, as a practitioner of truth and reconciliation, you know what I do is to advance truth and reconciliation. So, one of the projects that I'm currently managing is a memorial for Indian residential school to create an environment of a reconciliatory environment between Indigenous and non Indigenous people. And part of it is getting this kind of information out there. That is a huge part of it, actually. Another part is to actually give a physical place that people can go for this kind of information.

Tim  12:57
And, and that will be at that at that confluence.

Harold 12:57
At the Elbow, yes. At the confluence, that’s correct.  

Tim  13:00
And, and so, you know, in a sense, that's really, I mean, I'm just thinking about this now, I kind of getting goosebumps a little bit. But it's like, if you think about trading the most important things, then trading in that story and that knowledge and that ability, what a place to do it right? Because people who come from around the world to actually trade in that knowledge, and…

Harold  13:27
That's what I'm hoping.

Tim  13:30
Oh, man, that didn't hit me until sort of just now. So that's a whole different level. I love the word practitioner, because when we think about leaders and people who are really, they're really moving thought forward, and they're helping people embrace things, and helping people become, you know, their own, powerful individuals, people that that can express themselves in the world. You know, a practitioner, in my mind, is somebody that you don't, that doesn't just talk like they do. They, you're seeing them practice whatever they are. They're espousing. It's so much more powerful than somebody who is simply theoretical. I think that's such a great word, and I think that's where we're going to be heading today. So, before we get too much into that. I also want to just ask you this, if we were to see Harold Horsefall on any given day, what are we going to see? What is, what is? What is Harold Horsefall, the person, engage in, day in, day out?

Harold  14:33
Day in, day out. I guess, like I've started volunteering in an effort to really get out there. So, I volunteer for the University of Calgary Alumni Board. So, so I've been, you know, making my best to go to as many networking functions as possible, just to really get in there with people. I'm part of a meditation group, and I think that that's really helpful. And I have four children, so that's definitely above average, more than the average Canadian. So, yeah, I'm but my youngest is fourteen now.

Tim  15:04
You're a practitioner of sorts there.

Harold  15:08
Oh, yeah, almost accomplished. I'm almost like, on the verge of being an empty nest, empty nester. But my youngest is 14, so maybe three, four more years, and then he’ll go to university then, and then, that's a whole nother, you know, it seems it's so expensive for the kids out there, right? Because I have a daughter who's at the UofC now, and she's still at home with us. Yeah, it's just so expensive out there.

Tim  15:29
It is, yeah, it's, it's something that just learning how to, how to exist in this world is such a wake up. My kids are going through the same thing right now.

Harold  15:39
So, then I'm like, the comma rents, you know, the pa-rents, free rent.

Tim  15:44
Yeah, there you go. Pa-rent. When we think about you meditating, and you and I talked about, you know, really making sure that we take time to develop ourselves and whatnot. How do you see people that are out in the workforce, when you see them managing their own lives and going through things and, you know, besides just your children, but people that you work with in, day in, day out, the community members we've got around us. What do, how do you see their relationship with time? Again, you talked about trading time for money that you would take time over that. What do you see out there in the in the world?

Harold  16:27
Oh, geez, a lot of people, you know, and I'm, I live in a material world, and you know, I prefer to have, you know, good, solid look good. Good, solid goods. And, you know, even clothing that makes me look good, right? But that said, like, definitely, I see, I see many people just chasing, like, this carrot, and you know, that's fine. It's good an all. But why? What does it do for you? Because I even got to speak with some, through the alumni, not through the Alumni Board, this is before I was on the Alumni Board, but through Career Services, because that university and the Indigenous relations course was through Career Services. And so I did speak to some alumni, some graduates, some new graduates, and as part of a panel, and I was like, Well, you know, like, you should really focus too on the things that make you happy, because even if you make a whole bunch of money, like, eventually the, I hope this doesn't get dark for people, but it's like 100% the one thing that we are sure of is that we will pay taxes and we will die. And so, it's like, so say you make, like, a billion dollars. You can't take it with you, not that I know of, right? So, so it's like, really, like, for your own self, like, and this was my, my message to new grads, right? And I don't know how it was received, but I felt that maybe it wasn't received as popular as some of the other people, because one person was, like a new they had a position with the Royal Bank of Canada, and it was like a director or something. And so that was the person, oooh we gotta like, you know, go around that person, and I'm just like, well, you know, you got to really focus on your life and what makes you happy as well. Doing well materially is good, but also making sure, hitting that it's like a Venn diagram, hitting that intersection between what's personally satisfying, I think, is also important.

Tim  18:15
I think that's a very interesting reaction to notice. I've seen the same with young leaders and even some accomplished leaders, that when you offer them a perspective that causes them any sort of doubt, when they're in a blind pursuit of something, you know, when they're heading towards something and they've either omitted facts or they've biased themselves towards things to overcome questions or fears or whatever they're doing, so that they can charge ahead in a certain area. And if one of those things is, you know, hustle culture, so it's like, no, you got to work hard, and you work hard young so that you can be rich later and get what you want or whatever. Anything that questions that, it's like it erodes the bedrock of what they or would actually say, erodes the house of cards that they're building themselves up upon. And it can get really scary for people that they will reject that thought outright, like, let's just not go there, because playing in that area is just it carries a lot more risk than we might realize for that person, because they're, they're built up on that. That's, you know, and I think it's, it's an, also an interesting thing, that when you meet people down the road in their careers, when they realize that they've built their approach on really shaky ground, and it'll last for a while, until the universe demands the truth. And then guess what? They're kicking in the water. They're thrashing around pretty good. So the earlier that we can get to truth, the earlier that we can get to facing these hard facts and really questioning what our assumptions, I think is a is a is an important point. I hope I took that in the right direction there.

Harold  20:07
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure, yes. Great conversation.

Tim  20:09
So when you think about the reaction of people to wanting to be around the person that emulates what they want to be, they want to be around that bank executive or whatnot. Tell me a little bit about that. What does that mean to a person besides, you know, potentially being an expression of we can see where their priorities are. But what's the hazard that comes out of that?

Harold  20:34
Oh, geez, I'm not sure. I've never really thought about that from somebody else's perspective, because, like, I wrestled with that, whereas, like, wanting to pursue a career that's gonna make me a lot of money and whatnot and high powered career, but for me, like, internally, I just couldn't there was this, like, a it was, like, it was a force field or something that I just couldn't get past. And because, like, for me, it was just, I really needed to, personally be able to be 100% invested in what I did. For example, it’s the real old school traditional value on the plains. The best way to say that, I say I'm a Plains Indian. There was a high school in Calgary. It was great, and I'm very thankful I got to go there. It's called the Plains Indian Cultural Survival School picks and so in there, like, I got exposed to a lot of traditional values that I otherwise wouldn't have. And so even, like, pow wow singing, like I did, pow wow singing 10, 20, and 30. So, you know, like, it was great. And so there was some traditional values that I was focused on. So like, Crowfoot. Hugh Dempsey wrote a book on Crowfoot. And so it was, it was done really good and huge. Dempsey is a local southern Alberta historian, or was before he passed to be a leader for me as a plains from the plains culture, where we had teepees and we buffalo hunted, so that, like some people say, they who are Indigenous people, and that's what they'll think of teepees and buffalo culture, but that's the plains culture. Whereas in like out east, they lived in houses, and they were farmers. And same with out west. They were they lived in houses, long houses, and they also farmed and they fished and they traded. But for me, that's, that's what it was. And to be a leader. You had to be a person who risked your life for your people, for the people, and you did so selflessly. That was the big draw. To be a firefighter, to be able to say that I did that, and I did for seven years. And seven is, of course, if you didn't know, it's a very significant number to Indigenous people. There are seven brothers in the sky, so the Big Dipper stars. And other than that, that's some, actually part of the grant that I've got forward and crossing my fingers that I'm going to explore many of those issues. But four is also another one. And I do know more reason about why four is significant. There are four seasons. There are numbers that we tend to see in nature. So then there are four seasons. And then, accordingly, you could even break up your day to be like the four seasons. You wake up in the morning, and then you have your afternoon, and then your late afternoon into the evening, and it's almost like a mini cycle. So you're in a mini cycle on a bigger cycle inside of a bigger cycle. So four seems to be the number that is most associated with cycles.

Tim  23:06
There's so much there that we could unpack, but it immediately makes my mind go to my friend Julie Friedman Smith, who's a parent and coach here in town, and she's part of our association here, helping our clients out. And she said something that was very similar at one point to me. And she said, you know, people will often, they'll say whether or not their day was a success. And she said, it's much better if you if you can develop the language where, you know, well, the morning wasn't a success, or this last hour wasn't a success, but the next one can be. And you chunk things down into that sort of seasonal thinking, where it allows us to be a little more gentle on ourselves, and refocus and rebase and kind of have these cycles within our life. But as you were speaking there, I was thinking back to you saying that you're a practitioner of truth and reconciliation. Now, truth and reconciliation in Canada has a very specific meaning, which I think is important, but more broadly, the pursuit of truth. What's the truth of who we are and where we're sitting, and then reconciling with that? And I often think of that like doing the math right, like getting to the facts doing the math, and say, We have to reconcile ourselves with the facts of what just happened, and that takes some work right to get through it. And so the importance of that as a program can't be understated. The importance of that as an approach to life is also something that's fairly important, is getting down to that, where am I actually, and how do I feel about that, actually? And what does it mean for me, actually? Where are we actually? What's the truth of that? So if I can have you sort of expand on that a little bit. Could you tell me where you think we are in that journey?

Harold  24:57
So I guess I would say first that in. General, the atmosphere in Canada is is quite good, in the sense that if you use the idea of like Pareto improving, it's been a while since I since I've done economics.

Tim  25:10
80-20 rule.

Harold  25:11
Yeah, exactly. But just if you take like each day, or even each hour, and like and to the person that you mentioned. So if you took yesterday or even 20 years ago. And if you looked at the status quo of what it meant to be Indigenous in Canada, and then you look at it today, there's improvements. And so some of those improvements are definitely like, so I went to the University of Calgary, and if we look back into the 1980s if you go to the, it's called the Writing on Symbols Lodge now, it used to be called the Native Student Center when I went there, so I'm dating myself, but there's a graduate list on the wall. And in the 80s, there was like one, and then the next year, like 1985 or something, and then the next year there'd be like two or three, and then it's kind of went up, like a logarithmic scale. And then it's like, okay, that's awesome. So whatever it is that the environment is definitely there. And so even then, you know, a lot more people are respectful. And even just that, the way that we opened on this podcast, I think that was, that was excellent, and I'm finding a lot more people are much more open. It's still a long journey. And so my approach as a practitioner is always like so when I was young, I managed to reclaim a good chunk of my culture, and I did that personally while I was a teenager, so, you know, and I still did live a teenage life, but I also did do a life where I went to a lot of ceremonies, especially sweat lodges. They were very important. I was very blessed and fortunate. And you know, I would get myself to these sweats when I was, like 16. And a sweat lodge, for those who don't know, is, is, it's like a cleanliness ceremony, it's a spa and it's a sauna, but then it's dark, and we sing songs, and you do a lot of prayer or focusing like, I guess you could find it in like Bhuddist culture, they call that single point focus. So you do a lot of focus on that thing that that you are concentrating upon to live a good life, was the one that was general for me. But the thing with a sweat lodge is that when you go in and it symbolizes rebirth, in a sense, but when you go in say that you're taking in a whole bunch of negative kind of crap that kind of lingers in you through this process, you sweat it out. And the idea is that all of your impurities go with that sweat, and it cleans you out both like physically and spiritually, in addition to other areas. So it's more holistic in that sense. And so you have to sit in that initial if, say, you go in and you have a lot of negative energy and you're sitting in there, it's painful in the sense that it hurts, it's uncomfortable, and it's in the dark and it's somewhat crowded, so a lot of fears are already triggered for many people. So then you just have to learn to sit still through all of that. It's uncomfortable. You sit through it, and then eventually, when you come out, then I would say that reconcile. So that's like, kind of my model for truth and reconciliation. It's like sitting in a sweat. It's uncomfortable, but you sit there and you do it. Sometimes you'd even come out and you know, you'd be pretty red, bright red, almost like a little bird sometimes, but you know, and that's the thing, is, like, if it gets hot, you can't once the door is closed, you have to wait until the door is open, or you could go run out screaming. But it's generally, it's not advised and it's frowned upon. So you have to sit still. And that's the thing, when it gets really hot, if you like, start thrashing around and panicking, it just escalates on the top of itself, and you end up in a mess, right? So you have to really sit still, and you have to sit quiet, and you can't move, especially when it's really hot. That's one of the things I learned, and actually came in really handy, is when I was a firefighter working in really hot environments, because in, like, physically hot, because you don't move too fast. You have to stay composed, and you have to actually move very slow, and you have to be very purposeful with each movement.

Tim  28:47
So quite literally, you're sitting there having to face all of those things that are are weighing on you, moving you forward or holding you back. You have to take some deep, honest reflection and emerge with some increased amount of fluency about who you are and where you're going.

Harold  29:09
But that's the magic, because, like, you surrender to it, and then you when you do get out, you definitely are better than when you went in. And if you keep doing that repeatedly over time, then that's when you see the benefits.

Tim  29:22
I think that's cool too, because you haven't said anything really, although you're sweating it out. It's not like these things, these things remain. They're part of you, in a sense, right? But your relationship with them is different, and you can process it differently. You can handle it differently. When I go back to that thinking of those young people at the university that are new in their career and their and their orienting around about wealth and who they want to be. And we also talked about openness being so key to this, and then the societal openness may be open at one point, but then be getting more closed in other ways. Often, you know, we think of things in a static place that it's either open or it's closed, we're open or we're closed. The society around us is getting more open or more closed, but it's like this pendulum that kind of swings and seeing things in that cycle pattern, as you said before, where we have to be observant about that and whatnot. Do you think that it's getting better right now, or is it getting worse? Or are we on a pendulum, or is it, you know, where are we at this?

Harold  30:31
It's definitely getting better. A colleague of mine did send me email that in terms of finances, and it says, since 2015 This is taken from the Fraser Institute.org, and it says Since 2015 the federal government has significantly increased spending on Indigenous peoples from roughly 11 billion to more than 32 billion. You know, that sounds like that could sound like taxpayer money, but I don't. I would be more curious to dive into that. That's a whole process unto itself. But there is a large trust fund that is held on behalf of Indigenous people, and that's where many Indigenous things, like in education, which was negotiated during the treaties. In essence, I've done Indigenous relations courses for various organizations, corporate organizations. And one item that I like to always point out to, and I don't have it handy on a presentation, but if you look at annual GDP of Canada, and then you can, you can even look at areas like from natural resources, and you look at that value on an annual basis, and then you compare it to what the treaty rights are. So I get $5 a year, and I get education, maybe, maybe I get education. That in itself, is a whole episode. Probably do really investigating that, but it is pennies to billions of dollars. So then you think like, that's really where it is. So a lot of those funds, though, do come from a National Indian Trust account. And I encourage you to google it. I could probably even just throw in a link to a short video.

Tim  32:10
We'll put that link in the show notes for you.

Harold  32:11
Sure. Yeah, and it's put together by the Yellow Head Institute, and it's a really good video to watch. And it's just a short video, two and a half minutes, I think maybe two and a half to it's under five minutes.

Tim  32:18
Yeah, I think that's that's a really important thing too, for people to for Canadians to appreciate. Because there's a lot of myth and a lot of, I would say, bias and hearsay that goes into exactly proportionally. How do we support our native communities? How do we make good on the on the Treaty and the agreements that were promised? And it's pretty shocking when you see, you know what it actually means on an annualized basis. And then, oh, on the flip side, I'm optimistic with what you've said in terms of this exponential growth in education and whatnot. Because as I follow Indigenous creators, and I've got a few, as I was telling you before, people that I'm really, I'm really enjoying, kind of having in my life, and following their journeys, and, you know, appropriately consuming their content. There's a positivity that's out there, and there is an optimism that's out there, and there is a and there's an energy that's out there, which I think is just fantastic. And so although the totals may not be appropriate, and there's definitely room to move there. What people are doing with the time and the opportunities they've got is so inspiring. So that, to me, means that there's a new energy, there's a new confidence, there's a new identity that's coming out, and I think it's a steam roller. I think it's unstoppable. You know, you think of that, that Jim Collins example of the flywheel, if you've ever heard this, where you have this massive flywheel, and it's the size of a city, and one person could go up against it, and they could smack it one way or the other, and the thing wouldn't even move. It would be like a monolith that wouldn't even move. And often we have communities that are all smack it in different directions, and so the thing couldn't start to move even if it wanted to. But if we get enough people slapping that thing in the right direction, it starts to shudder, and then it starts to spin, and then it spins faster and faster, and pretty soon, that thing, which we thought was immovable, is under its own energy. And it's, you know, it's unstoppable, so that any one unreasonable and logical dissenting voice can't, can't stop it. So that's, that's what, what I hope for, is that unstoppable momentum.

Harold  34:39
Sure, I definitely I would get on board with that.

Tim  34:43
We'll be smacking that flywheel. Yes. Cool. So as we sort of head towards the end, what would you like us to focus on? Was there somewhere we didn't get that you would like us to get?

Harold  34:56
Really like for me, these are like questions in my own. Mind that I just can't something in me always brings it back to the service. Hey, I need to focus on this and so, like, continuous improvement would be one of those things in that focusing myself, like, what do I want from my careers? And that was the thing I do have a question for the next guest.

Tim  35:17
I love that you're unprompted, go for it.

Harold  35:22
What do you get from your career? And how does your work fill your bucket? Because those are things that I always ask myself. And so what am I getting from this? What am I doing for this? How does this work for me? Yes, I get to pay the bills. Maybe I get to get to I have a thing for boots. My wife will tell you, I buy too many boots. She's probably right. So like, in addition to me getting a new pair of boots, but what does it do for me personally, like, as a person? How's it, uh, advanced my own journey, my own destination? People, quote, like, Crazy Horse. If they don't know who Crazy Horse was, from the American point of view, they say, well, he's like, hoka hey, it's a good day to die. Like, he's gonna charge out there on the battlefield and but that's not what it was. That's only like half of the quote, because…

Tim  36:03
I think [who?] from Star Trek, said that. But what did Crazy Horse actually say?

Harold  36:10
He said, hoka hey, today is a good day to die, because all is well with the world. And the Stoney Nakoda, because they're, they're, they're Nakoda Sioux, they say Âba wathtech , and that's their greeting, and it means hello, today is a good day. I think it's implied all is well with the world. So what that means is, like for you inside, is everything well, in the sense that, if you were to die, would you feel that there are unresolved issues? And so really, then your attention, for me, that exercise brings me to like, okay, what are those unresolved issues and I gotta address those. Sometimes they're scary, sometimes they're hard, but it's just like sitting in that sweat, right? And so, so for me, that's what I would leave. And the question I'd post to the next guest.

Tim  36:53
How is what you're doing? How is it filling your bucket that is something that I can relate to, I'm really passionate about. You know, often when I'm working with executives, etc, you know, one of the things when we're we're looking at career, when we're looking at where they are, is to have them focus on, from a career perspective, what is the best day of the last year you're ever going to work look like? And are you heading towards that as a reality? And then more generally, are you in balance in your life? Right? Like, are you are do you feel like you're where you belong? And do you feel like that you've got this beautiful flow going on that you have enough sense of control or stability and you still have the right types of excitement and anxiety and those things, I feel like we've just scratched the surface here, Harold. So one thing I want us to do is is stay up to date on your grant and your research project, and want to make sure that when that gets rolling, you come back and we and we talk about that.

Harold  37:59
Perfect. Sounds great.

Tim  38:00
Yeah, I think that would be great. And in the meantime, if people wanted to reach out to you, if they wanted to, if they wanted to experience what I experienced, or if they were interested in the confluence, where can they find they you?

Harold  38:14
They can go to the confluences the website, and I think it's www.theconfluence.ca or something, or just Google “the confluence Calgary”.

Tim  38:23
Sure, we'll put that link up in the show notes.

Harold  38:25
Yeah,if you want to get in touch with me, please reach out on LinkedIn: Harold Horsefall.

Tim  38:29
right on, lots of exciting things coming up for you. Thank you very much for dropping the question for our next guest. Harold Horsfall, it was just an absolute treat to have you on.

Harold  38:39
Thank you, Tim.

Tim  38:29
I can't wait till we can meet at that conference together. I'm really itching to get there.

Harold  38:45
Sounds great.

Tim  38:46
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this final retrospective episode of the year, Tim Sweet delves into the concept of capacity, exploring how it extends beyond time and energy to include personal priorities, relationships, and intentional choices. Drawing on insights from past guests, Tim underscores the importance of leaders prioritizing themselves to avoid burnout and make space for personal and professional growth, learning how to take steps outside the comfort zone for new challenges, and focusing on key goals while relying on facts instead of hope. Tim concludes the episode with a call to action, encouraging listeners to evaluate their current state, identify areas of over-commitment, and align their choices with their goals and values.

Episode Notes
In this final retrospective episode of the year, Tim Sweet delves into the concept of capacity, exploring how it extends beyond time and energy to include personal priorities, relationships, and intentional choices. Drawing on insights from guests, including Renee Miller and Anna Morgan, Tim underscores the importance of leaders prioritizing themselves to avoid burnout and make space for personal and professional growth. 

Additional clips from past guests, including Richard Young, highlight the power of evidence over hope in decision-making, while Dan Löfquist and Julie Friedman Smith discuss the rewards of stepping out of comfort zones to embrace challenges and foster adaptability. Jeff Massone emphasizes the transformative role of positive relationships, and Tim Beissinger shares how focusing on key goals can lead to significant achievements. These conversations provide a holistic view of capacity as a critical leadership tool.

Tim concludes the episode with a call to action, encouraging listeners to evaluate their current state, identify areas of over-commitment, and align their choices with their goals and values. By creating space for what matters and surrounding themselves with supportive relationships, leaders can build capacity for success. Tune in to discover actionable strategies for intentional living and leadership.


Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

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Transcript
Tim  00:00
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim sweet. Welcome to Episode 47 of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast.

Tim  00:31
Today we're diving into the critical topic of capacity. Capacity is about more than just having enough time or energy. It's about making room for growth, prioritizing what matters and understanding how we lead ourselves and others sustainably. We'll be drawing on insights from nine incredible guests to explore this theme. These are leaders, thinkers, experts, who have all shared authentic, surprising and fearless perspectives on how we can unlock our own potential while creating environments where others can do the same. They've been my guests over the last year with Sweet on Leadership podcast. So I'm eager to dive in. Capacity begins with prioritizing yourself. As leaders, we often focus so much on serving others that we forget to check in with our own needs and aspirations. But here's one truth, you cannot pour from an empty cup and a well that gives no water is just a hole. When I spoke to Renee Miller in Episode 42 her perspective on this was both authentic and actionable. Renee one of two intrepid thru hikers that join me, challenges us to see how easy it is to get caught up in daily demands while sidelining our professional and personal dreams.

Renee Miller  01:42
You get so caught up into your daily lives, and the tasks that you, you know, you go to work and have to get all these tasks done and come home and have responsibilities at home, but yeah, you kind of forget about yourself. And you know, what about that professional engineering license that would be really good for my career? Oh, I don't have time for that, because I'm busy working and, yeah, just talking with people and reminding them to prioritize themselves and their resumes, and it'll probably be good for their company as well.

Tim  02:20
Prioritizing yourself is not selfish. It's essential for sustainable leadership. Anna Morgan, a career coach and speaker, added another layer to this. In episode 31. Anna spoke powerfully about the importance of balancing your professional identity with the things that bring you joy outside of work.

Anna Morgan  02:37
Care about yourself enough, and this is the other thing I see, especially at the manager to executive level, is people get so wrapped up in their identity as a small company CEO or as an executive, and it takes me so much time to unwire and alchemize a lot of that identity that if I don't have that I am less than or I'm not enough, and it's balancing out and making sure that you have hobbies and side hustles and things that bring you joy outside of that 40-45, plus hour work week, so that you are just not in that rabbit hole of you know work which, and then you look at your life, because nobody on their deathbed is going to be like, I wish I worked more right? They're going to say, I wish I spent more time with my kids. I wish I went on more trips.

Tim  03:41
Servant leadership is an important concept, but we can't let work, we can't let our roles as leaders define us entirely. Our capacity expands when we make room for joy and relationships and fulfillment and development beyond our current office, beyond our current team. But it's not all feelings, capacity also depends on evidence, concrete facts that help us move from I hope this works to I know this works. If you're seeking to manage your capacity, the word hope should be a red flag. If you're using it, you're no longer in the driver's seat. You're playing the lottery without evidence. We risk making decisions that are based on emotions instead of facts. Richard Young, my friend, a performance researcher and the author of Simplify and his new book Amplify, shared a powerful story in Episode 27 about how evidence can close performance gaps.

Richard Young  04:34
They said, "hoping" is a flag for evidence that's missing, and "knowing" means the evidence the gap has been filled. So it's a good word, generally, universally, for human nature to have hope. But in the performance game, it's another trigger, and there needs to be a leader who spots that and says, Well, it's, you know, I hope it all comes off. So before Olympics, I hope I get Lane eight. So there was one rower who was world champion, and they started to fade, and they became kind of disillusioned with their fitness. And the psych team, an army of good intent, you know, wrap themselves around her. But it turns out it was, and I had this one in the book as well. It turned out it was the evidence that they had numbers for, but she wasn't aware of them, and so he just presented those numbers to her every day on how she was tracking. And suddenly she had evidence that it's not as bad as I thought. Feelings aren't facts. Facts are facts. And so suddenly her progress since she became world champion that year, and he knew it wasn't mindset, because you can't hope your way to victory. You do have to have prep. You know that goes into flow, which we can talk about later.

Tim  05:55
Context brings calm. It's a saying that I love, and it's truly t-shirt worthy. Evidence fuels confidence and clarity, and when you focus on what you know, you can build capacity with intention and precision. But how do we know what to focus on? Sarah Elder, founder of Piped, a platform helping engineering interns document their most meaningful experiences, shared in Episode 18, that the first step in building capacity is understanding your current state, often in the simplest of ways.

Sarah Elder  06:29
Once it's written down, you can't ignore it anymore. Tim, you talked earlier about building capacity. You can't build capacity. You can't you can't have capacity without understanding the state. So getting everything into one place and being able to understand that is the first step in building capacity. You can't cut what you don't know, or you might cut and it might not be enough.

Tim  06:52
Whether it's your time, energy or goals, getting a clear picture of where you stand is key to moving forward. As we continue this clinic on capacity, we must realize that it also requires us to leave the familiar behind. Growth that gives us the ability to handle more is found outside our current comfort zones. Dan Lofquist, a technology consultant and one who shares the Red House of Debbie Potts, emphasized how stepping out of a comfort zone drives growth and adaptability.

Dan Löfquist  07:23
That's how I try to be myself. I mean, I can't stick to old things that doesn't work and it doesn't make me happy, and I can't do my job properly. So I need to adjust and then learn new things, new processes, new techniques or whatnot. In order to move forward, I think you have to have that mindset, and also it's good for you, because if you are in your comfort zone, nothing fun or exciting is going to happen every day. It's going to look the same. In order to have some kind of excitement in your life or in your workplace or anyway, you need to step out of that comfort zone, because the amazing things happens outside, but it's a scary place, but it's very rewarding if you're there.

Tim  08:15
Growth is always on the other side of fear. Taking bold steps to develop outside of your comfort zone, leads us to rewards that you never thought possible. This is one area that pays dividends again and again and again, but easier said than done. Right capacity isn't just about adding more to your plate. It's about making choices trade offs. It's about carving out space for what truly matters and who truly matters and being true to yourself in the process. Julie Friedman Smith, again, great friend, teammate, author, podcaster and a parenting (my parenting expert) spoke about this in Episode 34. Julie captures the uncertainty that many of us feel when we're navigating our roles and responsibilities outside of work, often asking ourselves, Am I doing the right thing?

Julie Friedman Smith  09:05
I'm doing all these adult things. I still do not feel like an adult. I'm not even sure that what I'm doing is something I like, but I'm not sure how to get out of it, or, am I going to look stupid for getting out of it? Or, you know, and, and that is what another time where we kind of take that left turn of like, oh, it could be different. And if this is what adulting is really about, how do I do it in a way that makes sense for me, instead of playing the role of adults, how am I going to be an adult that's really true to myself? So I think there's a, there's some kind of a pivot point in that mid 30s that comes along as well.

Tim  09:42
I remember, in my experience, it was almost like a you start to focus on something a little bit more, and you have to cast off certain hobbies, and you have to cast off, even in some cases, friends and certain social groups. And it's like I have to pick my lane, in a way, I guess is how it...

Julie Friedman Smith  09:59
Or I want to, also, I want to do this like I want to spend time doing what I really want to be doing, if I can. Or maybe the question is, how do I spend time doing more of what I really want to be doing? I have these obligations. I've got to meet those things. I've got to meet the needs. I've got to earn the money that I need. And, you know, fulfill these obligations, and how do I carve that piece of my life that's really fulfilling?

Tim  10:25
In truth, to be in charge of our own capacity means continuously evaluating our choices. Carving time out for what truly matters means being intentional and courageous about how we allocate our energy. Capacity and capacity management just isn't about what you do. It's about who you surround yourself with. In episode 34, I met Jeff Massone, a leadership consultant I discovered I'd like to spend time with.

Jeff Massone  10:51
From my perspective, it is really get around the right people. Now explain what we explained at the beginning of the podcast, is getting around people of who've achieved where you want to go. And if you're starting to hear people in your workplace that are negative, you know, just politely, kind of distance yourself from them. You're not better than them. You just don't need to hear negative things. Leadership Development is not about being better than your co-worker, not about being better than your neighbor. It's about being the best version of yourself and adding value to other people.

Tim  11:25
Capacity isn't just a solo journey. It isn't a unilateral decision. It's shaped by people we surround ourselves with. When we're intentional about building positive, supportive relationships, we can create environments where growth becomes contagious. Finally, to bookend this episode, let's talk about how capacity means we can make space for those big, audacious goals. Tim Beissinger, a trailblazer and thru hiker, shared how prioritizing what matters allowed him and his partner Renee Miller to chase their dreams of hiking the Pacific Crest Trail and have many more adventures.

Tim Beissinger  11:59
So the way we've done it in the past is we make room for them, and I'll give an example. But if the big goal is big enough that it needs to push something else out of the way, we push it out of the way. The example is our first thru hike of the Pacific Crest Trail. Renee really wanted to do that trail, and I was a new professor, Renee was an engineer, and we felt like, I felt like there wasn't room to tackle that big project, that big goal of doing a PCT, it was something to put off until we retired. And Renee was persistent and said, No, we're only gonna get slower and weaker and like now's the right time to do a hike like this.

Tim  12:45
Tim and Renee's story is a reminder that you can't do this alone, that making space for what matters isn't just about time. It's about aligning your actions with your priorities and the people you care about. From Renee's reminder to prioritize yourself, to Richard's focus on evidence, to Anna's wisdom about identity, to Julie's quest for fulfillment and Jeff's emphasis on relationships, we've seen how capacity is a balance of internal clarity and external alignment. So here's my challenge for you, understand your current state. Where are you? Where are you over-committed? And where can you make space, create time for what matters, what obligations can you re evaluate to prioritize your goals and choose your relationships wisely. Look around who inspires you to grow and supports your capacity for success? It isn't just about doing more. It's about doing better. It's about living and leading and aligning with your values so that you can create the life that energizes you and sustains you.

Tim  13:47
Thank you for joining me on this retrospective. I hope you'll join us for the next new episode, and I hope you'll check out our other two retrospectives on Vision and Arriving. I'll see you. Hopefully with better capacity and more gas in that tank to lead. Take care.

Tim  14:07
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim, Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this special retrospective episode, Tim Sweet takes listeners on a journey through the most profound moments shared by past guests, all centered around the transformative power of "vision" in leadership. Through inspiring clips, guests reveal how they discovered their vision, how it shaped their leadership decisions, and why having a clear vision is vital for success in both business and life. Whether you're seeking inspiration or looking to craft a roadmap for the future, this episode is a compelling guide to creating clarity and purpose.

Episode Notes
In this special retrospective episode, Tim Sweet takes listeners on a journey through the most profound moments shared by past guests, all centered around the transformative power of "vision" in leadership. Through inspiring clips, guests reveal how they discovered their vision, how it shaped their leadership decisions, and why having a clear vision is vital for success in both business and life. Whether you're seeking inspiration or looking to craft a roadmap for the future, this episode is a compelling guide to creating clarity and purpose.

Tim Sweet delves into the importance of aligning it with one's values and experiences. He highlights insights from 11 guests, including Teresa Waddington, who bridges past and future through her vision; Ryan and Shane Pegg, who value innovation and helping others; and Debbie Potts, who found strength in a vision of a little red house in her dream country. Erin Ashbacher stresses the link between physical health and vision, while Erin Lydon draws parallels between poker and leadership. Tim ends the episode with an inspiring call to listeners to define their vision and share it boldly!


Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Transcript
Tim Sweet 00:00
Over 42 episodes I’ve have had the privilege of conversing with incredible guests. One thing stands out, vision is deeply personal. It’s shaped by our experiences, values and our willingness to embrace vulnerability. Vision isn’t just about what we see, but why we see it. In this episode, I’ll share insights from 11 remarkable guests who have illuminated what it means to craft, nurture and live your vision. Their stories showcase authenticity, courage, the joy of discovering brilliance and exploring unexpected places.

Tim Sweet 00:35
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to Episode 46 of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. Today we're diving deep into the concept of vision. It's more than just setting goals or dreaming big. It's about clarity and knowing where you're headed, and the courage to take steps to get there. And authenticity ensuring that your vision aligns with who you truly are. 

Tim Sweet 01:20
So let's begin. Vision begins with purpose. It's not about ambition for its own sake. It's about what truly matters to you. When I spoke with Teresa Waddington, an engineer and Vice President of Corporate Relations, in Episode 28, her story struck me. Teresa's vision bridges generations. It's shaped by her father's legacy and her aspirations for her daughter and the world she lives in. She beautifully illustrated how vision connects the past and the future. It's why I sought her out; because it's just such a compelling picture. Here she is.

Teresa Waddington 01:54
I'm on a mission to turn my dad's oil patch into my daughter's energy garden, and when I think about that future energy garden. I really do think it is a whole host of things. It's a whole host of technologies, and couplings of those technologies between kind of old and new that'll really drive us forward.

Tim Sweet 02:12
The idea of legacy can deepen and strengthen our vision. Teresa reminds us that its purpose that gives our vision its resilience. In episode 26, I spoke with Ryan and Shane Pegg. Ryan, a grade eight student and an inspiring entrepreneur, a triathlete and a wearable technology ambassador, had a keen eye for innovation and a desire to make an impact. His dad, Shane leads business incubators in their community, where he fosters creativity and collaboration. Their conversation covered the origins and purpose of how visions evolve and create value beyond ourselves. Here's Ryan.

Ryan Pegg 02:51
I feel like business is not only about the money side of things, like you're not only trying to make money, you're trying to build new things, you're trying to help people. And that really changed the way that I thought about it.

Tim Sweet 03:08
Ryan's clarity and focus stem from values that he's seen modeled and experience that he's been allowed to have. Shane shared how cultivating an others-first mentality has shaped not only his approach to business, but also his family's outlook on life.

Shane Pegg 03:25
It's encouraging, you know, you try to model a kind of an attitude of generosity and compassion thinking of others and others-first mentality. So that's kind of big part of life here. It's what about others kind of take your focus off of yourself, and so the kids are all great at doing that, and yeah, it's encouraging, and that's certainly a life lesson that we find later in life that's amazing at how money can follow when you're not focused on it, but you're focused on doing good or doing something that you really enjoy doing, and you do it really well, and the money will follow if it's meant to be.

Tim Sweet 03:57
As I reflect on this delightful conversation with the Peggs, it became clear that a really powerful vision transcends personal achievement. It is truly about creating something larger than ourselves, something meaningful and something that will leave that lasting impact. Having a vision is one thing, sharing it with others is another, and this is where clarity and confidence come into play. In episode 13, I was joined by Melanie Potro, an image consultant specializing in personal branding, she highlighted how our vision for the future is intertwined with the vision we have for ourselves in the future. This influences how we present ourselves and therefore can shape how we're perceived by others and how we can forward ourselves in life. First impressions often pave the way for new opportunities that will allow us to fulfill the vision we've got in front of us.

Melanie Potro 04:51
If you want to inspire other people and want to make sure that they feel that you're trustworthy, competent and so on, and you feel that we don't carry that across at the moment, then you need to look at your appearance, because that's the first thing they see. So that can really be the entrance ticket, the ticket to open the doors for the next step in your career, or to get a big client on board, or to make a big sale.

Tim Sweet 05:17
Melanie's insights inspired me. I hadn't considered that we can make ourselves a visual representation of where we plan to go. Our presentation reflects our confidence and our values and reinforces our undermining mission and where we're going in life. Likewise, Elayna Snyder, a creativity coach from Episode 25, took this idea further. She challenges her clients and our listeners to align their work with their unique identity and to use that alignment to push boundaries beyond what most people would think is possible.

Elayna Snyder 05:54
What we're really looking at is this main question around, how do I powerfully articulate what I do to create more of my best clients at the fees that I desire? And there's another question that comes on the back of that, too. And that question is, how do I integrate more of myself into my work? What's that next big idea? Maybe it's a new offering, a book, or even the creation of a movement.

Tim Sweet 06:19
This is an important reminder that a vision isn't static. It evolves as we grow. It gives us a new launch point to push even further. In fact, a vision usually is something we simply haven't achieved yet. The question isn't just what's my vision, but how is this a much more intense version of who I am? Obviously, vision isn't just about the immediate future, it's about the bigger picture. In episode 20, Debbie Potts, an educational economist, HR and productivity expert, shared a harrowing tale of her personal battle with illness through her struggle, my friend Debbie found an anchor, a vivid, unwavering vision of a red house in the forest that gave her strength and focus to survive and become an advocate for others. Here's Debbie. 

Tim Sweet 07:08
What did the Red House represent to you?

Debbie Potts 07:10
Oh my gosh. It represented freedom. It represented achievements. It represented living life on my terms, and obviously I love nature, as you do, and it just represented, you know, being able to be close to nature. And, you know, completely do a 180 turn around of my life. You know, I lived in a big city, London, full of people, full of traffic, full of everything. And I've now completely reversed that.

Tim Sweet 07:43
Debbie's story revolved around this idea of a true north giving us direction and focus in life during our most challenging moments. It's a compass that helps us define a path to those spaces in the world where we can truly thrive. Obviously, our vision is about how we care for ourselves now so that we can experience what's next. In episode 29 Erin Ashbacher, a leadership fitness coach and member of my team, spoke about the intersection between physical health and vision. She highlighted how neglecting our well being can become a barrier to fulfilling those goals in the future. In fact, it can completely derail where we think we're gonna be.

Erin Ashbacher 08:22
There's definitely been a lot of people who think that being busy is really the gold standard and making sure that we do it all, and it's hard when you're working in cardiac rehab, and you see people that have all of a sudden just been stopped in their tracks. And it made me really realize that preventative medicine, preventative wellness, is where we want to be. Some of my clients that have reached retirement, and they've had a really successful career, and now that they're retired, they're like, oh, now I'm going to take care of my health, but maybe they have an ailment that has been kind of creeping around on them, and so they just feel like they're starting at a really deep bottom, like, oh man, if I would have just started going to the gym or being a little bit more active in my 40s or my 50s, now that I'm in my 60s, I wouldn't have to deal with this big mountain, right? And it can be a bit discouraging to people when they kind of thought that their retirement was going to be one way, and their health and physical limitations are creating some a different story for them, right? So, yeah, let's take care of it today. 

Tim Sweet 09:27
Those insights are both sobering and inspiring, challenging us to think if we are caving to short term comfort rather than investing in our future selves to achieve a vision, we need to be physically, mentally and emotionally prepared to enjoy the journey. This podcast is about leadership, and therefore it's about high achievers. But vision isn't about perfection. It's about showing up even when things are uncertain. In episode 24, Erin Lydon, founder of Poker Power, drew a fascinating parallel between poker and leadership. She explained how leaning in to take calculated risks, even when you don't have perfect information, even when you are out of position and maybe even at a disadvantage, is a skill that's applicable both at the poker table and in life.

Erin Lydon 10:13
So often at a poker table, nobody has a made hand, you know, and so it really is going to come down to the person who's going to play their chips most aggressively and get the other players to fold, that person's going to win the hand. That is something you have to practice, shoving your chips all in when you have imperfect information, you don't know the cards still to come, and you certainly don't know what the other players have. That's a learned skill, because it's scary.

Tim Sweet 10:40
like poker, a vision requires courage, not the absence of fear, but the willingness to act regardless of what hand you're dealt. Reflecting on these stories, I'm struck by how authenticity and trust in ourselves are intertwined with vision. In my conversation with Hanne Ballhausen, a director and diabetes advocate, I was deeply moved by her openness about putting a difficult history in its place. Hannah's honesty about her journey through a dark emotional forest showed immense courage. We can't show the whole episode here, but I would encourage you to listen to it for now. Just take this little snippet.

Hanne Ballhausen 11:20
Trust your gut feeling. It's there for a reason. Tap into your superpower that are your feelings, and just join me in to give into all of your muchness of who you are. You're beautiful.

Tim Sweet 11:36
Right before Hannah's episode, I met with Greta Ehlers, a med tech professional and diabetes technology advocate who shared how belief in your vision can inspire others. In episode 22 she highlighted how passion and conviction drive leadership forward, and there was a great moment when she realized the leadership torque that that had given her. Again, I encourage you to listen to this whole episode, but for right now, here's just a few words.

Greta Ehlers 12:04
Leadership can be finding something you really believe in and driving it forward. And if it is something you believe in and you drive it forward, then others will follow.

Tim Sweet 12:14
Hanne and Greta demonstrate how authenticity makes the vision and the person magnetic. People are drawn to sincerity and passion. It inspires them to take risks and pursue their own adventures. And on that note, in Episode 42 Renee Miller, an engineer and avid hiker who knows a little something about carving her own path, described how stepping away from societal expectations can lead you to unexpected growth. Here's Renee.

Renee Miller 12:45
You get so caught up into your daily lives and the tasks that you know, you go to work and have to get all these tasks done and come home and have responsibilities at home, but yeah, you kind of forget about yourself. And you know, what about that professional engineering license that would be really good for my career? Oh, I don't have time for that because I'm busy working and, yeah, just talking with people and reminding them to prioritize theirselves and their resumes, and it'll probably be good for their company as well.

Tim Sweet 13:21
Rene's story, which was shared with her partner, Tim, showed how this vision of adventure often emerges when we step outside our comfort zones, when we refuse to be defined, when we take risks, when we trust that life will provide and when we embrace what's over that next hill. Well, that's it. And I hope in this episode, with all the different facets we've explored around the concept of a vision, you've found some inspiration that you can use to meditate on your own. It's not about predicting the future, it's about creating it. Because life is a creative process, and our level of creativity is parallel with our willingness to dream boldly, express ourselves authentically and take courageous action. So here's my challenge to you, define a vision that resonates with your deepest values, share it boldly, let your uniqueness shine through in every detail and when needed, challenge that status quo and step courageously into the unknown. Take that first step today, write down a few words craft that future that only you can imagine. Remember, the world needs leaders. The world needs you. The world needs your vision, your passion and your unique perspective.

Tim Sweet 14:40
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading you.

Episode Summary: In this special retrospective episode, Tim Sweet revisits past guests' most profound moments to explore the idea of “arriving” — that deep sense of alignment when purpose, values, and actions converge. Through compelling anecdotes from leaders across diverse fields, this episode sheds light on how moments of arrival are not endpoints but significant milestones that shape our journey. From navigating authenticity to redefining success, Tim unpacks how leaders grow into their roles and discover their impact.

Episode Notes
In this special retrospective episode, Tim Sweet revisits past guests' most profound moments to explore the idea of “arriving” — that deep sense of alignment when purpose, values, and actions converge. Through compelling anecdotes from leaders across diverse fields, this episode sheds light on how moments of arrival are not endpoints but significant milestones that shape our journey. From navigating authenticity to redefining success, Tim unpacks how leaders grow into their roles and discover their impact.

Listeners will hear insights on combating imposter syndrome, fostering self-trust, and staying true to personal values. This episode celebrates growth, resilience, and purpose by featuring wisdom from figures like Tracy Borreson on avoiding burnout, Tim Beissinger on non-traditional career paths, and Aaron McConnell on leading through challenges. Tune in to learn why arrival is not just a destination but an evolving state of being.

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Transcript
Tim 00:00
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 45 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim 00:31
Today's episode is a little bit different. It's a reflective one. Over the past 42 episodes, we've been exploring leadership growth, transformation with some incredible guests, but one theme has stood out across many of these conversations, and that's the theme I want to bring you today. Today is all about arriving. So, for this episode, I'm diving back into some of our favourite guest contributions. You'll hear short quotes; you'll hear more in-depth stories and anecdotes. Each will add to our understanding of what it means to arrive. When I say, arrive, what I mean is that moment that you know you're enough, that moment that you know you are exactly where you belong. You are fulfilling a purpose. It's a special thing, and when it happens, you know it. But what brings it about? Is it an age or experience thing? Is it a moment? Is it a milestone or maybe just a feeling that we stumble upon when we least expect it? Let's start with the basics. What does it mean to arrive? In episode five, one of my good friends and guests, Paul Farmer, a leadership coach in Australia who specializes in guiding others toward alignment and purpose, captured it so well-

Paul Famer 01:50
Depending on the way that the conversations happen with the owners, then choosing to bring that feeling into the business allows the business to grow in a deliberate way, whereby the business feels good for all of those that are involved in it.

Tim 02:08
That's it, right? It's the feeling of alignment when your actions and your purpose, and your values all click. It's not always about what you accomplish, but how it feels when you're in sync with yourself and when you're in sync with yourself, you can be in sync with others. I remember a moment in my own journey when this clicked. Early in my career, I leaned on quotes and research and experts to validate my own ideas, but a mentor told me, You're making great points, but you're not willing to own them. It stung, but it planted a seed, and a few months later, I stood up in a high-stakes meeting and delivered my perspective without quoting anyone else. And in that moment, standing on my own two feet, facing senior executives, I knew I had arrived, not because of what I had said, but because I knew I belonged at the table. To the newer leaders out there, I know how hard it can be to wait for this to happen. You spend your days dealing with imposter syndrome. You spend your days wanting to know why you're not being accepted, wrestling with feelings that you might not be good enough. You're looking ahead and wondering, When am I going to start to feel confident? When am I going to feel like I am where I belong? Here's the thing: arrival isn't something you can rush. It's not something you can force. It's something that you literally have to grow into. It's not based on some predetermined plan, and most importantly, it's not someone else's plan. My good friend, Tracy Borreson, who helps entrepreneurs and business owners really figure out how they belong, talked about avoiding burnout and how to discover authenticity. And she had this to say–

Tracy Borreson 03:53
I think there's many places in the world where authenticity is a buzzword, but we don't really know what that means, and if we don't know what it means for us, then things can't be authentic. And so one of my big goals is to try and create some more awareness of what authenticity actually is, instead of what people want to tell us it should look like, and create our experience, whether that is a career experience, a home experience, a community experience, a life experience that is aligned with the things that we want to do, that we can uniquely contribute, instead of what people tell us we should. And if you've listened to Tim's show, I've heard, I know you've all heard his opinion on shoulds, so that's probably why we hang out.

Tim 04:39
If you're chasing someone else's version of success, you'll never feel aligned. In episode 42, Tim Beissinger, one half of that dynamic duo, the ThruHikers, who's a professor and a quantitative geneticist, spoke about risking a non-traditional career path.

Tim Beissinger 04:57
I think people have a fear of getting off of that PhD, postdoc, professor path because all of the examples they look to are doing exactly that, and it's compelling to want to mimic the path that's worked for others, but everybody's individual and it can be more powerful to follow the path that makes sense for yourself/

Tim 05:20
if we can connect with things we're passionate about, we can start to see the impact we want to have on the world, and that's when everything starts to come into focus. You don't have to follow the same road as everyone else. Your journey will look different, and that's a good thing. So take a breath, trust the process. You're not behind. You're just on your own path. For those of us further along who've had this sense of validation, we realize that these arrivals don't always happen when we reach some milestone or event or achievement. It's often found in small moments when you show up fully, even on the hardest days, it's the journey up the mountain that shapes us more than our time at the summit. Dave Sweet, yeah, my cousin is a bit of a legend in the policing community in Canada and now around North America. He was a top homicide detective here in our city, and he's one of these guys that is constantly on true crime shows. His work has given him a unique perspective, he now acts as an expert witness, consultant and author who speaks about empathy and leadership under pressure. On one of his visits to the podcast, he shared this powerful reflection about how he found his calling and when he realized it was more than just solving crimes. It was being present for others.

Dave Sweet 06:41
The essence of somebody or the what your mantra is going to be. So first of all, I'll always consider myself a servant to the community, you know, first and foremost, and secondly, even on the worst days with some of the worst people, if you can remember to love people, it goes a long ways to being able to ultimately accomplish whatever you're sort of said, you know, to do that particular day. And it doesn't matter who it is, everyone has a story, the uniqueness of the world that I'm in, the world of murder and stuff, we would all think, Oh, well, you know, I would never be in that situation. This could never, ever happen to me. But the truth of it is, is that the majority of people that we investigate had no idea that morning they woke up that they were about to take a life that day, and the victim had no idea that they're about to lose their life.

Tim 07:31
Even when things are tough, there's something grounding about staying connected to your purpose and values. That's where arrival moments happen, and sometimes it's a personal transformation. Debbie Potts, a former teammate here at Sweet on Leadership, who's also a Senior Educational Administrator, reshaped her entire life to reflect her passions and the connections she wanted to nature. 

Tim 07:57
What did the Red House represent to you?

Debbie Potts 07:58
Oh my gosh. It represented freedom. It represented achievements. It represented living life on my terms. And obviously, I love nature as you do. And it just represented, you know, being able to be close to nature. And, you know, completely do a 180 turnaround of my life. You know, I lived in a big city, London, full of people, full of traffic, full of everything, and I've now completely reversed that. 

Tim 08:32
Innovator Jagroop Chhina, a psychological content strategist, say that three times fast, shared this perspective on transformation and its importance. 

​Tim 08:45
And blend those suckers as well so that maybe they become something brand new. 

Jagroop Chhina 08:47
Yeah, creating something brand new that didn't exist before in a new perspective that couldn't exist unless you lived it out the way that you lived it out. Right? For me, personally, I was always a pretty smart kid. And I had a tendency to just write the answers to whatever the problem or the thing in the classroom was, right? And where I always lost marks was in showing my work. That was my feedback over my entire, like, elementary to high school—'show your work.' And that's what creating content is actually about. It's about showing your work and documenting what it takes for us to succeed, right? Because that's how we actually learn our lessons—well, other people learn lessons from us is by showing them, 'Oh, this is what we go through on the day-to-day to build this out.

Tim 09:41
Even though we're focused on professional experiences, it's deeply personal. It's about those moments when you feel fully aligned with who you are and what you stand for. In an episode that we published our very first summer, George Trachilis shared a rich story about learning alongside a mentor.

George Trachilis 10:01
I brought Ritsuo Shingo, bless his heart; he's the late Shingo now. Shingo San, I brought him to Santorini, Greece, along with others, who were leaders in their industry, you know, there's business owners, there's, you know, others like Paul Akers, as an example, I brought him to Santorini, Greece. And we did training there. And we went through a Gemba Walk of Santo Wines, one of the biggest, the biggest winery in Santorini. And we're watching somebody work, we're watching somebody work. And what they're doing is they got a big light facing them, and they got, you know, like three bottles on each end. And they're looking, their eyes are focused on the bottle, and the light is behind it. So, you might be able to see something, you know, in the bottle. And so they're looking for spiders, because the bottle sometimes just, just over. So they do wash the bottles, but sometimes, you know, if there's like a big nest in there, you put that bottle aside and needs extra washing, but this is what this person's job function was. And Ritsuo wouldn't leave. And he's just observing. And I'm thinking, what's he, what could he possibly observe? Like the flow is such that there's such a queue in front of them, and the line is running, and there's no way he's gonna be out of work. Like, he's got a lot of work and the lines running, maybe he's not, maybe they're slack. I don't know if he's trying to calculate how much time he's actually working, versus how many bottles are moved. I don't know what he's doing. And it was so shocking. I said, what do you what are you doing? He says George San, watch his eyes. And I'm watching the worker's eyes. And as he lifts the bottles, his eyes are down. I'm going, oh, Shingo San; I never thought to watch the worker's eyes. Like pretend you’re in the worker's shoes, and think you're the worker, and your job is to do this function. And he says also, there's no standard. I said, what do you mean no standard? Sometimes he lifts up three bottles, and two, and sometimes two and two, sometimes three and three, there's no standard. And I'm going, Wow, he got all that from what I would just say that's just not important. 

Tim 12:10
Okay, one thing that's clear with many of our guests is that they've all had several moments of arrival. Once you've had that first moment of arrival, you're now free to help others find theirs, because, you know, it exists. Rita Ernst, an Organizational Psychologist and author who explores positivity and authenticity, put it this way–

Rita Ernst 12:32
You become this beacon of possibility for others. It will happen in that way but it does take a little bit of courage to be the one to stand, and I'm not talking about swallow it down false positivity. You know, when people are being disrespectful, when people are harassing others, you need to stand up and challenge that behaviour and stand for your values in that moment, and that is showing up positive. So it's not about just smoothing everything out, and like we were talking about, really, it's not about avoiding conflict at all, but it is about being true to who you need to be to have the workplace around you that you desire.

Tim 13:20
From a completely different perspective. Brent Yonk, an FBI section chief, emphasized that self-leadership was the foundation for guiding others. Here's his reflection.

Brent Yonk 13:31
There are people that are following you in the sense that they are watching you, they are taking cues from you. They may even be modelling some of their behaviours after what you're doing. You just may not be aware of that. But even if all of that were taken away, there is still one person that you can absolutely have follow you, and that's you. And that may sound really funny, but I have seen so many people that you can clearly see that they don't have that confidence in themselves to lead themselves effectively, and if you're already struggling to recognize yourself as your own leader. Like what hope do we have for you to be able to effectively lead others? So I think that developing that internal compass, that internal sense that the power to make decisions, the power to guide your fate as it were, is in your hands, right? You get to choose the actions that you're going to take. You get to choose whether or not you're going to try to broaden your awareness of what is influencing and impacting you, or you can just shut down, and you can just put your head down, and you can just focus on doing the easy thing, right? Follow the downward path. That choice is there. And when you recognize that I can lead, even if it's just myself, I can be a leader, you start to unlock that potential. You start to broaden your horizon. You start to open that aperture and see more possibility for yourself. And then that will continue to broaden, and you'll start to see people around you, and you'll start to recognize in them the skills, the abilities, the knowledge, the potential that's there. And then you can start to encourage them to join you on this journey. And now you're starting to see exponential impact happen from that. 

Tim 15:26
Here’s the thing about these moments of arrival. They don't happen all at once. They come in waves. And they don't happen all in the same place. They can happen in different areas of your life, different roles that you're fulfilling. Peter Root, an engineer and innovator working in wildfire robotics, reflected on his long journey.

Peter Root 15:48
Well, we're about to do a bunch of work with Alberta wildfire, and this means taking our team and our alpha prototype and eventually our next version out to real fires and interacting with them and the people there in a real way. And that, to me, is the most exciting part of running the business. This is where I wanted to be, like, you know, three years ago, but I'm finally here, and this is where I think the relationships get solidified. You know, we built the beginning up, but this is where we show them that, hey, we can come, we'll bring our thing, and then we'll improve it next time we're out here, and we're going to do that until it's something of such extreme value that you'll never kick us off again. Like, that's where we want to get to, and we're at the beginning stages of this, and we're also in an environment now where it's really fun, like there's nothing more fun to me than going out to a wild area with a bunch of hard-working people who have been continuing and interacting with the wildfire, which is such an extreme event and such a such an admirable profession, to be around those people and then to be able to bring them something new and work collectively to build it. What's more fun than that?

Tim 16:51
In another episode, Massimo Backus, an executive coach focused on self-trust and leadership, brought this to the table.

Massimo Backus 16:59
Yeah, yeah, one of those bedrock moments that you can always go back to remember what it was like when you truly trusted yourself. And you know, in the organizational context and leadership, you know landscape, we talk about trust all the time. Like leadership, how many books have been written about trust? How often in trust conversations, do we talk about the value of trusting ourselves? Or do we ask, How do I know when I trust myself? How do I know when I'm not trusting myself? What do I need in order to be able to trust myself? What's present when I trust myself least? These are questions that are very rarely asked in the broader conversation about trust. It is always about another person or the team, and that's important, absolutely. But I believe, and I found with the leaders that I've worked with throughout my career, that often, when trust is not present on a team, there is trust that is not present for each individual with themselves.

Tim 18:05
As we wrap up this retrospective, I want to finish on a couple of notes. Let's remember arrival isn't the end. It's a base camp, a place of safety along the journey. It's about trusting yourself, celebrating your growth and staying open to new possibilities. It's a revolution and an evolution. Here's a beautiful part of what Teresa Waddington brought in Episode 28. 

Teresa Waddington 18:29
We’re gonna need that revolution. We're also gonna need the evolution, and we're gonna need them to come together, to really step change us into what is completely new. So, when I think about like from a leadership perspective, it's being open to change. It's looking for the holes in your argument. And I'll give you an example on my own leadership journey, I've always tried to say, What am I blind to? So, what are people saying about me that I should know in order to decide if I'm going to change anything about what I do, how I show up, how I build my skill sets, how I build my allegiances. Because if I don't know, it might feel comfortable. It might feel like I'm not, you know, exposed to negative opinions of myself. But if I do know, then I can make a choice, and to be comfortable enough to ask for the bad feedback, it requires a measure of worthiness, or belief in your own worthiness. And when I think about the people that I mentor and support, the ones that I want to see continue to drive forward and change the world, it's reinforcing their own core worthiness, while at the same time gathering feedback.

Tim 19:39
I want to give the last word to Aaron McConnell, my lifelong friend and the CEO of TransRockies. I feel that this story of his is very genuine and very real, and something that many of us can relate to because it's in the middle of hard work that these moments happen. I'm going to let Aaron wrap us up with this last story. 

Tim 20:02
These are great events. You often talk about them as if they are summer camp for adults, right? And so people are out there, and they are having a blast, and they're doing what they love, and they're out in the sun, and they're out in nature, and they're sweating in all the right ways, and good food, good drink, good friends, campfires, the whole nine yards, and they must look at you and say, Wow. What a job to be able to do this for your entire career, right? 

Aaron McConnell 20:38
Well, there's definitely two sides to it. So we live double lives, I guess, and in this industry, because there is the times when we're in the field, basically, so when we're at an event. We're working on an event, we're with the athletes, and for the most part, that's really positive, you know, unless we're dealing with some kind of crisis that comes up, which does happen sometimes as well, but that's what we live for at events, or even when we're on a scouting trip or doing route planning or something out in the field, and that's where the glamorous side of the event promoter lifestyle is maybe a little bit true. I mean, yeah, sometimes we're trying to figure out where to put the porta potties or something. But you know, still, you know, being creative and hanging out with great people and really cool places.

Tim 21:31
Here's the thing about arriving: it's not the finish line; it's a feeling, a realization, and sometimes it's just a moment of clarity. It's never really over. And each time we reach a new understanding of ourselves, it allows us to open a door and then further explore our purpose and our impact until, eventually, we arrive again. As you reflect on your own journey, remember this. You're exactly where you need to be right now, whether you're at the start of your race, navigating switchbacks or midlife transitions or finding new ways to give back to others, know that each moment of arrival is a pivotal part of your story, and they're worth celebrating. Thank you for listening to this retrospective, and thank you for joining our community as always, keep leading, keep learning and keep arriving, and I'll see you in the next episode. 

​Tim 22:26
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this episode, host Tim Sweet and business stylist and image consultant Melanie Potro delve into the unique challenges women face in maintaining their careers during their 40s, 50s, and 60s. Noting that 66% of women cite family obligations as a reason for leaving the workforce and 40% believe menopause negatively impacts their careers, Melanie highlights the often-overlooked physical and emotional toll on women in these age groups. Through Tim’s coaching and Melanie’s style of guidance, women can gain the support and expertise they need to stay on top of their careers at any age.

Episode Notes
In this episode, host Tim Sweet and business stylist and image consultant Melanie Potro delve into the unique challenges women face in maintaining their careers during their 40s, 50s, and 60s. Noting that 66% of women cite family obligations as a reason for leaving the workforce and 40% believe menopause negatively impacts their careers, Melanie highlights the often-overlooked physical and emotional toll on women in these age groups. 

Tim and Melanie discuss the need for workplaces to foster open conversations and implement supportive policies, which can help reduce feelings of isolation and stress for affected women. The goal is to create a more compassionate workplace culture that enables women to thrive professionally through all life stages.

Melanie also shares how her tailored styling services help women navigate these challenges by making them feel confident and professional. By offering personalized wardrobe solutions, she alleviates the stress of finding suitable clothing that fits and feels great, empowering women to focus on their careers with a renewed sense of self-assurance. Listeners are encouraged to explore their own feelings and relationships towards their style, their clothes, and circumstances to pre-emptively avoid career interruptions. Through Tim’s coaching and Melanie’s style of guidance, women can gain the support and expertise they need to stay on top of their careers at any age. 

About Melanie Potro 
Melanie Potro is a Business Stylist who helps leaders develop a signature style that aligns with their personal brand and goals. With over 30 years of experience, she has worked with influential individuals in the UK and abroad, helping them improve their appearance and confidence as leaders.

Resources

• Harvey Nichols - Stylist Club
• Ganesha
• Sweet on Wardrobe - Free Guide

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Melanie Potro | MP Business Styling: 

• Website: mpbusinessstyling.com
• Instagram: mpbusinessstyling
• Linkedin: Melanie Potro
• Facebook: MPBusinessStyling
• Pinterest: melaniepotro

Transcript:
Melanie 00:00
It's a great chance to redefine who you are and how you want to feel about yourself, what kind of vibe you want to give to others. And I think a lot of women come out as well a lot more confident once they're through this. And there's also another thing that a lot of people don't talk about is that once the brain fog lifts. However, like some people are more affected than others, the brain builds a lot of new connections, and this is so interesting because you really see a lot of things clearer. You're probably a better strategic thinker, so you're also a great addition to any workforce, and you are more capable than ever before.

Tim 00:42
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 44 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Welcome back to Sweet on Leadership. Thank you very much for joining me today. I am very pleased to welcome a good friend for a return visit. This is Melanie Potro. Melanie, thanks again for being here. It's awesome. You are a style guru. You've got lots of clients that are in both the business and the political space, as well as other professions. We've been chatting. You've helped me in the past, which has just been so much fun and so enlightening. But what I want people to know most about you is that you're all about empowering women. So when we were talking earlier this month, we ran across a couple of issues that I thought were so important that we bring to the table. I want people to know all about you, because I'm excited to know you, and I just think that you know sky's the limit right now. So what have I missed? What would you like people to know about you before we get rolling here?

Melanie 02:09
As you said beforehand, I'm a personal stylist, but I really call myself a business stylist and image consultant, and I work to 95% with women, and I'm really passionate about getting more women into the boardroom, so. 

Tim 02:28
Well, you and me both, so I think that's a great place to start. And one of the subjects that we've been talking about the last couple of weeks was what doesn't just get them in the boardroom, but what can keep them in the boardroom? What doesn't just get them to the apex of their career, but what can keep them there? Because, as we talked about it, we both have this observation where at a certain age range there's this kind of disturbing trend that people have a career disruption. And so, you know, today we're going to come on, we're going to talk a little bit about that disruption. And some of the common things that can cause it, and what we can really do about it. And so thanks again for for being here.

Melanie 03:09
Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this as well.

Tim 03:14
Awesome. What are some of the things that brought this to your mind when we had that conversation a couple weeks back? What's been going on in your life that has brought this front and center?

Melanie 03:22
I have a lot of women who are in executive positions, and as you said, as well, at a certain time in your life, there are several factors that can hit you, such as illness, maybe the death of a loved one, parent, probably as well. A lot of us have experienced that by now, or some illness of their parents, and then also your own physical changes. And this is something we're going to talk about today, right? 

Tim 03:51
It’s not a small portion of the population that experiences this. It's literally every,

Melanie 03:57
Every woman, every woman.

Tim 04:01
Yeah, well, that's, that's okay. Fair enough. Fair challenge. 100%. Well, one of the the stats that I ran across out of a US Bureau of Labor and Statistics was that 66% of women who left the workforce, especially during these periods, cited that it was actually family reasons, family responsibilities and pressures that took them out of the workforce. And at the same time, New York Post reported that 40% of women believe that menopause will be or is a disadvantage at work, and they feel that it harms them in terms of their health, obviously, but also in terms of mental acuity, mobility, and a bunch of other reasons. So all of these things combine, at times, into this perfect storm, and can result in people leaving, resulting in attrition. So would those stats seem relevant to you? Seem accurate?

Melanie 05:00
Yeah, definitely. I think a lot of women see a very negative impact of menopause because they don't really get the space to maybe retreat when they're not feeling well or find a medical advice and help. This is happening. More and more people are talking about this. There's a lot more help out there now, especially here in the UK as well, the NHS has responded recently, offering HRT to all women who hit menopause, but also the fact that it affects women who are actually also younger than 45 sometimes, you know, a lot of women are not aware. And also like just really talking about it and making your environment aware of the effects that it has, so that people can be considerate in those situations where you feel uncomfortable because of some of the physical changes that affect you, such as getting hot or cold, or some people experience anxiety suddenly or brain fog. But I think there are also some positive things you can talk about, and we can talk about that later as well.

Tim 06:08
Sure, we're going to dive deep on on all of these before we do, though I shouldn't forget to ask you, from a an emotional perspective, why is it important that we tackle this today for you, what really has you in the ring here with me?

Melanie 06:25
Okay, so I think women around 45 to 55 they really should be at the top of their career, and they're going up the ladder, working hard to enter their executive positions, or the next step on their career ladder, or the boardroom, and then suddenly something like menopause or the death of your parent hits you and you feel all alone, and it rattles your confidence, and it really throws you and distorts your career path, or you might even, as you said, want to leave your career and I think I want to help women to stay on their path and not be distracted, and, you know, support them as best as I can. 

Tim 07:17
That is a real, as we said, it's a perfect storm that can hit people. And it really is a shame when we see it happen, and you've seen it happen quite a bit on your clients.

Melanie 07:28
Yes, definitely you have also illnesses coming up, something like cancer affecting women. And I had some very smart clients who have been really affected. And I just think like these are women, like they're so so capable and so good at what they're doing, and I want them to succeed, and I don't want their physical appearance or what they go through with menopause to affect them, and I know I'm in a position that I can help them in many ways. I'm a body expert. I've worked with clothes. I know how to make people feel comfortable in their own clothes, not only from their parents, but also from the wearer's perspective. And so I think that's where I come in, and I can do my bit to help them. Push them up. 

Tim 08:23
That’s important. Thanks very much for sharing. I mean, that's great. Okay, so if you were to say, when we think about this time that many women face, all women face, and that it can deplete their capacity to deal with other life events that can be equally as challenging, but then it's like insult added to injury. In a sense, we've talked about leaving the workforce or something like that, but either before that risk or after that risk. What are the risks that this can mean if we if we let this go unaddressed, if we fail to deal with it proactively.

Melanie 09:03
A lot of people can go into a depression or become extremely anxious. And yeah, I think the depression comes as well, like if you retreat, you know, like you avoid contact, you're not talking about it, you don't feel like yourself in your own skin anymore. And this is not a good place to be. So this can really hold you back. 

Tim 09:24
And that would be one more thing that would contribute to this, you know, this amplified or problem, you know, we're just layering on things. And it's, it's like, it's like it feeds itself, in a sense, the, you know, despair feeds despair. And so this is a real risk. 

Melanie 09:40
Like a downward spiral, really. 

Tim 09:43
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we see this like I remember a 2021 study, again, said that women are far more likely than men to experience burnout in that age range, the incident is almost 30% higher than men. There is real contributing factors that people have to deal with. And as you say, what can we do to shore each other up? So what do you hope for them? We're going to talk a little bit about the how, but you want them to avoid that depression. What else? What else would you like to help? 

Melanie 10:18
Well, I can help them simplify their lives. If someone is an expert and at the top of their career, they have a lot of things to deal with, and this is one part of the overload that I can take away. They can outsource to an expert who can deal with it, so they don't have to worry about what to wear, to find clothes that fit, to see how an outfit goes together and what makes them feel comfortable and what gives the right impression as well to others.

Tim 10:50
Yeah, tell me more about that when we think about this time of life, and I'll give you a little bit about what my experience has been with it. You know, I've got say over 70% of my clients are women, and been there when we're going through menopause and when we're going through other crises that they're going through. And there's that saying, you know, never waste a good crisis, because I've also seen that by restructuring and reframing and using this incredibly plastic state, this disruption as a chance to say, you know, the game has changed, or the rules have changed, but it's a chance to reset the board. It's a chance to say, you know, oh, who do I want to be as I go through the next half of my life. Who do I want to be as I, as I, as I, sort of progress forward. And so it's this, like, it's this transformational opportunity that, on one hand is is unavoidable, but the next hand, it's like, it's wonderful because you you can't avoid the shake up.

Melanie 11:57
It's a great chance, exactly, it's a great chance to redefine who you are and how you want to feel about yourself, what kind of vibe you want to give to others. And I think a lot of women come out as well a lot more confident once they're through this. And there's also another thing that a lot of people don't talk about is that once the brain fog lifts, however, like some people are more affected than others, the brain builds a lot of new connections. And this is so interesting because you really see a lot of things clearer. You're probably a better strategic thinker, so you're also a great addition to any workforce, and you are more capable than ever before. 

Tim 12:46
We see that now because we're seeing such great examples of very inspiring women in highly influential, powerful positions. So tell me about the role of of personal style, when, when we're facing this chance to reinvent ourselves. You know, we can work on what our career is doing. It can work on our approach to relationships. We can work on our psychological well being. Where does Style and Image and everything factor?

Melanie 13:17
So I think the trigger is often that a lot of women, I think at least 30 to 50% of women, struggle to find clothes that fit them when they go shopping. And this doesn't get better when you hit menopause, because we all know with time, our bodies change. But then there comes some more changes when we are around a certain age. Some people have that earlier than later, but our bodies change, and we have these images that we need to be perfect and look like 20 year old women, which doesn't really happen. Nobody does look like the women in in the in the movies or in advertising. Anyway, we're also individual. But then obviously, a lot of women like put on weight around the waist and so on. They have physical changes, and this needs to be addressed, because clothes don't fit anymore, and you have to address this as a matter of fact, normally.

Tim 14:19
After you and I talked last week, I had a long conversation with my wife, and I asked her, I said, I've always assumed that she liked shopping. She's a great shopper to go out, and it is a form of entertainment, I said, but do you enjoy shopping for yourself? And she's like I did, and now I don't. And she said, it's actually really tough because you see these styles that you want to wear, but they're all designed around a certain age and a certain and fairly Junior and at a certain size, which is fairly slight. And clothes in general are not constructed for women once they do go through a size change. 

Melanie 15:01
Exactly. This is a big problem.

Tim 15:04
Yeah, it's not front of the rack. And so she says, you spend a lot of time in the store feeling terrible because you you think something's cute on the rack. You bring it down, you try it on, and you end up feeling terrible about yourself. 

Melanie 15:18
Yeah, and you feel inadequate. You think you blame yourself for this, not the clothing. So that is also something that is experienced very often, isn't it? Like you think, like, oh, there's something wrong with my body. No, the clothes are cut in the wrong way. 

Tim 15:33
And when we think about trying to accomplish anything, whether it's in your job or it's in your home life, I mean, if you're already feeling at risk, and then you so let's say we want to go do something. We want to address your style or your wardrobe or something, and it's a terrible experience. If you're already facing an energy depletion because you're going through a hormonal change, or you're dealing with some emotional things or some illness, and then you got to go and feel crappy about yourself on top of all of that? Well, it's like, it's just, you know, more drains on the battery. And so from Jen's point, she was just like, oh, well, the other thing she said is that it doesn't just happen in the store, because then she makes choices and she comes home and she may never wear something. Do you ever see something like that happen?

Melanie 16:19
Yes, I mean, we've all been there. We go to a store, and then the sales assistant tells us, Oh, you look wonderful, and you look great, and this looks amazing. And you buy it because you feel good about yourself. You think, like, I have this really nice piece, and I look amazing. And then you put it on when you're at home, you think, like, oh, right, this doesn't really look as good as I thought. It doesn't really work with the other pieces that I have in my wardrobe. These are all considerations. This is something I'm never going to wear again, and it's just not right. So you want to, like, avoid these situations. And it's really easy to get there, because sometimes sales assistants are so nice, and you feel almost obliged to maybe at some point give in after you tried on the third piece and we don't feel right.

Tim 17:07
Well, I feel not just feel, not just feel emotionally, Jen, Jen had also said to me that, you know, often you want to wear something because it's cute, and so you make it work in the store. And she says, no end of mutual experience among her and her friends of where they they don't feel good by the end of the day because a piece of clothing is too tight, or it's too constricting in one part of it's just uncomfortable. She puts up with it, but then actually feels quite terrible at the end of the day, like, physically, my stomach hurts, or my, you know, whatever it's, it's, it wasn't a great choice. Putting yourself in a physical in physical discomfort, to try to fill some sort of emotional need or or gap. What would you suggest then? What's, what's some of the things that you teach people to build confidence and build a wardrobe that works?

Melanie 18:16
There are obviously different levels. But when it comes to the clothes themselves, I have a tailoring background, and I still have also a team of people who can make clothes. So there are different avenues we go through. And I'm also a member of the Harvey Nichols - Stylist Styling Club, which is like a big department store. So normally we go and we make this a much more fun experience. So we pull the clothes before the client comes there, we have a big room and space to try and close and really see if they're fit, if they work well, if they feel comfortable. And I'm able then also to say and judge whether we can alter pieces to make them fit better, not only in making them tighter or shorten them, but really like adjusting them to their proportions, and that is something that you wouldn't normally be able to get that service to understand, really, how this can fit. And then also we can make clothes for our clients that fit their frame, their body shape 100% and I think that's something unique. And people underestimate how good it feels to have something that feels really like a second skin, because you don't really find something on the high street that fits you ever 100% because we're not a standard figure ever. 

Tim 19:36
Sounds good. So now I have this picture of you. Make sure I've got this right. So you you actually, you and your team would pre choose clothing for people, knowing what their sizes are, cutting down on the amount of choices so that they don't have to spend their time being disappointed and then delivering the, I guess, the hope or the potential. That, yeah, you know what? We're gonna buy it in this size so that we can tailor it down to your specific thing, so it fits perfect, and it's comfortable and it's functional and it's and it's all of these things. So that becomes a much more positive experience and much less onerous. And kind of sounds like, I kind of want to do it now. It kind of sounds like a day at the spa or something like it almost sounds you have a bridal couture line that you ran for years, and it sounds like what, as a man I would think of trying on wedding dresses, kind of thing, but repeated at the same sort of, is it same? Is the vibe the same?

Melanie 20:40
Yeah, the vibe is the same. So we do really half a day or most of the day out. So we start with some boutiques, then go to the department store, try on some things, and have a nice lunch. And make this a really fun, enjoyable experience, something that my clients can get excited about. And especially, for example, some people have maybe petite everything is always too long. And that is not just the trouser length, but maybe the sleeve lengths or the shoulders are always too long. And if you then get the opportunity to get something that's tailored to you, because my dressmaker comes, and all just the clothes that they really fit. They're almost like something that's made to measure, made to their frame. This is such a fun and empowering experience to have something that really fits you and feels like you, and something to be excited about. To wear clothes that really are aligned with you, that convey who you are, convey authority and confidence as well. But, yeah, it's something to be excited about and enjoy. 

Tim 21:49
If I'm going to be a proxy for for somebody listening, I might say, you know, suddenly this sounds really expensive. Mel, like, this sounds like, like, I gotta pay somebody to do this, I'm adding overhead onto my clothing purchases. Is that? How people should think about it?

Melanie 22:07
It's a really good investment, because if you're at that executive level, you want to avoid buying clothes that are not right, as you said, even about your wife, you end up buying something that you're not going to wear. So you avoid all these clothing choices that are not going to serve you in any way, that drag you down, that are wrong, that you can't return, and instead, you really narrow it down to the clothes that you will wear that fit you and make you feel good. And this is also emotional baggage that you reduce, and also the overload choosing in the morning, oh what am I going to wear, how I'm going to look, and also giving a good impression, you know, it's going to help you to step up the career ladder, knowing that you look good and you feel good in your clothes. 

Tim 22:57
Yeah. So we're talking about everything from personal power to the amount of sleep you can get, because, you know, it's not going to take forever to to choose an outfit to I mean, and this is something that I've, I've seen time and time again, not just in my house, but in general, when we're doing collections for charity or anything like that, clothing that still has the tag on it that people bought and and bring it home and never wear it. You know, the Maria condo thing, where it's, it's, you know, clothing that just does not make you feel good. And there's got to be a so if we add up all of those direct and indirect costs, they add up pretty quick. Not only is the direct wasted purchases. But then we've got all the wasted time of getting ready in the morning. We've got all the wasted energy of feeling crappier than we should do. We cut down our career potential and pathways because we're we're not showing up being as confident or as mindful as we could be in the moment, we're not, perhaps as influential or as effective as we might want to be, because part of it is first impressions with others and all of those things. And then there's the wider issue that we're talking about right now, which is that energy can not only go towards our career, but to supplement the energy draws that illness might take or looking after parents or kids or or going through a hormonal change, or whatever divorce or whatever else we're dealing with, we haven't started the day on the back foot or moving ahead. I love that. I think that's great. Tell me a little bit about the first thing that you think a person should do. Now, they've hopefully, they've listened. They're now inspired to step it up a notch, even the men listening, which I sure hope there are. What's the first thing they can do, or what's the first few steps?

Melanie 24:52
Being really honest with yourself and admitting or like seeing that this needs to be addressed, or this is a, maybe a problem that's holding you back, whether that is something that you think you're looking dated and you're not in line with the times, or if comfortable, and yeah, it could be holding you really back. So I think being really honest with yourself and seeing that this needs to be addressed, and also maybe thinking about how you want to be perceived as a person and how you want to feel about yourself. And I think sometimes, especially women who are already in executive positions or on a higher position, they become a bit defensive when it goes, comes to clothing, they see it as a weakness that they can't deal with their own wardrobe, because they are high achievers. They're so on top of the game. Exactly. They should just like be able to address this as well and deal with it. But this is something that can easily outsource to an expert, and you can't be good at everything. So this is something that sometimes people have to address that are high achievers. And they think like, yeah, really, I should be able to deal with it. Because sometimes women are made to think it's all so easy. You know, look, I just put on this outfit, I just put on this blazer, I look good in it, and then people end up copying an influencer or someone like that, and are surprised when it doesn't work.

Tim 26:29
Yeah, it doesn't fit, or it doesn't doesn't fit physically, or doesn't fit emotionally, or doesn't fit personality wise, or the image. Yeah, I think also it's very interesting, because I've seen the work that you've done. And you know, although you focus on women in the workplace and you focus on executives and politicians, you also advise how their sports attire looks, how their casual attire looks. I love that post that you put out a few weeks ago on with jeans and a blazer and all these kind of things. And my wife and she was, like, awesome. And my, I mean, the other, the other reason that I've, I've leaned into this a little bit, as you know, is that my daughter is very now interested in moving into the fashion industry and whatnot. But even picking out holiday wear and swimsuits, that can all be something that you lean into. Because as I you know, as I help teams and leaders lean into their strengths and be fluent in their weaknesses, we also know that not everybody can sing a tune and not everybody can cook with balance and do well, yeah, I mean, but everybody has strengths and everybody has weaknesses and and for some people, they're they just don't have an eye necessarily for fashion. They may not actually understand how they come across. And so having an extra set of eyes can be really helpful, and it can I imagine even like packing for a vacation, and knowing that you're happy with everything that's in your limited wardrobe is just such an empowering thing. And I mean, and I don't think it's just for women, as you say, you got 5% of your clientele are men, and I've been through this experience with you, albeit in a remote way, but it was enlightening, like I never had any idea about..

Melanie 28:18
Finding your  patterns.

Tim 28:20
Contrast and patterns, yeah I mean, it just, it's honestly guided so much of what I've now chosen to invest in, right? So,

Melanie 28:29
Like a filter, I think, as well, like, because once you understand the colors and the contrast and the patterns that work for you, then you can just go into a shop and say, I can cut out all the noise.

Tim 28:45
Exactly for sure. Okay,awesome on that point, though. Let me just ask you one, one thing here before we because I think you've done a great job, both of us. We want to be there for women in these positions as they're going through. I don't want to have anybody who's high potential struggle to the point where they leave behind something they really want to do because of other circumstances. Yes, change happens, and yes, it might need to happen, but they shouldn't change under duress or, you know, because because of something that's preventable, especially if it's causing their own brain to lie at them in their own voice, then that's something that I don't want to I don't want to be party to. Want to stand up against. 

Melanie 29:25
Yes, and you work with a lot of women, don't you? So you work with a lot of executive leaders.

Tim 29:30
Yeah. But for the other for the men listening here, what would be your hope for the men?

Melanie 29:35
So with regards to women hitting menopause, I really like them to be a lot more open about the effects that it can have, how it can really affect their mothers, their wives, their sisters, their work colleagues, and give them some space to talk about it without judgment. Maybe read up about. It, and also look into their company culture, if they can improve access to things that would make life easier for women. So I think it's just being open about it and ready to talk about it, and not sidelining women who are affected by it so and to take it seriously, as you said, it's a, it's a chemical thing that is happening to us and and sometimes I've seen women who have been really at the pinnacle of the career, very confident, and they've just suddenly been hit by anxiety, things like that out of nowhere. And these are things that can happen, and so they need to be addressed, but also that there has an understanding from the other side that this can happen. It doesn't have to happen. And I think there's a lot more help now out there. And, you know, women go through it and come out stronger, but so that there's a little bit of an academic understanding as well what's really happening there a scientific one.

Tim 31:03
You know, as men, we have a real responsibility to not stigmatize things and to normalize the conversation and and to not enter these things with misconceptions about what it means or it doesn't mean, but it is a perspective and an experience we will never have, and so not in the same way. I mean, there are some changes for sure that men go through, so then we have to educate ourselves, and we have to lead with empathy. Okay, we didn't get to a couple of things early on in the conversation. So first of all, I want to thank you for taking us through that journey, and we're going to just begin to wrap up here. So I've got a couple of of things. One thing that we do as a tradition here is that our previous guest had lobbed a question. This was from Seeham Cyrene. Seeham Cyrene wanted me to ask the next guest…

Sehaam 31:59
Who or what anchors you when you're having a tough time, and if they feel comfortable sharing how that will be wonderful. It could be a person, it could be a writer. It could be an actor, depending on what your profession is, right? It might be someone in your industry. Might be a family member, someone living, or they might be a historical someone who's just influenced you so much that you kind of go back to again and again.

Melanie 32:28
Okay, so I think I really have family and friends who I would talk to when I hit a really tough time, especially the best friends to have a good chat about things. And

Tim 32:42
Would it be a best friend that you talk to? 

Melanie 32:46
Yeah, definitely. Best friend I talk to and lean into. It depends on what experience is it. So who I'm gonna speak then to all my sister as well, who's just been visiting me, and I also lean into myself. And whilst I'm not religious person, I as a half Indian person I have some spirituality. I used to do Indian dance as well, and for me, Ganesha is the remover of obstacles. And so I do a little prayer dance, prayer with Ganesha in mind. 

Melanie 33:29
Wow, I'm learning all sorts of things. What a great question from Seeham. I love that. Thank you so much, man. We should really ask this question more from people. Okay, now there's a flip side. What is a question you would want to lob at our next guest. 

Melanie 33:44
What was the trigger for that person that made him or her go onto that path? 

Tim 33:55
Okay, so what was the trigger that made them choose their career path?

Melanie 33:58
Yeah, their career path, yeah.

Tim 34:00
Okay, yeah, got it. I will ask, okay, that's excellent. How can people get in touch with you?

Melanie 34:08
So they can connect with me on LinkedIn. But I'm also really excited because I have a very special free executive style guide that they can download here. Sweet on Wardrobe. 

Tim 34:21
What, you mean you designed it for our listeners. 

Melanie 34:23
Yes.

Tim 34:24
Okay, right on excellent. 

Melanie 34:25
And you will have the link in the shownotes.

Tim 34:30
I sure can, yeah, I will. I will post the link in the shownotes.

Melanie 34:33
Also, they can also book a free call just to find out maybe if my service is for them, either virtually or in person. And they can do this also through the link or through my LinkedIn profile. I also have a website which is MPbusinessstyling.com and they can get in touch with me there.

Tim 34:53
We'll put all of those links in the show notes. So.

Melanie 34:55
Excellent. Thank you. 

Tim 34:57
Hey, no, that's great. Hey, that's really something that you put that together for us. I appreciate it.

Melanie 35:03
Well, I'm very pleased to be here. 

Tim 35:05
No, I'm just, excellent. Well, I'm excited for all of those things that are happening. I'm sure there's lots we can look forward to, and I know that you've got good things on the go for next year.

Melanie 35:17
Yes, very exciting. Some training courses as well for companies. And, yeah, there's a lot coming up.

Tim 35:26
I'll put your Instagram in because even I love watching what's coming through, and I know that my my wife and and other women that are really important in my life are are following you as well. So we'll, we'll put those touch points in because you're producing some really, really informative stuff that's immediately helpful. 

Melanie 35:46
Amazing. Thank you.

Tim 35:47
Wow. Mel, thank you so much for spending this time with me. It was a really interesting idea that you had for for us approaching this issue, and I'm so glad that we connected on it. And I just, I'm really interested in hearing what people's reactions are going to be.

Melanie 36:05
Yeah, I'm interested as well. And thank you so much for inviting me to talk about this, also as a man and husband and son of a mum who's gone through this, probably at some point, and also having so many clients who are going through these similar changes.

Tim 36:24
It’s as normal as normal can be. And we need to treat it that way. 

Melanie 36:30
Exactly.

Tim 36:31
So hey, Big hugs from the side of the pond. Can't wait till we can get over to London and see you in person sometime soon.

Melanie 36:35
Yeah, definitely, that would be awesome. Okay.

Tim 36:38
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts, this helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: Imagine a world where leaders don’t just direct but inspire—where every conversation sparks growth and trust. In this episode, Tim and Sehaam explore how modern leaders can use coaching skills to foster collaboration, innovation, and stronger team connections. Sehaam discusses the rise of younger leaders eager to embrace a different model of leadership—one that prioritizes understanding individual team members, building mutual trust, and supporting personal growth over command and control.

Episode Notes
Imagine a world where leaders don’t just direct but inspire—where every conversation sparks growth and trust. In this episode, Tim and Sehaam explore how modern leaders can use coaching skills to foster collaboration, innovation, and stronger team connections. Sehaam discusses the rise of younger leaders eager to embrace a different model of leadership—one that prioritizes understanding individual team members, building mutual trust, and supporting personal growth over command and control.
She illustrates through examples and practical advice how a coach-leader mindset can reshape organizations by encouraging leaders to embrace listening, curiosity, and patience. This dynamic approach, she argues, not only inspires teams but also provides leaders with greater fulfillment and strategic focus.
Sehaam also shares insights from her book, The Better Conversations Rulebook, which provides leaders with actionable questions and phrases for fostering more profound, more effective communication. Tim and Sehaam delve into the nuances of building coaching skills, the art of asking the right questions, and the powerful impact of trust-building on team morale and productivity.

About Sehaam Cyrene
Sehaam Cyrene is an Executive Leadership & Strategy Coach to CEOs and Executive/Senior Leadership Teams. She is the Founder of Coach/Lead Ltd. and creator of the CPD Certified online course Leaders Who Coach(tm). The Better Conversations Rulebook is based on some of the skills and competencies taught to leaders in organizations across many functions and industries.

Sehaam's deep knowledge of what keeps leaders awake at night and passion for leaders to find joy in their work make this Rulebook an immensely easy-to-read and instantly applicable conversation resource that every leader should have at their fingertips.

A seasoned business leader, entrepreneur and live speaker, Sehaam is on a mission to make coach-leadership a global standard.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Gallup
• The Better Conversations Rulebook — Questions & Phrases Practised Daily by Leaders Who Coach

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Sehaam Cyrene | The Coach/Lead Coach: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Sehaam Cyrene
• YouTube: SehaamCyrene
• X: SehaamCyrene
• Instagram: @SehaamCyrene

Transcript:
Sehaam 00:01
What I love about this younger generation of leaders coming through is that they're really hungry for a collaborative style of leading. They're not accepting of what they've seen before. They know it can be better. They might not know what that better is, but they're really searching for it, and they're challenging organizations, and that is fertile ground for leaders having these coaching skills and modelling coach leadership because you are, you're modelling your team and your peers. Watch what other people are doing, and so it's just, how do you show up? That's what's exciting.

Tim 00:34
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 43 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim 01:08
Well, Hey everybody, welcome back to Sweet on Leadership. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us today. Thank you very much for taking the time to invest in yourself and broaden your horizons. And the person that's in front of me today and the person that you're listening to join me is a very dear friend, a colleague that we've been in each other's orbits since around 2016-2015. Sehaam is a leadership coach. She's an advisor. She's the founder of Coach Lead, which is a fantastic organization that's helping leaders and people that I'm very fond of on this side of the pond. But of course, Sehaam is in London, England. So, thank you very much for joining us today, Sehaam. It's so wonderful to spend a little more time with you.

Sehaam 01:49
I'm really excited to chat with you. Tim, it's been a while. 

Tim 01:53
Well, you and I are cut from the same cloth. We care about many of the same things. Some of my fondest professional activities have been co-writing articles with you. We've done series in the past. Some of the most meaningful pieces of writing that I've done have been in conjunction with you. And so, you know, I'm really excited to see what comes out of today as we record this conversation and and play with a few ideas. 

Sehaam 02:21
Definitely, I'm not sure we've got enough time, but we'll see what we can do in the next half hour or so, Tim.

Tim 02:27
There's always another time. There's never has to be just one, but before we keep going, though, what would you like people to know about you when they're envisioning who you are and what you do? 

Sehaam 02:40
Well, I'm super passionate about leaders using our coaching skills as coaches because we know how amazing that is for people, how it unlocks people and gets people unstuck. So my passion, all my work, is devoted to teaching leaders how to use coaching skills, and that might be learning to use a question. land a question, land a phrase, how to show up in a conversation all the way through to actually, really digging in and learning at depth the skills and techniques of coach leadership and the nuance within that. Because you're not a pure coach, you're a leader who uses coaching skills, so happy to share more about that a little later. So, I do that through my one-to-ones. I work with senior leadership teams. I have a program that I built during lockdown called Leaders Who Coach and I run cohorts and connected programs for organizations. Really about building that coaching culture, that coaching capability within teams and organizations. I love it.

Tim 03:47
And there's nothing more rewarding. I think of some of my longest-term clients, and it's funny how I have these, I like to say clients for life, the ones that it just never stops. I mean, I have coaches myself in various areas of work and life that I use and that continue to always offer me new perspective and ways to see myself and to get over some of the barriers that I think are insurmountable, but when they break it down, it's step by step, but It's wonderful to see your clients graduate into that, demonstrating the very skills that that we're helping them with, and really becoming that coach to others. Always found that such a gratifying experience. It doesn't stop. I mean, it's funny, in many cases, it makes them hungrier and hungrier to try new things, but that leader as coach, it's a term that you introduced me to, and it's something that's always stuck in my mind. And so, yeah, I'm happy that you're here and that people are going to get a chance to see this. On that note, we talk about the skills that a leader must develop in order to be an effective coach, and I know that is one thing we're going to be introducing a little bit later here. But before we do, our previous guests, Tim Bessinger and Renee Miller, were here, and when asked about our little tradition, about what question would you lob at the guest that is going to follow you? And here was the one they left for you. As we know, everyone finds themselves engaging in activities that are not always clearly helpful to who we want to be and where we want to go. And our conversation with Tim and Renee was really about amazing adventures and big choices that they had made. And Aaron, the previous guest, had said, you know, how do you take that one big thing off the shelf and dust it off and actually get it done?

Tim Beissinger Clip 5:47
If you have to do that, if you need to clear up room in your schedule, what is one thing that you're doing that you would or want to get out that you want to stop doing. We all have too many things to do and not enough time. So what would you cut? 

Tim 06:06
And it doesn't have to be something like stop tying your shoes, as he said, it doesn't have to necessarily be that specific, but would be the one thing that you, as a coach to others, so that people know we're human, would choose to cut to create more capacity for yourself.

Sehaam 06:23
Cleaning the house. Tim and Renee. Cleaning the house, right? Household chores are important, and there can be some sort of meditative element counter to doing those chores. But I think if it's to stop one thing in my life, it would be to hand that over to somebody else. If I could afford it, I would have someone cook me meals. Because as much as I love. I do love cooking. I absolutely don't mind house cleaning, but to me, that would be a luxury to have that side of things taken care of. As a mum of 20 plus years, that would be quite liberating to just not have that responsibility. And then hopefully come back to, maybe not the house cleaning, but come back to, you know, enjoying cooking food, because I have the time to really kind of indulge. But, yeah, that's probably two things, right? But we'll stick with house cleaning.

Tim 07:18
I love how you phrase that because it's not just what are you going to cut, but what's the thing that it makes space for? And why is that, you know, a net positive on your day or or in your year, right? And I think that's such an important thing that we do the math and we say, you know, what is this really worth? And it's funny, in that afford conversation, yes, it's a luxury for somebody to clean your house. You know, often it's funny. I like building things, but sometimes I do things myself. I build a fence when I should be hiring somebody to do it. Or sometimes they're faster than I am, they're better than I am, they're cheaper than I am. Like, just go and build a fence. Like, economically. It makes no sense for me to stress–

Sehaam 8:04
False economy, right? 

Tim 8:05
Yeah, false economy, 100%. Great answer. I'm gonna let you think about it. Towards the end of the show, I'm gonna ask you to lob one at our next guest. Okay, let's get into what we were talking about before we hit record here. You were sharing with me this idea that the new generation of leaders that are that are moving in, right? We have Gen Z and millennials coming in, and you and I have seen the rise of Gen Y, and we've seen now the tailing off of the boomers. Now, Gen X is slowly leaving the workforce, and we've done generational work, right? So we see this new generation of leaders with new pressures and new ideas and different experiences come into the workplace. You've got some fascinating insight into what this group is looking for. Can you share a little bit about that and kick us off?

Sehaam 8:54
Yeah, sure. So my observation is that it's nothing new, but leaders are getting younger, and I think there's a certain amount of a whole culture of startups and scale-ups that's really driven this and encouraged people at a younger age to start something or get involved early in a young organization, and inevitably, those leaders find themselves leading teams of people, having to make strategic decisions they've never encountered before. They're having to be aware of board meetings and governance and a whole bunch of things. How do you build a team? How do you scale? Very often, their own experience is either quite short or doesn't exist. They're absolutely doing it from the beginning for the first time. And also, I notice the number of direct reports that these people have is getting bigger, right? You know, it can very quickly mushroom from one or two people as your direct report to 10 or more, right? In a short space of time, because of the nature of the types of work that we're doing. Because most work is technology work, and so they come with a different expectation. They're very well educated about what good leadership is. This plethora of books, around all of that, I've added one myself to the piles of books. So they are educated, but they're not practiced. And I think this is where this sort of big gap is, and that's the bit that I'm excited by because I think they're challenging the norms and expectations of leadership. They're actually naming some stuff that I think in my generation certainly didn't question. You just joined the workforce; you didn't really ask questions. You did as you were told. Very much command and control. And I think these younger leaders, from young millennials through to Gen Z coming through, we have different desires, different ideas of what good looks like, a greater self-advocacy. It might not feel like that to them, but by comparison to our generation, definitely much better self-advocacy of this is, you know, this is what I expect. Why can't we have a culture like this? I'm expecting a leader or, you know, a manager who can grow me, so all of those make for a very exciting space. What comes next, right? 

Tim 11:34
For sure, it's funny that when I think back to early work with generation, we were working with Gen Y, and they were the first of the digital generations where we were, you know, just waiting for them to grow up enough where they would get it and they would stop caring about what they cared about. And that didn't happen. Instead, Gen X started to think like Gen Y, and now Gen and so I see this thing that even though I'm 50, I don't feel 50. I feel 26 in my head. And so myself and my clients, I see them struggling with many of the same things that for you, dear listener, just because we're talking about the younger generation if you're my age, my vintage, don't stop listening. We still care about these things, but we're approaching them from a position of change, changing over from what we knew, the command and control structures that we knew, they're being gestated in this, you know, they're bringing that language, often from their parents and often from media. They're entering the workforce or entering their leadership journey with these things being the reality, whereas we're catching up. And for us, it's often a change experience, but for them, it's a foundational thing. And so when you look at that, what are some of the keywords, what are some of the key topics that we have to be really aware of are at the forefront right now for all of us, and in particular, these new leaders. 

Sehaam 12: 57
I think there's a reality, isn't there, that work life, working in a team, looks a certain way, and there are expectations or an ideal of how a team should function, how your manager should manage you, how you as a manager should show up. Gosh, I so very often hear from managers that they really don't know what they're supposed to do in these growth meetings, so they end up reverting to them being very tactical. You know, how's your week going? What have you achieved? What are you working on next type meetings, rather than, what's your big aspiration? Where do you want to go and knowing how to get into it? Stay with it. Allow time for it to build from one conversation to the next. I often say to people, we ask too much of a single conversation, you can't cover everything, and you're not going to build trust in one conversation. You're not going to uncover someone's desires and aspirations, and passions in one conversation. So I think for all of us, it's just the realization that so much of our happiness at work hangs on the quality of our relationships, but the quality of our relationships depends on us being able to understand people, to be able to be in conversation with people, and actually know what's going on for that person, the stuff that they say, as well as the stuff they don't say and that maybe they conceal, and having the patience to and the skill to earn that permission to get to a deeper level with that individual in that conversation.

Tim 14:37
And even to handle that you know, Gallup put out some, and I quote these numbers quite often, but Gallup put out a study that said, you know, they figure that when we look at people's general makeup, about 10% of the population have the capacity to be what we would deem as modern leaders. And I think it's much lower than that. I think it's like 6% because I think a lot of that 10% never got the chance. Socio-economically, gender, race, just situation they were never afforded. The window never opened for them to be in that position professionally, but for the rest, the ability to get into that space, to have the capacity to care deeply about who a person is, and carry that with you as a leader, because you're now taking on their success on top of your own, which I think is the definition for me. You get yourself in the middle of them being as successful as they can. That requires a capacity to do that, and for some people, is exhausting. They cannot hold that with them. It's too burdensome. Doesn't make them bad people. You need to create those spaces. And I love when you say that, stick with it, have that conversation, and oh, boy, do we like to introduce tools and personality profiles that are some sort of substitution for getting to know people, versus doing the work and actually understanding who they are. And as you say, when you've got a team of one and two, it's important to do it, but maybe not overdo it. And when you have a team of 30, it's really hard to do it to any great extent. And so finding what your number is is really important too. Is it seven seems to be an off-quoted number? Is like seven is like a good quality number for direct reports. But can you build that capacity up, that vision of yourself, putting that on yourself, as your responsibility, as part of your not just about getting the tactical stuff done or focusing on that, because it's easy, but really being that glue that is a defining idea for leaders, isn’t it?

Sehaam 16:48
I very often say to leaders, you have two responsibilities. One is to be strategic, so that thinking time, the networking, the getting to know your peers, the being out there, and whatever your function requires. And the second one is growing the capability of your people. And if you're doing the coding, if you're doing the admin, if you're doing all of these things, you are not fulfilling your responsibility in that role. You're missing out on the opportunity to grow. You're missing out on the opportunity to feel rewarded. Because, as you say, seeing other people's success is hugely rewarding, seeing someone grow and do that, and you're missing out on being at the strategic decision-making table. If you're sitting in meetings and haven't got anything to contribute, then you've got to think about why. So, to Tim and Rene's question, what would you clear out the way it's the doing, and really look at what is your calendar filled with, and should you be in those meetings? And how do you extricate yourself? Who do you need to build up? Who do you need to grow so that they can own that part of it, which indeed is part of their job description, right? So that frees you up to be strategic. So, if your weekly calendar isn't focused on those two things, you need a really good, hard look at it to see what you could be doing better. 

Tim 18:16
It’s funny, because, as you see, especially when you see technical specialists, and we see this a lot in education, where we have people that are coming up, they're professors. I mean, they're academics, or they're scientists and engineers, or they are doctors and whatnot. They're coming up through being the key contributor, right? They're the expert. And then they move into leadership spheres, and their idea of what value they provide can still be so deeply rooted in being on the tools that it's very tough to give up that. And not only are you robbing yourself from being at those strategic meetings, but you could be robbing your reports of truly developing their own capabilities. And, you know, we talk about micromanagement. It's so funny, in many of my leadership meetings, micromanagement will come up as that thing that I need. I don't want to do, I don't want to be, and we treat it like it's this thing. Micromanagement, to me, is an indicator. It's a lack of trust. It's like, I don't trust it's going to be done as well as I could do it. Maybe you're not, and there's lots of reasons why it happens you haven't taken the time to learn, or you haven't let go. But there's a trust challenge, like let it go, let them manage it. Be less operational, less tactical. Get into the strategic. Give them room to make mistakes and figure out what you're going to do when it happens. But that micromanagement, to me, is always an indicator that there's a lack of trust, that there's a lack of relaxation and release, that this person can do the job, maybe not as well as me, but differently than me, you know.

Sehaam 19:54
And that's also a reflection of the leader's skills themselves. So one of the hardest things when I take leaders through leaders who coach, or a Leading Through Change program, and I'm teaching them coaching skills, and we do live practice on each other, and it's only when they're actually in that that they start to see, gosh, this is quite difficult. It's that tendency to want to give someone the answer to get to the solution as quickly as possible, right? And often, you know, yes, you're under pressure. And I would say in a crisis situation, absolutely, you need to be more directive, but you need to loop back with that person and then reconnect in some way. But generally speaking, because I'm the expert, because I have got all this knowledge and expertise and so on, I do know what the answer is, great. And there's a place for that towards the end of the conversation, that if you bring that in too soon, you are squashing that person's perhaps their interest. Maybe they actually walked into the room and had some ideas, but you never asked them. They didn't get a chance to share. You didn't get to have a chance where you could really challenge them to think bigger or to take an idea even further. You missed the opportunity to really understand how do they think? You know, what's their motivator? Where do they tend to get stuck? And how can you support them? So this desire, tell people you've got to sit on your hands and just, you know, use some other ways. And those ways can be as simple as a phrase like, Tell me more. What have you already thought about doing? What's causing you to feel stuck here? It's back to that. Allow time and stay with it for a little while to really, like, you know, find the evidence, go on an effort to kind of really explore and understand. How does this person think? What ideas do they have? Because that will mean that you can go on holiday, on vacation, and know that your team members have got everything covered, because you know how they think, then you know how they're going to resolve problems that come up. No one needs to ring you or message you or WhatsApp you or whatever you don't need that you can really have that time out so that desire to tell people what to do or to come up with a solution, give it to them, is actually to your words, denying them. It's robbing them of a chance to really express or explore or develop a stronger emotional attachment to the process, right or the outcome, because you know what, that's what's going to drive them us telling them what to do. It went, Yeah, okay, but you know that's not my context, and you didn't really understand it, and you didn't really ask me about it, so I'm just going to ignore you and go and do my own thing, and then we get those surprises, right? Well, things weren't done the way we wanted them. So.

Tim 23:00
If we put ourselves into the mind of that young leader who's maybe two, five years into this, and they're starting to extend trust, and then all of a sudden, it turns out that, oh, something wasn't going on. I mean, often, if you are that domineering type leader, if you come with all the answers, and you are the expert, you're intimidating, or they feel they have to surprise you. They feel they have to impress you because otherwise, they can't compete. And that's a real way to ostracize people, is to make them feel somehow less or that they can't be intellectual peers, or can't rise to the level of performance, it's unattainable, those surprises. And we talked a little bit about this off-air, so I think that's a great segue for us to take into this. Talk to me a little bit about the types of surprises that people suddenly have and how that plays on the mind of the leader, and how it could actually cause them to maybe regress and to become more than command and control or micromanaging leader if it's not properly addressed if people don't have the skill to deal with it. So tell me about those surprises.

Sehaam 24:12
Yeah, you hear it, don't you? You delegated something to somebody, and the work didn't come back to the quality, or it just didn't happen at all, or there was a key piece of information that you know you as a leader because as we go up through the layers, less and less information gets passed up, and because everyone is making a judgment and filtering that information based on what they think is most relevant. But if you don't have the trust, you are going to find that the surprises are where information is held back in a team that's trying to innovate, that's crucial that your team members are generous, and they can only be generous if there's a high level of trust, and there's a way of collaborating that really is very inviting. So people are going to hold that information back for lots and lots of reasons, right? So a good word is concealment, and concealment because it's not information that was omitted or forgotten, it's information that I'm not going to share with you because you might judge me. It might be politically, a really bad move for me to share something, and that might be about an event, an incident, a mistake, something that happened that actually, you don't want your boss to know about. Your team might mess up, someone might make a decision, someone in your team, if you've got a hierarchy, someone in your team might make a mistake, and you don't share that upwards because you're protecting a team member. You're protecting a decision that you made or the fact that you actually didn't have a conversation with your director report. And now this problem has surfaced again, and judgment might be in the form of I've had this incident a lot where someone they were trying to get their team member to produce a very simple document in PowerPoint, and they went through a couple of rounds of resetting a new deadline, and when they got to the bottom of it, that person didn't feel confident using PowerPoint, and it is so tiny, and for us, we can forget that maybe some people just don't have the confidence to use certain tools, and we assume that they've had the training, or they've used it somewhere else and they haven't, and that can create massive frustration, because if you're relying on it as a presentation to a regional team meeting, for example, and it doesn't show that looks poor on the team. So what are you going to do? You have a direct report who concealed the fact they don't know how to use PowerPoint, and you can't share that information at a regional team meeting because you're protecting that team member. But it's essential to some decision-making. It's essential to the intelligence that's being shared in the organization, right? And then there is active concealment. I don't want you to know this because it's not to my advantage that you know it. I'm going to keep it for myself. I want to be the person that is seen as holding that knowledge or having that influence. So we do it for lots of different reasons, and those are the kinds of surprises that we don't like. Those are the things that create friction in our day, right?

Tim 27:33
For sure, when we have people that aren't sharing, what impedes that willingness to expose oneself or to be open? That gotcha moment.

Sehaam 27:45
I think that we do a lot of self-judgment first of all, so if you are my manager and I come into the meeting, I may judge a certain piece of information as silly, not relevant, tiny, minor. But actually, it ends up being a massive blocker to us getting something done or starting a task, right? And you maybe gave me a task to do, but there's a sequence in there. I really have no idea, so I didn't know what to do about it. I sat on it and so on. I might have a personal challenge that means I am just not comfortable. My style might not be to share certain things that you're asking me to share. And so that's why having that ability to observe people, to read the situation, to ask questions rather than assume something about someone. Those skills are so important. Have always been important, but we've not been very good at them, but I think super important for younger generations of leaders because they want to have a very different way of being with people. And I think we've gotten a little bit waylaid by things like talking about being vulnerable at work or imposter syndrome. I feel they are distracting from what really we should be talking about, which is our ability to have conversations with people. 

Tim 29:19
You know, when we take the employee perspective, or at least the person that's reporting into the leader they're carrying with them, their identity of who they think they need to be. And I mean, one of the chronic things I see is that when people get their first salary job, or when they're showing up at a boardroom table, they have this idea that they got hired to be the person that was fire and forget it. Should know everything about everything and should not come with questions or fears or a need to learn and grow. And so if they're asked something they don't know, I hate that fake it till you make it. Just despise the term. But often, people will say nothing, or they will fear that vulnerability. And at the same time, we've got leaders that, as you say, they need to be fluent in their own style and the style of their people so that they can tell that. You know what, this person just doesn't open up in this way, we require a different approach and then make it safe, like imposter syndrome means that a person has to fake it. You know what? I mean? Like, I feel like I'm faking it. Well, when are you enough? When are you enough to just go in and say, this is where I'm at? And if the leader is leading in a way that they are growth-minded, as we say, and not scarce-minded, or transactionally minded, that this person is supposed to show up with all the answers, then we got room for that. Does the employee understand that that's the case? Is their experience consistent, that it's constantly reinforced, and then we can get to this period of openness? And I think that's what you answered, was, why are people worried? Why would they ever hold back? Well, because they're humans.

Sehaam 31:02
Absolutely, and I think we go into conversations assuming we have a right to have this conversation. So another thing that I teach is what I call trust, permission, dynamic. You might have worked with someone for a long time and think that you know them and you have a certain level of trust, but actually, for each conversation that you're in, you can't assume that you have the trust enough for the topics that you need to discuss, and so it's being mindful of what's the mood that you're both entering this conversation with. Has one of you come out of a tough conversation or a meeting and is feeling a bit flustered or is distracted and really just syncing with each other and establishing, you know, contracting how you're going to use this time together. What are you going to talk about? What are you going to resolve? But we too often assume and step into spaces, and because we're not inviting enough, we're not inviting of the other person, there just isn't that exploration, there isn't that sharing, there isn't that emotional connection between us to get into it. And so it's important that we do make time for these, and I know people are stretched, but honestly, there's a lot of meetings that we're in that we shouldn't be in, don't need to be in. And like I said earlier, we should be making time for that. And there is that expectation, right?

Tim 32:27
Yeah, you used the word false economy earlier, and I think that that's really, you know, that thought that we're saving time by skipping over the connection time, it's going to bite you. You're going to pay for it one way or another. That knowledge of, do we have the right to do things? I mean, even when you and I talked most recently here, I know that I have time blindness. I don't view the passage of time and something I've had to learn about myself. And when you and I talk, it could be years between conversations, and for me, it's like yesterday. I have to be very careful that I'm not assuming trust for somebody that has felt the passage of time, you know. So I have to sort of start where we're at. And as you were speaking, it brought up something really interesting for me, a leader, because they're out there doing the strategic stuff, because they're out there talking to the CEO, or they're out there, you know, in the public, and then maybe they gave a press conference, or they're talking in front of the whole team there, there's going to be a lot of questions. They're very visible, and there's a lot of questions from the report saying, What does this mean for me? And you may need to have time to have them answer those questions, whereas the challenge for the leader is that person may have been working tactically, operationally, and we don't know exactly what they're doing and what they're dealing with. And so where our work is highly visible and we need to explain it, yet their work is somewhat invisible or hard to see, and we need to have them explain it. We're coming from two very, very different positions, where they're making a lot of assumptions based on what we're doing, and we're making a lot of assumptions based on what we did when we did the work, or what we think the job should be, and holy moly, what a powder keg that can create if we don't deal with it.

Sehaam 34:11
Right? And there's definitely a power imbalance, right? Just by virtue of us being their boss, can skew, so if we are setting the agenda and we tell them how to do stuff, or we say, this is what we're going to talk about. Okay, you're the boss. I'm going to go with that, rather than actually bring something up that might actually be an idea about how the team functions, what we could do better, right? All of these things. So, yeah, you know. And a certain amount of ego and showing that we know stuff and so on, but we really have to let go of that and create that space for growth. I think you mentioned that earlier, for someone else to grow, because if you're not doing it, you're not fulfilling your role, right? And those nasty surprises and all that concealment will continue. We conceal things to protect ourselves, to make ourselves look better to others, to manage our reputation, and so on. And you've got to be aware that those things are happening, you know, within your team and through the whole range of malicious to innocent and just, you know, I'm not experienced at work. I didn't want to talk about it, because I think it has a lot of air time, but this idea of imposter syndrome, it's the feeling that you have that you don't know enough, right? And so what we don't teach people to do is to hatch a plan, come up with a strategy, think stuff through, reach out to people, right? Have a way that you respond to situations where you don't have all the information. And you know, on the flip side, it's that the thing that drives leaders to jump in with an answer or tell people what to do, is this value that we hold in society, that we should have the answers that leaders do need to know. And to your point earlier, right? I'm hired because I know how to do this stuff, 100%, 110%, so actually, yeah, that bit's great, and that's important, and that's why you're in the role, and you've certainly earned your stripes to be in that leadership role. But now things have changed, and now you have other people that you're growing and, you know, I mentioned earlier, the opportunity to share your knowledge comes towards the end, and you and I know that as course correcting, what have you, and stress testing somebody's ideas, so getting into those sorts of questions of, you know, how do you think it'll happen in this situation? What have we not thought of? And I can share my perspective or my experience of doing this. And it went, what do you think? Do you think that has merit for here in this situation that you're dealing with? Is there something that would be valuable there? That's where we can come in with our knowledge, that's where we can do that course correcting and teach that person to think more deeply, to think several steps ahead, because that's what we want. We want our team members to be able to respond to things, to adapt, to foresee and anticipate, and even just know how to conduct themselves when the unexpected happens. 

Tim 37:16
And to have a good relationship with that. Not knowing, you know, it's an oldie, but a goodie. You don't know. Add the word yet. You don't know yet, and be able to have those yet discussions with your staff and say, No, you don't have the answer yet. How are you going to get there? Tell me what you think you need to do. And then, as you say, come in at the end. And you've given us this great model, or at least this visualization of, you know, for the leader, understand that they have pressures of their own, and we need to understand what those are, and the concealment is a natural thing, and it's going to happen. And as leaders, we can work with this positively by making sure that we're giving them the opportunity to recognize that in themselves and coaching them through it, and then being supportive and moving a lot of our initiative to the end, saying, all right now we can review how they did, and maybe they've taught us a thing or two so that we don't have to be caving to our own pressure to be the expert, or to get it done quickly, or to be the rightest person in the room, right? 

Sehaam 38:26
What I do hear a great deal from leaders who graduated from Leaders Who Coaches, and even through the program, they talk a lot because I make them go and practice these skills, right? So sit on your hands, ask these questions, listen, and so on. And they come back, and they go, Wow, they came up with something I never would have thought of. I really didn't know that that was going on, or I didn't know they had that position or those thoughts. They actually came up with something better. And once leaders start to build up their own evidence for those skills working. It's really easy to keep doing them. You know, you get a much richer conversation and an outcome when you do sit on your hands and stop telling people what to do.

Tim 39:12
I think we’ve covered a lot of ground today. As you've said, I think that's a great segue knowing what graduates of your program look like to let's take a moment here, and we're going to get you to the question you're going to ask the next person. But before we do, let's talk about, what are you excited about. You’ve got this course that’s available. Tell us a little bit more. What else are you excited about?

Sehaam 39:31
I'm excited about us moving into truly what I believe to be the next wave, if you like, or the next era of leadership. And you and I talked earlier, there's command and control that everyone knows and hates, and then we've got servant leadership, which doesn't always get a good rap. We also have had a decade or two of coaches being around and people, more and more people, know what it's like to be coached, and certainly know that coaches exist, right? So, for me, the next obvious sort of move is that leaders have these coaching skills, and that's what excites me because what I love about this younger generation of leaders coming through is that they're really hungry for that. They're hungry for a collaborative style of leading. They're not accepting of what they've seen before. They know it can be better. They might not know what that better is, but they're really searching for it, and they're challenging organizations, you know, with talking about culture and so on, and that is prime fertile ground for, you know, more and more leaders having these coaching skills and being coach leaders or modelling coach leadership through the organization or with their team, because you are you're modelling your team and your peers. Watch what other people are doing because they're looking for answers, too. Nobody has all the answers. Nobody knows everything that they're doing. Everyone has doubts. And so it's just, how do you show up? That's what's exciting.

Tim 41:12
If people are going to engage with these thoughts of yours, where can they find you? What can they pick up?

Sehaam 41:18
Folks can go to my website, which is coachlead.co, you can find me on LinkedIn. So my handle is Sehaam, S, E, H, double, A, M, and you'll find me on YouTube as well. Sehaam Cyrene.

Tim 41:33
And you mentioned you injected a book into the mix, into the universe. Tell us about that.

Sehaam 41:38
It's called The Better Conversations Rulebook: Questions and Phrases Practiced Daily by Leaders Who Coach. It's a sequence of essays, if you like, with a total of 88 questions and phrases and explainers for why you might use them in different situations and what's their purpose. So it's a very practical guide to different scenarios that we're facing, and many of them are the sort of the most popular ones that Leaders Who Coach use. So yeah.

Tim 42:09
Okay, let's get to the question. So you were kind enough to feel the question the pop fly that Tim had sent for you. What would be your question to the next person in line? 

Sehaam 42:21
Okay, so my question is, Who or what anchors you when you're having a tough time, and if they feel comfortable sharing how, that will be wonderful.

Tim 42:34
So the who or the what would be that would be a memory or a pivotal moment or a pivotal person. 

Sehaam 42:41
It could be a person, it could be a writer, it could be an actor, depending on what your profession is, right? Might be someone in your industry, might be a family member, someone living, or they might be a historical someone who's just influenced you so much that you kind of go back to again and again.

Tim 43:00
Okay, great. So I will lob that question at the next person there, and for all of you, it's a great question for our listeners to ponder. Right. Sehaam, as always. It's been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate your smiling face and your wonderful ways. It's just such a joy to spend time with you. 

Sehaam 43:18
Thank you, likewise, Tim, I do. I do. Enjoy our chats. 

Tim 43:23
Okay, let's not take it too long before the next one. 

​Tim 43:28
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us. You think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading you.

Episode Summary: In this episode, outdoor adventurers Tim Beissinger and Renee Miller, known as the “Thru Hikers,” dive into their transformative journey from academia to the trail. They share stories of how they re-prioritized their lives to pursue hiking, including Renee’s incredible achievement of completing the Oregon section of the Pacific Crest Trail in a record 14 days and Tim’s memorable solo hike around the Tahoe Rim Trail. Along the way, they reflect on the mental and physical challenges of such feats, the unexpected influence they've had on others, and how hiking opened new doors in both their personal and professional lives.

Episode Notes
In this episode, outdoor adventurers Tim Beissinger and Renee Miller, known as the “Thruhikers,” dive into their transformative journey from academia to the trail. They share stories of how they re-prioritized their lives to pursue hiking, including Renee’s incredible achievement of completing the Oregon section of the Pacific Crest Trail in a record 14 days and Tim’s memorable solo hike around the Tahoe Rim Trail. Along the way, they reflect on the mental and physical challenges of such feats, the unexpected influence they've had on others, and how hiking opened new doors in both their personal and professional lives. 

Tim and Renee emphasize that making room for big goals sometimes means stepping away from traditional career paths and taking the leap into the unknown. They also talk about the concept of "the trail provides," explaining how nature often teaches lessons of resourcefulness, teamwork, and resilience. They encourage listeners to follow their own paths, embrace unconventional choices, and make time for passions that may not fit the mould of societal expectations. 
With practical tips on overcoming challenges and advice for those seeking balance between their goals and careers, they offer an inspiring call to action for anyone feeling stuck in a routine. Listeners can follow their journey on social media and dive deeper into their insights with their new book, *A Guide to Life on the Trail*.

About Tim Beissinger and Renee Miller
Renee Miller and Tim Beissinger, @thruhikers, love going on outdoor adventures by foot, bike, canoe, or any other non-motorized transport. In 2021, they thruhiked the Continental Divide Trail: 3,000 miles from Mexico to Canada. They have also thruhiked the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada and hiked approximately 1,000 miles around Germany. They have backpacked all over the USA, bike toured in Europe and South America, and have both completed an Ironman. They love to cook and eat. They live in Mountain View, California.
And then a more recent update is that Renee recently achieved an impressive feat by completing a thru-hike of the Pacific Crest Trail across Oregon in just 14 days and 14 hours—shattering the previous record by 1.5 days, all while contending with record-breaking temperatures!

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Thruhikers: A Guide to Life on the Trail

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Tim Beissinger and Renee Miller | Thruhikers: 

• Website: Thruhikers.co
• Instagram: @Thruhikers
• YouTube: Thruhikers
• Email: contact@thruhikers.co
• TikTok: @Thruhikers
• Linkedin: TimBeissinger

Transcript:
Tim Beissinger: 00:01
It's compelling to want to mimic the path that's worked for others, but everybody's individual, and it can be more powerful to follow the path that makes sense for yourself. That's one thing that that I think can be a fear for folks when they're thinking, what do they do next? And they want to do the right thing instead of wanting to do what makes the most sense for them.

Renee Miller: 00:20
If you want to take a break from your job and hike for six months, if that's right for you and that's what you want to do, just do it, and the trail will provide. Life will provide and you'll be a better person and learn a lot and have a great story to tell because of it.

Tim Sweet 00:35
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 42 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Well, welcome back to Sweet on Leadership today. We're going to explore exploration. We're going to talk to two explorers about the journeys that they're taking and the journeys that all of us are able to take, what's open to us. And sometimes, you know, we may have these things at our fingertips, and we don't actually realize that we can pick them up and enjoy them. And I'm really happy to welcome Renee Miller and Tim Beissinger. They're a dynamic couple that are known on social media as the Thruhikers, and when I think of people that are just gripping and ripping it, that are just living life to the fullest, I can't help but have your faces come into my mind. So thank you so much Tim and Renee for joining me here today.

Tim Beissinger 01:52
Thank you. It's great to be here. 

Renee Miller 01:54
Yea, Thank you. 

Tim Sweet 01:56
For those of you that don't know Tim and Renee and we're going to give you ways that you can follow them, because it's exciting. They have conquered some of the most challenging wilderness trails in the world, from the Pacific Crest Trail to the Continental Divide Trail, and most recently, Renee, you smashed the record for the Oregon section of the PCT the Pacific Coast Trail in just 14 days and 14 hours. So congratulations for that. Not to be outdone, Tim then answered with his own solo event around the Tahoe Rim Trail. So, you know, it's so much fun to watch you guys do this. 

Tim Beissinger 02:31
Just to interrupt for a second, I was outdone. I just walked in a circle around a lake at a normal amount of time. Renee set a record. So I was outdone. No question there.

Tim Sweet 02:41
And when we talk about Renee that accomplishment, I mean that was, as you said, unsupported. And I was watching one of your posts the other day. You were sharing these stats, which I thought were just amazing. You had started with, was it a 38 pound pack, and it ended up being 12 pounds at the end of it, and you were pulling in these major hours, like, well over or what was it? 180 hours walked, and, you know, pulling in these major distances. So talk to us just a little bit about that. What's the size of something like that for you.

Renee Miller 03:12
Yeah. I mean, it was probably one of the hardest things I've done, both physically and mentally. A lot of fun though, at the same time.

Tim Sweet 03:19
Yeah, I found you when you were originally setting out on the transcontinental. And I remember that first episode where you were filtering water out of a cattle trough, and it was gross. And I was like, oh, man, these are my type of people. And I can imagine when we look at how many people have followed you since then, 2.1 million on TikTok, 364,000 on Instagram, 868,000 on YouTube. You are a major part of people's weeks. They take a moment to live vicariously through you and be inspired by you. And so much of it is just again, it's like this different relationship with the world in front of us. Does it feel strange to have that reputation and that meaning in people's lives?

Tim Beissinger 04:10
Yeah, it does, really. It all started because we like to be outdoors, exploring, and our first thruhike was the Pacific Crest Trail. That's 2650 miles. We didn't make videos, we didn't document it. We just loved it, so we wanted to do it again. And we were playing around with videos, and people started watching, and that's been exciting, but also it is… it is strange to know that we're influencing how people approach the outdoors and what folks goals are out there, and we sort of ended up with the voice of authority that we've never quite set out to have, but hopefully we're doing an okay job of it.

Tim Sweet 04:49
What's it like for you, Renee, when you bring this into your regular life, into your day job,

Renee Miller 04:54
Tim is more of an extrovert. I'm more of an introvert. So you know, starting out, it was more of a challenge for me to put myself out there, but through Tim's encouragement and through the responses we got saying that we are inspiring people to get outside, to live healthier. It's been pretty rewarding.

Tim Sweet 05:15
That's awesome. We have a tradition here, where, before we get into the meat of our conversation, I bomb a random question at you from from our previous guest, and this one comes from Erin Ashbacher. So Erin's question was and she didn't know who I was going to be lobbying this at. At the time when you have those big things in life, those big projects, or those big goals, and they're sitting in some shelf getting dusty somewhere. For yourselves, how do you take those big, gnarly goals off the shelf, and actually, you know, starting on them. What's your process? That was her question. How do you handle big stuff, big goals?

Tim Beissinger 05:56
Yeah, so the way we've done it in the past is we make room for them, and I'll give an example. But if the big goal is big enough that it needs to push something else out of the way, we push it out of the way. The example is our first through hike of the Pacific Crest Trail. Renee really wanted to do that trail, and I was a new a professor. Renee was an engineer, and we felt like, I felt like there wasn't room to tackle that big project, that big goal of doing the PCT, it was something to put off until we retired. And Renee was persistent and said, No, we're only going to get slower and weaker and like now's the right time to do a hike like this. So why would we wait until we're struggling with health when we're retiring, instead of doing it now when we're 30? And so we quit our jobs. We made room, we took that off the shelf, we put some other stuff on the shelves, which were these jobs that were going quite well, and we tackled the PCT. And I think for me, that was a really hard leap of faith to say, wow, I've got my career going just the way I want it, but it's not going to be the priority right now, but we can figure that out later. And it worked, you know, we did that hike, we came back. We both sort of didn't even hit a speed bump in our career trajectories. And so it was a big learning that we could make room to take something off the shelf and do it without it slowing us down.

Tim Sweet 07:29
And if you'd cave to that fear, that idea that it would derail your careers, it would have been a risk that you were mitigating. That wasn't actually a risk. And by the way, you said hike. But how many days was that, quote, unquote, hike? 

Renee Miller 07:46
Four and a half months.

Tim Sweet 07:48
Yeah. There you go.

Tim Beissinger 07:49
Yeah. So for that one, we quit our jobs entirely. And you know, my PhD advisor found out that I quit my job as a professor and told me, this was career suicide. What are you doing? He was wrong. It was not career suicide. After the trail, I got a better job as a better professor at a better university, and so it was fine to do that, and we would have missed the opportunity. And like you say, it wasn't a risk, and Renee had the same sort of job situation,

Renee Miller 08:18
Yeah, yep, I was able to get a job after our you know, a job is a job, and a career is long term. And we've both had successful, very successful careers, even though we've had to quit a job here or there.

Tim Sweet 08:34
Yea, I mean, Tim was saying that, and that you were the driving force behind that. So before it was clear to Tim, or before you went in on faith, Tim, what was that vision that just made it a must do. That was the path of least resistance for you. 

Renee Miller 08:54
Yeah, I think it was wanting to tackle something unknown. You know, I don't like to follow the normal path of that society tells me to follow. That's kind of always been a trait that I've had, and I think it was a big adventure, a big unknown adventure. And, you know, I loved the outdoors, and thought, Why? Why not?

Tim Sweet 09:19
If I was to ask you, in your mind at that point, if you can, if you can, cast back to that, what was the risk of not doing it? Had you not done it, what would have likely happened that would be the source of regret, or, like, where do you think you would have been if you had not done it?

Renee Miller 09:37
I don't know where. Yeah, that is a good question. It has definitely changed our lives. And so, yeah, I mean maybe still just living a normal life, yeah.

Tim Sweet 09:47
So it'd be stuck in the mundane, that average existence, yeah. And we talk about, you know, what's average for everybody? May not, you know, help us be who we truly need to be in the moment. So you've done these amazing things. Tell me a little bit about what some of the most memorable times on the trail have been for you, as you've gone out and tackled these various challenges put in front of yourself.

Tim Beissinger 10:12
Oh gosh. I mean, the dangerous times are always memorable. Those are embarrassing too, because there have been a few times we've gotten ourselves into into trouble. We've never been injured out there, but, but we've come close. So, you know, one time, we were trying to cross the Olympic Peninsula, and there was a lot of snow, and we were walking for miles on a really steep slope on the side of snow and ice, and I slipped and fell, and a tree caught me and I partially dislocated my shoulder. It does that. It's a skateboarding accident from when I was young. So, so anyway, it was okay, but I smashed into this tree, and Renee was watching, for all she knew, I was dead, and my shoulder was kind of dislocated, so for all I knew, I was terribly injured, and turned out we were fine. But that's memorable, because it's embarrassing. We shouldn't have done that. We ended up turning around and going back and finding a different route, much safer route, around those mountains. Had the snow not been there, it would have been great. But that's one thing that stands out for me, for sure.

Renee Miller 11:21
And I think another thing is just the people you meet, you think you're going into a wilderness experience, but you always bump into other people out there hiking, and there's a lot of cool, interesting people out hiking or in the trails along the way that you never would have had the experience to interact with had you not done a trip like this.

Tim Beissinger 11:44
Anybody who's spending four months on a long hike is likely to have an interesting background that got them there. And so we've had some really great conversations and met some really good friends out there on the trail. 

Tim Sweet 11:57
I remember you did a post that was, tell who's the thruhiker by what tent they use. And I remember watching that and being like, I got it mostly right, but I was thinking, you know, somebody has a tent that has a generator and blows up or something. It's like, you know, cool. So, at this point, we find that this is a big part of your life. You are having new opportunities and new aspects of your ability to impact and influence people open up. So you've done these amazing things. You've set goals for yourself, you've made big life changes in order to make them possible, and you've made that space for them, as you talked about you're both professionals, and you're influencing and leading other people. What would be a more commonplace example of where you see a person's inability to make space for something get in their way. 

Tim Beissinger 12:55
I think jobs as people are picking their career path, it's really tempting to want to do the right thing. So I was an academic for a long time before I've now switched over to industry, but in the academic world, it's really set. If you want to be a professor, first you do a PhD, then you do a postdoc, then you might do another postdoc, then, if you're lucky, you get a job as the professor. And it doesn't have to go that way. You could go from PhD to a company, to a postdoc to a professor, or PhD to a, you know, whatever, to straight to a postdoc, and then switch over to industry and build some chops there and come back and professor or or maybe be a professor for a little bit and decide to switch over. I think people have a fear of getting off of that PhD postdoc Professor path, because all of the examples they look to are doing exactly that, and it's compelling to want to mimic the path that's worked for others, but everybody's individual, and it can be more powerful to follow the path that makes sense for yourself. That's one thing that that I think can be a fear for folks when they're thinking, what do they do next? And they want to do the right thing instead of wanting to do what makes the most sense for them. 

Tim Sweet 14:11
Renee, how would you add on to that?

Renee Miller 14:13
You get so caught up into your daily lives and the tasks that you you know, you go to work and have to get all these tasks done and come home and have responsibilities at home, but yeah, you kind of forget about yourself. And you know what about that professional engineering license that would be really good for my career? Oh, I don't have time for that, because I'm busy working and, yeah, just talking with people and reminding them to prioritize themselves and their resumes, and it'll probably be good for their company as well to get those certifications. Yeah. 

Tim Beissinger 14:52
I've witnessed that from Renee. She, as a young engineer, was always making time for a professional society that really had no bearing on your day to day job, but it was so big for networking and meeting folks.

Renee Miller 15:09
And staying current on your industry. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Sweet 15:13
So many of the people that listen are engineers or stem folks. You know, it's a huge part of my practice, working with engineers and geologists and, you know, scientists, chemists, etc, often when I help them move through things, not to make this about me, but we can lean on their engineering jobs, you know, because you can design and engineer the life you want, and the outcome is always, or usually, a product of, well, what's the design? And I use this video, if you may have seen it. It's probably 15, maybe 20 years old now, but a group from MIT had designed a bike with square wheels that could roll as long as the road was a series of ARCs right, the same distance as a side. Now, it wasn't a terribly flexible system, right? But often people, they try to mould themselves to the road, rather than molding the road to themselves. It's such an inefficient way to live, in a sense, because then you end up shaving off the corners, shaving off those sharp bits that make you special and that make you particularly effective, in order to conform, and we have to often realize that we have the ability to change those things. We have things we can leverage and choices we can make. Sorry, to dive into my stuff, but,

Tim Beissinger 16:44
No, yeah, it's a great way to put it. 

Tim Sweet 16:40
Yeah. So the next thing that I would ask you is, when a person tells you they can't do something, what might be a typical response that you would use to open them up to the possibilities that could be in front of them?

Tim Beissinger 16:52
Oh, gosh. I've got a lot of experience training graduate students. So that's a typical encounter, is I don't know how to do this, or tell me how to do this. I can't do it. I have a very practical answer. This isn't quite philosophical, but it's just practical. What I always tell them is, you know how to use Google, and the answers are out there. You can figure it out. And I think that attitude of being resourceful and figuring things out is huge. I'm going to get personal. I hope that's okay. When I was a child, my dad had brain cancer, and I had four siblings, so there were five of us total. My mom spent a lot of time taking care of my dad. It was a great upbringing, but it meant I didn't get quite as much attention as I might have if I was an only child and had two fully functional parents. That taught me how to be a little more resourceful. It meant if I wanted to solve a problem, I couldn't just ask my parents to do it. I might do it myself. Or if I wanted to get validation at a school sports outing, it didn't necessarily come from the traditional my parents sitting there on the audience with a tape recorder filming every single event. And that was a good thing that really instilled this attitude of independence and resourcefulness, and I think it's helped me be the person I am today. So, that is what I try to teach my graduate students. Is Google it, ask people questions about how to do things, try and fail. We do a lot of coding in my field. So like, you can write code if it doesn't work, erase it, write it again, and keep doing that 100 times. 

Tim Sweet 18:29
What is that again? So everybody is… quantitative geneticist. Is that right? 

Tim Beissinger 18:32
Yeah, that's what I am, a quantitative geneticist. Yeah. There you go. So, so that's my my standard advice when people feel like they can't do something, is they can. They might just have to learn the base. 

Tim Sweet 18:43
So if confidence isn't in your DNA, you would say confidence isn't in your DNA yet.
Tim Beissinger 18:48
I'd say, Google it. 

Tim Sweet 18:49
We're going to code it in there and Google it. There you go. So Renee, would you have any experiences when you have people that come to you feeling stuck or feeling like they can't? 

Renee Miller 19:03
In addition to what Tim said, I think teamwork is a huge thing, and don't feel like you're stuck by yourself trying to figure it out. Get help and talk with the people around you. And more brains are better than one at solving problems 100%

Tim Sweet 19:22
I'm going to call an audible here and talk a little bit about one of your episodes that I really liked when you were doing the Tahoe Rim Trail, you shared that you were having some issues with feet problems and that you were breaking your own rules. I heard you say Renee usually kept you on the straight and narrow when you were hiking together, and so the two of you formed that kind of partnership where you know you're thinking about different things, and that teamwork was felt literally by you on that trip. Like here's something that I may not think about in the moment, but Renee keeps me honest.

Tim Beissinger 20:10
Yeah, yeah, I don't think I used that phrase the straight and narrow. I did something, but I didn't say that.

Tim Sweet 20:06
No, you didn't say it that way. Sorry. I am paraphrasing, but

Tim Beissinger 20:08
But really close just keeps me on the straight and narrows, but, but no, that's absolutely true. When we're hiking together, we know, here I'm talking in the “we.” Because together, we know that doing too many miles too soon is a recipe for injury, and honestly, it's not so much of a we it's really Renee reminding us that over and over again. And so there I was doing a solo hike. We almost always hiked together, but I did the Tahoe Rim Trail alone, without the wisdom of Renee, and I injured myself right away. It was four days in, and I had a busted Shin, and had to take five days off, and so that was a reminder that we're we're better together than alone. I probably offer some stuff to our joint partnership, also when we're out on a hike. 

Renee Miller 21:00
Yes, definitely.

Tim Beissinger 21:01
The wisdom part is definitely coming from Renee.

Tim Sweet 21:04
Well, let's hit the other side, then Renee. What does Tim offer? 

Renee Miller 21:06
Well, he's a good cook, so I definitely eat better when he's around.

Tim Beissinger 21:15
So you keep you keep it nourished, and keep the color in your cheeks, in a sense.

Renee Miller 21:19
Yep, yep. But yeah, I think we're really good as a team, and he definitely likes to push us. You know, sometimes I come up with these crazy ideas, but Tim helps make sure we follow through with these crazy ideas and so it's a really a cool team that we have together, and it's good to do it on our own, and work on all sides of ourselves as well. And remember what our strengths and weaknesses. 

Tim Sweet 21:49
I think that comes through in so many of your posts. So I think that that's a great thing that people can expect to take away if they were to follow you, as we sort of wrap up here. I guess what I would say is this is we talk about all of these things, and I can't do your accomplishments and the amount of effort you put into these things justice. I can't in this amount of time, I really would encourage people to look out for you and follow you. But when you think to the people that are listening here, and many of them are are engaged with us, because we bring such unique people like yourselves onto it, what's that point that you want them to leave with today. What is that wish that you have for them?

Tim Beissinger 22:34
I think, it's a phrase. The phrase is the trail provides, and that's a lesson that you learn on a long hike, which is when you really need something, you get it from the trail. There's direct examples we have of of needing a cell phone cable that we forgot to bring, and that exact cell phone cable was just lying on the road. But the more important ones are the indirect examples, like when that I mentioned earlier, I fell down the mountain and hit a tree while the trail provided an alternate route around that mountain. It was there. There was a mapped bike path that we were able to walk instead. It wasn't what we had been aiming for, but it was provided by the trail. Or there's been times that we're running low on water, and a water source that we hadn't expected based on our maps showed up and it was in excess. There's tons of examples like that, and then they come back to life. And in normal life, when you're opening your mind to not just following one direct, clear path, but letting your life provide opportunities, you can follow those opportunities and have a lot of fun with them. An example from our life is our videos that we make. We never planned on being large internet influencers. We just happened to post some videos that got a lot of views, and then we ran with it, and it's been a really fun, really fulfilling project that we do. Life provides, the trail provides, I think that's a really important lesson that I've learned, and hopefully others can learn it too.

Tim Sweet 24:09
Yeah, just open yourself up to all of those doors that are in front of you and be observant. Okay, great. Renee.

Renee Miller 24:16
Just expanding on that. Don't be afraid to follow your own path if you know you don't have to follow what society tells you if you want to, you know, take a break from your job and hike for six months. If that's right for you, and that's what you want to do, just do it, and the trail will provide, life will provide and you'll be a better person and learn a lot and have a great story to tell because of it. 

Tim Sweet 24:46
It's really interesting when you think about that, when we follow the path that might be traditional or laid out in front of us, whether that is the career arc of a professor or whether that is putting your job on hold to try something adventurous, the standard path that's in front of us is not there by accident. But part of that is it's not built on individual experiences. It's built on sort of the common experience. And if we know anything about looking at the averages of groups, it tends to trend towards the lowest common denominator. It tends to trend towards the path that's been the safest for the most amount of people, which means for half the population, that could actually be curtailing your potential. Gallup recently came out with a figure that said 10% of the population actually have the makeup, personality, skills, work style, expression of genius, all of these things to be leaders. And I think it's actually a heck of a lot lower than that, because there's many people that aren't given the opportunity to lead. Could be socioeconomic, it could be gender, it could be any myriad of other things, race or whatnot, that kept them out of that. So it's somewhere between 4% and 6% I would say typically, is what, where you get these natural died in the wool leaders, and I define that by it's people that are willing to take risks, especially when it comes to owning other people's results, and would potentially damage themselves, but never do it anyway else, because that's how they're built. I think for those people, your words are going to ring like a clarion call in the wilderness. All right, thank you so much for taking the time to join me. We're going to do just a couple of little wrap up exercises. The first is, I would like you to ponder on a question that you'd like to ask the next guest in line, and I will bring that up at the beginning of the interview.

Tim Beissinger 26:54
 Well, I do have a question. We talked at the beginning about how to take things off the shelf, and my advice was, make room for them, take them off and push something else out. And so my question for the next guest is, if you have to do that, if you need to clear up room in your schedule, what is one thing that you're doing that you would or want to get out that you want to stop doing. We all have too many things to do and not enough time. So what would you cut? And it doesn't have to be like, Oh, I'd stop tying my shoes. It doesn't have to be that specific, but maybe just some idea about what you'd get rid of, if you could get rid of anything without consequences.

Tim Sweet 27:42
Yeah, do you know where your easy cut is? Well, I've enjoyed following you for the last it's got to be two years. It feels like easily, because it was covid when you started, right? 

Tim Beissinger 27:53
Yeah, if you were watching us filter from cow troughs, it's been three years, three years.

Tim Sweet 27:57
Oh my gosh, time flies. I think people are going to be really interested in your in your story, and you've got so much to teach in such a wonderful way. Where can people find you? Where would you like them to look for you?

Tim Beissinger 28:09
For folks who are wanting to get outdoors more, we have a brand new book out through hikers, A Guide to Life on the trail, and our goal with that book was to make trips more enjoyable. So we took everything we've learned from 10,000 plus we haven't added it up in a while, but maybe 12 or 13,000 miles of exploring the outdoors, all of our learnings to have the most enjoyable trips that we can have, and put them in a book, along with a bunch of backpacking recipes for dehydrated food. So so that's one great place for people to look for us.

Renee Miller 28:41
Otherwise, we're at through hikers on Tiktok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, awesome.

Tim Sweet 28:48
We’re going to put all of that information in the shownotes. As people engage with you. What type of energy are you really excited to bring to your channel next?

Renee Miller 28:58
We love being outdoors, and all of our stuff is about hiking and the outdoors, and it's positive educational content about how to be safe and enjoy yourself in the outdoors and food and cooking.

Tim Sweet 29:14
And food and cooking right on. So, I want to say a big thank you for making this happen. I know that it was a bit of a route to get here, but you're not opposed to that. You guys set long routes all the time. So yeah,

Tim Beissinger 29:26
Thank you for having us. It's been really a lot of fun to talk about all this stuff. It's not the usual podcast, or not the usual podcast for us at least. Which is all about what's the most dangerous animal you've seen, which those are good too. But this was a fun exploration of other topics. 

Tim Sweet 29:44
It’s podcasts like yours that helps people lead more enriched lives and inspires people by showing them look what's possible. And why not, you know? And it's just a matter of going to Google, in a sense, figuring it out, watching shows like yours, to get some tips, and then just, you know, getting on the trail. And I really appreciate that coming from you guys. You know for myself, getting back into hiking, it's a real source of energy and inspiration. So thank you.

Tim Beissinger 30:17
Thank you.

Renee Miller 30:18
Thank you.

Tim Sweet 30:21
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word, too, by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: Ready to explore how small fitness tweaks can boost your energy and enhance your leadership skills? In this episode of Sweet on Leadership, Tim Sweet talks with personal trainer Erin Ashbacher about the vital connection between physical wellness and leadership performance. They explore simple strategies for incorporating exercise into busy routines, offering tips for executives and caregivers alike to recharge their energy and mental resilience.

Episode Notes
Have you ever wondered how small fitness tweaks can unlock your leadership potential and supercharge your energy? In Episode 41 of Sweet on Leadership, host Tim Sweet welcomes back Erin Ashbacher, a CSEP-certified personal trainer and senior health advisor, to discuss the powerful connection between physical fitness and leadership performance. Erin reveals that even the smallest changes in your daily routine, like a brisk walk or standing on one leg while brushing your teeth, can recharge your mental and physical energy, helping you grow stronger in both your personal and professional life.

Throughout the episode, Tim and Erin dive into the challenges executives and caregivers face in maintaining their health while leading others. Erin offers practical, bite-sized strategies to help listeners integrate wellness into their busy schedules without feeling overwhelmed. From building mental resilience through exercise to the importance of proper hydration, the conversation is packed with actionable tips to boost your personal energy and leadership capacity. Whether you're a leader managing a team or a caregiver balancing responsibilities, this episode offers empowering insights to help you thrive in every aspect of your life.

About Erin Ashbacher
Erin Ashbacher, a distinguished Senior Health Advisor and CSEP-certified personal trainer, is a driving force in health, wellness, and fitness. Armed with a Bachelor of Kinesiology from The University of Calgary, Erin, a powerlifter and former dancer, seamlessly combines expertise in movement, nutrition, and motivation.
As the owner of ERA Fitness, Erin boasts a top 10 industry performance since 2016, offering personalized training and coaching services. Her approach, emphasizing life balance and aligning health with professional goals, positions her as a key collaborator for leadership development clients in Calgary and beyond. Erin's superpowers encompass listening, goal-setting, movement expertise, and the ability to create customized programs, both in-person and online. Rooted in a famous Alberta rodeo family, she brings a unique appreciation for farming and ranching to her multifaceted lifestyle, which includes enjoying outdoor activities with her partner, Doug.

Resources: 
National Saftey Council 2019: Cost of Fatigue in the Workplace
Centre of Disease Control 2016: A good night’s sleep is critical for good health
A purpose in life by day results in better sleep at night: Northwestern 2017 Study
Julie Freedman Smith

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Erin Ashbacher | Shred Sisters: 

• Website: Shred Sisters
• Linkedin: Erin Ashbacher

Transcript
Erin 00:01
Take the disruption in the season or in the schedule as an opportunity to reassess and add in something new or change what you're doing right. All summer long, I was on my bike, and it was amazing. And now that it's fall, it's getting a little bit cooler, and taking it as an opportunity to reassess my activity schedule and get back into the gym and lift some weights again. So it's okay to do that.

Tim 00:25
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 41 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast.

Tim 00:56
Well, Hey everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. I'm excited, once again, to introduce my friend, personal trainer and TWE Health and Wellness Consultant, Erin Ashbacher. Erin is a CSEP-certified personal trainer and a senior health advisor. She's been involved in several different sports, and I'll let her tell you all about that, but she brings a wealth of experience to the table, and because 90% of the executives that I help have concerns in the health area. I am wonderfully privileged to have Erin on staff so that I can pass them off to her because she's infinitely more qualified than I am to help them in that space. So welcome again, Erin. Thanks for being here. 

Erin 01:41
Thanks for having me again. Tim. 

Tim 01:44
So on that note, you've done so many cool things. Tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your history, and what's got you moving and active right now.

Erin 01:55
Yeah, I did my degree at the University of Calgary in kinesiology, and I fell in love with how the body moves and how it reacts to different inputs, and I’ve had an amazing career working in cardiac rehabilitation and then working with high-level executives in downtown Calgary, as well as lots of different athletes from across a multitude of sports, both getting ready to compete, as well as some rehab and some prehab. So I just spent the entire summer on my bike, coaching mountain biking and getting athletes ready to hit the trails. Few that were looking to get faster for some races, but a lot of just kind of recreational people wanting to get out and enjoy the beautiful place that we live. 

Tim 02:42
Right, and I mean, we are at the foothills of some amazing riding, and as we know, we've got several friends in that industry, and such a joy to be able to work with people that are involved in that sport and putting on awesome events in that sport. So really good. So before we go too much further, we've got a little tradition here, as you know, and that is that we have our previous guest lob a question at possibly the next guest, who often they never know who it is. So your question comes from Massimo Bacchus, who's a fellow leadership coach and my new friend. I love new friends. Massimo asks, what is the one thing that you are most afraid of to let go, and if you did let go of that thing, who would you be?

Erin 03:29
Ooh, it's a great question. I would say that my biggest fear is being able to confidently tell others about my value and what would I bring to the table, it's always been this pull of you can make money or you can be genuine and authentic, and I know that that's not true, and so I would love to be able to kind of let that go, and I know that I would be able to make a much larger impact if I can get it for that. 

Tim 03:59
What would the first few days of a relationship with a new client look like if that stress was off you? 

Erin 04:07
Oh, I would probably sleep better in the night before I met a new client. Yeah, I mean, I know that I would come into things a lot more confidently. I wouldn't be worried about kind of this, like background of what the bill looks like at the end of the day, and just being able to walk in they would see that they know that, right? 

Tim 04:29
Well, it's funny that you say that, and it almost sounds like a plant, but I assure you, dear listeners, that it is not. We're going to be talking today about capacity. We're going to be talking today about our personal energy, and the energy that we're able to put into the workplace and put into our professions and put into our lives, and that body battery, that mental battery that each of us has, because Erin is the perfect person to talk about, how do we increase the ability of that battery to take more energy in, to use it more effectively, to recharge faster. Am I expecting too much from you there, Erin?

Erin 05:07
Uh, no. Not at all. 

Tim 05:09
You're totally game. Right on. A couple of little stats here that we were talking about before we got going. You know, when we look at the state of the workplace, and I have, I would say, almost all of the clients that I have, all the teams that I deal with, especially as we've come through some fairly tumultuous times, fatigue in the workplace, ability to feel like you've got anything left at the end of the week is an issue. Before COVID, the National Safety Council down in the states had done a study, and this was from 2019 where they figured at that time, it cost the US economy $136 billion in lost productivity when businesses weren't able to properly manage their capacity and manage their fatigue levels. And the Center for Disease Control at the same time told us that one in three adults didn't get enough sleep. Now, that, to me, is not surprising. In fact, I would be really surprised if that number, that number was from that number is actually from 2016 pardon me, if that isn't higher now, because of all the distractions and whatnot we've got plaguing us. 

Erin 06:17
Absolutely. 

Tim 06:18
Doom scrolling right before bed. 

Erin 06:21
Right, well, and thinking about quality and quantity of sleep, right? So, yeah, interesting. I'd love to see the new stat on that. 

Tim 06:29
Well, so as we launch into that, what do you see as the connection between physical and mental wellness and being able to show up and be the professional, be the leader, be the decision maker? How do you see that? 

Erin 06:45
Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of research that shows that exercise of all types, of light, moderate and vigorous exercise will help to enhance your mood, improve your energy levels, and promote your quality of sleep, and when we have all of those things, we can show up at our nine to five with more energy, right, more to give, right? And exercise is also going to be decreasing our stress hormones, right, increasing our endorphins when we exercise, so those feel good chemicals that we get in our body, and also decreasing our stress hormones, our cortisol levels. So, decreases in anxiety and increases in our mental health. 

Tim 07:31
For anyone that is able to get out for a walk when they are stressed, I was talking with a team around when they were dealing with high conflict in the workplace. And what do you do when you have to address a really, really difficult situation where you've got somebody that's in near on crisis, or at least is panicking, the ability, even just to get them out walking, switch the script. And I know that that's more the act of and it's a bit of a distraction, but I really believe that you know you're outside, you're breathing. In the moment, you can process things. You can set everything else aside. And that's, I mean, that's in the short term, but of course, you're also talking about in the long term, long-term capacity. 

Tim 08:13
Absolutely. And that's that whole like light exercise, right? Going for a 15 minute walk when something's really intense. Yeah, we see those that increase in heart rate right, when in a good way, right? And it helps to create, give us more clarity and more creativity, so that we can come back to our difficult thing with open eyes. 

Tim 08:35
So last time you were here, we talked about sort of the common challenges and resistances that people have to putting in the work or finding time throughout the day to exercise and take that time for themselves, and that it's really difficult mentally for some people to value themselves enough to do that. As you've worked with so many, I would say, executive clients you were working with clients that are at the top of their game, their CEOs, VPS, you're right in that space. What are some of the common health challenges that you have seen over the years crop up in that particular subset of people? 

Erin 09:17
The ones that aren't taking care of themselves? 

Tim 09:19
Or maybe they come to you with something? 

Erin 09:21
Yeah, they come to me with something. I mean, there's a lot of high blood pressure and a lot of sleep problems as well. When we are not taking care of ourselves, we're not taking care of our mental health, it can start to affect our sleep, right? Sleep is the number one predictor of health. So, you know, that's one of those things that we need to also take care of. 

Tim 09:42
There was a stat around the sleep connection that said it's like a virtuous cycle, right? That when people are getting better sleep, they are able to make more difficult decisions quickly. They're able to handle more stressful situations, as you say. But then also, if they get through those situations, if they are happy with their job, if they're content with their career, if they're happy with the staff that they've got, they can see up to 63% less sleep disturbances. In 2017 Northwestern did this study where they said, if you are satisfied at work, if you have less work stress, how does it impact your sleep? And they said it's well over a 50% increase that you can now put back into your day. So to me, that tells us that it's like you're getting the chance to not just refill your battery. It's like this virtuous cycle. It's getting better and better and better. Better sleep, a little more productive through the day. More productive through the day, less stress about taking an hour for yourself to go out and sweat. 

Erin 10:55
Absolutely, and I mean, I can speak to that in my own personal journey, right? When I was downtown, I was 12-14 hours a day, face to face with clients, and I would get my hour workout in, you know, five days a week minimum. And people always ask me, how do you do it? I'm like, I love what I do. That's how I do it. And, yeah, when I go home at the end of a day, I'm invigorated, because I feel like I've made such an impact, and working in an environment that is positive, right, surrounded by great people, it just, it's that cycle that you just keep feeding in, and then you have great night's sleep, and they feed in again, and it feeds you, yeah. 

Tim 11:36
Yeah. You know the challenge of being able to wake up on a Monday and be excited to get to work. It comes with its own challenges. I mean, you got to be careful not to work through your vacations and stuff. But you know, being excited and eager to do what you're doing with the people you want to do it with, there's no better way to feel like you are where you belong. And it's always surprising to me when there's people have yet to experience that, and they can just sit back and say, Wow, I really enjoyed that week. I can't wait to hit the ground running next week. And you know, I would say, I've got a brand new client, and he was telling me that, but we're working on capacity with him and his team, and I started talking about electric cars. And, you know, we have to work capacity from two sides. One is that, yeah, we have to have the environment and the systems and the head count and everything to be able to handle the work that we're doing. Or, you know, if it's just us, we need to have the flexibility to really rise to an occasion and operate at a greater output for short periods of time, or whatever that is. Yeah. Okay, that's your personal capacity. The next thing is, is your job and the people you work with and the quality of your team filling your bucket as you're doing that. And I said, it's like regenerative breaking. It's like the difference between having a an EV that can climb a hill and and handle those dips and yaws in the road to one that can do that and regenerate in the process when it's going down the other side. So that's what we're building into his practice. And I'm pretty happy with that metaphor. Actually, I'm gonna keep using that sucker. But, when you are face to face with clients who have these demands and they've got a lot at stake, what are some of the strategies that you suggest that can help them manage their responsibilities to themselves?

Erin 13:39
I mean, the best thing is, if you have control of your own schedule, I had one one person 10am every single morning, whether she was working out with me or whether she was just going for a walk around downtown, that was her time, and she blocked it off, and her entire team knew that 10am to 11am is her time. And I mean, that's an imperfect world that you can just be really hard headed about putting it in your schedule. I have another client that we discovered that he is a better parent, a better spouse when he takes a break between the work and returning home, so rather than sitting in a car, or like, you know, on the bus, takes time to walk every single day. If he can't walk, he, you know, comes for a workout with me, goes to the gym, but yeah, when he is working from home because a lot of us have hybrid models these days, he still takes that half an hour to 45 minutes to break up his work life and his home life, which I think is amazing. Yeah, recognizing that it doesn't have to be big, right? Sometimes it's a 15 minute walk in the morning before you have coffee, or while you're having coffee, pick one ritual that you're already doing and see if you can make it active. 

Tim 14:59
Julie Freedman Smith, she's our parenting and family associate at TWE, I believe it was she who introduced me to the term transition time. Both for the kids, when you're going to ask them do something, you got to give them a bit of transition time. You got to help them switch gears. But also for me as a dad, I had to have that. And interestingly enough, I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to an old client. I mean, he's been around forever. We still coach, but we're more friends now than anything, and he does what you just said. He'll stop, and he will sit in the car and transition for like, 10 or 15 minutes. I think that's a really good strategy that he has. He's able to then, like, really clear his slate before he goes in and dads, but why not walk like, why not walk for that 15 minutes? Or, you know, what would I'm gonna suggest that to him? What would, what would the net benefit be if he did the exact same thing, but just didn't do it in his car? I mean–

Erin 15:58
Make it active. 

Tim 16:00
Totally. Just, you know–

Erin 16:02
Just a small thing–

Tim 16:04
Little Erin Ashbacher boost to your day. 

Erin 16:06
Right? Well, hey, you know, I have a client who's recovering from an ankle injury, and I'm like, you brush your teeth, how many times a day? Twice day? Okay, stand on one foot while you're brushing your teeth, right? Just a little thing that can start to have a bigger impact–

Tim 16:21
Sounds familiar? Erin.

Erin 16:26
I love finding ways to tweak your routine, right? It's already there. Let's add one thing. 

Tim 16:33
That's awesome because the next question I was going to ask you was incorporating small little habits. So let's talk about that standing on one leg, standing alone one leg would be a total gimme. Like, why can't you do that when you're standing on two legs? You got an option, right or left, right? What would be some other give us more. Come on. Give me. Give me. Give me. Give me. Give me. 

Erin 16:54
Thanks. One of the things that I gave one of my other clients was she had to get down to a filing cabinet. She's an older, older client. And I just like, instead of getting down onto your knees to search through that, like, is it possible to squat down to get there, right? Just changing the way that we're moving in the office even, right? Instead of using the stool all the time, maybe we stand up and reach and kind of get a little off balance in a safe way. I love making my meetings with clients and my meetings with friends more active, too. So I love a walking meeting, or if the weather permits, getting out on our bikes and taking like a nice cruisy bike side by side. We have beautiful pathways in the city, so makes it easy. Yeah. 

Tim 17:40
My friends over at OSP, we just had the OSpluza, which they have done every year. I was there as a speaker for one of their very first ones. I think I was there in 2018, I want to say, but anyway, every year they've got this great event that is such an expression of their culture. But you're always moving. Last year we did a scavenger hunt around the zoo. So we did professional development for a day and a half. And then scavenger hunt, holy moly, it was a blast. And then this year– 

Erin 18:10
Running around the zoo? 

Tim 18:14
You know, it was crazy. It was timed. And then, and we put in a lot of steps. And then, and I was on new pegs, right, like I that was one year into my into my knee surgery. And so, man, I was gained because there was no way I would have been able to do that a year before that. And then this year, it was bowling. So it's funny, I thought of you during that, because we were, we went to the the bowling alley, and I had to put on those shoes. And I thought, Okay, I better do like, a full straight bend, and really bend this out. Because, as Erin knows, I mean, some of you might have heard this. I mean, I suffered a fall saving a hamster. It's a long story. Ended up with, you know, nine to 10 months of spinal damage, Hamster related spinal damage. So anyways, a little stiff. Let's just say this my form was coming back. But, you know, when you've got big hands and you've got to use a double x, not a regular bowler, but you've got to use a double x, old ball, they tend to be, you know, 14 to 15 pounds. So you're swinging this 14 to 15 pound thing. And if you've got any self respect, you know, you're going to do your best to do you know, even though it's just casual, you're gonna do your best. I'm fairly competitive anyway, so I was stretching beforehand, thinking Erin would tell me this. 

Erin 19:29
My other favorite hack is staying hydrated. So especially if someone is coming into the gym and working out, lifting weights, and they're fairly new to it, or they're new to it again, obviously water is going to help us recover, and it's going to help, but even if we're sitting at our desk and we're not sore, just drinking lots of water forces us to get up and walk the office and go to the bathroom and then walk back. Yeah, so I'm a huge pusher of staying hydrated, which research shows that Staying hydrated also plays a vital role in our brain function and in our concentration. 

Tim 20:09
Tell me this. I've tried many I still, I mean, I track most of the time. I have done the big jug thing. You know, I try to drink as much water as I can, but it's what's your personal favourite hack? And I mean, I'm still, I'm always looking for tricks, because I will forget to drink.

Erin 20:30
Right, if you’re a visual person, having it right in front of you is pretty good. But I have clients that I set a reminder for them, I'm like, you should be drinking you know, one cup, 250 milliliters every 15 minutes. So I'm a sipper, but like, hey, if all you need is a 15-minute ding on your phone to tell you to drink some water, go for it. 

Tim 20:53
Yeah, I'm not a sipper. I'm a guzzler. Like, I we've always had, uh, no TV where we eat dinner. That was always a rule for my wife and I and our kids, and we always have a pitcher of water on the table, and it's always full, and we often without thinking it, start off the meal with all of us sort of pouring a glass of water, because it's kind of nice to have people pour water for you, and then I always drain it, like I drain just I but that's just the way. I think it comes from working in the kitchens or something, when we used to get really hot and you would just or planting trees because–

Erin 21:32
You have time, take it. 

Tim 21:34
Well, and you couldn't cool yourself any other way. So you're using this hydration as almost a cooling tool. But yeah, no, I'm not polite when it comes to I just it's kind of a race. I don't know if it's kind of a personal thing, but it's like–

Erin 21:47
I will finish my glass first. 

Tim 21:49
I rarely put down a full glass or even a glass with any water left in it. 

Erin 21:55
The other trick I have is that if you know, you're a tea sipper or a coffee sipper, that you always have a one-to-one ratio. I’m pretty hard about that, because caffeine is, uh, not great. It’s okay, in small quantities, but people are drinking. I drink no water at all, but I drink two cups or two pots of coffee a day; maybe, switch that. 

Tim 22:18
This sounding familiar again, Erin.

Erin 22:18
It’s getting a bit personal. 

Tim 22:20
It is, although my dentist always said, always have water when you're having tea, like, always order a coffee in a water, or always order a tea in a water, if for no other reason than the fact that you need to rinse that stuff off your teeth. Right? So all good tips. I'd be really interested when we publish this; if you've already listened, go to the posting for this on my LinkedIn account, and enter your best water hacks. And then we'll put those on a giveaway, and we'll make sure everybody gets, we’ll doing one of in our newsletters. Hey, we'll put, you know, here's your top 20 water hacks, goldfish bowls, not just pretty, but delicious. Anyway. Cool. All right, let's keep going. So we've got a lot of good reasons why a person should be exercising in order to increase their capacity and recharge their brain and be resilient, and the data is fairly sound that this is valuable. The one thing I wanted to ask you about was this, and that is, you'd mentioned that you had leaders that have teams that are supportive of them going out for their walk, things like this. I would throw in the middle of all this that you're either feeling guilt or shame or discomfort or fear trying to take time for yourself and work out, or you feel like you're inconveniencing your staff, or you can't leave your team alone, or your days are far too full. You might be in an environment that simply will not afford you the time, and so look for design changes that you can make. You know, how do you increase the productivity of your staff so that you can take some time off? Are you doing everything for everybody else and covering other people's work? Or do you need to shuffle how things are done, or even the people that are doing it? Don't subsidize your team or organizational health, with your life, with your own health, because it's just not a good deal, and it's so often really unnecessary, and that terrible shit tornado that just tears us down into a vicious cycle, right? 

Erin 24:33
I like to always say, don't be the person that if you win the lottery tomorrow, your entire team is going to fall apart, right? I used to say, get hit by a bus, but I'd like to be much more positive than that, so I'm going to say, win the lottery, right? So make sure that you're giving your team all the tools that they can be successful, and so that you can guilt free take that time, yeah. 

Tim 24:58
Well, and also so that they can take that time. Right? Oh, and that raises a really interesting thing that you and I talked about last week, and that was, we're not just talking about professionals and people who are leading in an organizational capacity. We also have people that have new roles thrust upon them, right? And this could be, you know, you've got kids going to school, okay, we're just entered the school year, now you got a whole brand new way of parenting. You might be a stay at home parent and you need to you're at a whole different level. My son just he's had a knee injury, but we just found out that he's going to have to have meniscal repair. So my wife now is gearing up to, like, have to be a caregiver and focus on him for three to five months, because he's going to need more support. And you and I were talking about that in terms of the caregiver, whether you've got a, you know, a parent or I'm of the age where the parents are getting sick, talk a little bit about that. 

Erin 25:53
I mean, we very easily when we were sitting on a plane. It's like, you know, you put your oxygen mask on first before you help others. And that concept rings true when it comes to our everyday life, but realistically, it's very easy to grab the oxygen mask when it's physically right in front of your face. When we take a look at putting on our own oxygen mask in our lives, it's much more difficult to understand those things, and there's tons of research that shows that caregivers are at higher risk for physical and mental health issues. They're at higher risk for sleep problems, and they're at higher risk for chronic conditions such as high blood pressure. So if those caregivers can think about being preventative and taking care of their mental and physical health before those things happen, then they can be better caregivers, right? Take care of yourself, take care of others. And so yeah, knowing that it's not selfish to take that time and carve out that so that then you can be better for those people that you're helping to take care of. So in your wife's case, your son, right, she needs to take care of her own physical and mental health so that she can help him when he's recovering. 

Tim 27:05
Another client, their spouse, is going through a total knee replacement, like I did, so they've been asking me questions about it, and they're gearing up to be their caregiver for eight months. My advice to them was, don't just think about being a support to the other person. You as the caregiver, need to think about your caregivers. So can you increase your own support? Can you afford cleaners or something? Or can you make, can you make life a little bit easier? Or can you let yourself off the hook when it when it comes to, you know, putting out fancy meals, and instead, you know, opt for something that you can produce on mass or whatnot, or just ask for help, you know. 

Erin 27:43
Wait, you can ask for help. Tim? 

Tim 27:46
You can, you can risk some, some questionable lasagnas. But, yeah, you can, you can ask for help. All right, cool. So we've, so what have we covered here? If I think back to everything you've said, Erin, we're sitting at this time of the year where we've got a lot of things changing. People have new roles thrust upon them, new responsibilities, and they're feeling fatigued, and like so much in business, you know, we have to not think about the cost of taking time for ourselves. We have to think about it as an investment, and we have to say these things will pay back if we can just get started, even if that's small. Hydration is an easy place to start. Standing on one foot is an easy place to start, doing a squat instead of bending over is an easy place to start. Pretending you're tying your shoes but actually stretching before you bowl at a team-building event is an easy place to start. You know, make it easy, like, do the easy thing. Do the thing that doesn't always feel like it's the big, fancy new thing. Just do the easy thing. 

Erin 28:56
I have a shout out to my dearest friend who this year, started every single morning with five sun salutations. So basically, just touch your toes, go into a plank, stand up. For those of you who don't do yoga and it's a two minute practice and it's made a huge difference in their lives. 

Tim 29:18
Yeah, I think that's true, and I'll give a shout out quickly to you. You know, when I was coming back from this tkr, you said 20 minutes, Tim, just every day, an intentional 20 minutes. And I've managed to keep that up, regardless of what's been happening, and that, if nothing else is just says I did it. I did my 20 minutes. You know, even if it's not always stellar, but check I'm gonna start doing–

Erin 29:42
Something is better than nothing. 

Tim 29:44
You know. And how often do we say, if it's not perfect, we're not gonna do it? I mean, barf, all right, cool. It's been great. So as I always ask, we've covered all this ground. If people were to take one thing away, if you were to see people transform in one way, if you had to ask it a simpler way, if you had one wish for people who are listening today, what would it be? 

Erin 30:10
Take the disruption in the season or in the schedule as an opportunity to reassess and add in something new or change what you're doing, right? All summer long, I was on my bike, and it was amazing. And now that it's fall, it's getting a little bit cooler, and taking it as an opportunity to reassess my activity schedule and get back into the gym and lift some weights again. So it's okay to do that. 

Tim 30:32
I love that. You know, pop the bubble. Change doesn't have to be a threat, right? It can be an opportunity. Cool now to continue on to our tradition. If you were to lob a question at our next guest, not exactly sure who that would be, why don't you fire one at me? 

Erin 30:53
My question is, how do you stop your big, juicy challenge that you've been dreaming of doing from sitting on the shelf. How do you anchor that? Get into it? 

Tim 31:05
Okay, so we've got some guests coming up that I think are going to be perfect to throw that at, so I'm looking forward to that. Okay, thank you very much. Erin, before we go tell people what you've got going on, anything you'd like to share that you're excited about.

Erin 31:24
Starting with Cochran minor hockey this fall, doing some team training. Very excited for their off ice season coming up. Yeah, just looking forward to a few changes in my personal life that maybe I'll share next time. 

Tim 31:37
Yay, maybe you'll share next time. I'm going to throw one in there too, and that is that you've already helped several of the people that are my clients. And so if you're already doing leadership development, or you're already doing personal coaching or something like this, layer in, it's a great time to layer in the physical aspect, especially if it's the number one thing that bugs you, if it's the thing that's really got you down, no amount of professional coaching is going to overcome grief of a bad physical situation. Start with the biggest constraint, right? And if that's your sense of self, at least work at it in parallel, which is what I'm so happy for you to be on the team. So thanks so much. All right. Well, I think that wraps us up. It's so awesome to have you back. 

Erin 32:29
It's great to be back. Tim, thank you. 

Tim 32:31
Okay, well, we look forward to talking to you, hopefully right before the new year, if not right early in 25. 

Erin 32:37
Sounds great. 

Tim 32:39
Listen for updates and look for Erin to be offering in some writing and some posts as we move forward throughout the year. If you want to follow us, you're welcome to sign up to our newsletter, and in the meantime, Erin, go get him.

Tim 32:56
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in, in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

My first management experience came at the age of 18, running the produce and floral department of a busy grocery store. Up to and including that point, grocery taught me that keeping the fruit fresh and the flowers vibrant was just one part of the job. The real challenge was navigating shrinkage and waste - and differentiating between what was systematic and what was genuinely unexpected (like the creatures that hitched rides in shipments of tropical produce.)

I'll never forget when as a clerk at 16, I opened a box of bananas to find a tropical bat nestled between the bunches. It was still alive, and clicking angrily. Then there were the mornings we’d find massive spiders—bigger than my hand—crawling out of the crates. More than once, we found a black widow or brown recluse lurking in the fruit or flowers from BC, sending the team scrambling and turning a routine stocking job into a full-on arachnophobia episode.

But it wasn’t all terror. We found some humour in the situation, too. Cockroaches became prized racing hounds. My favourite memory might be when we painted numbers on their backs with whiteout and held impromptu cockroach races for a week during our coffee breaks. We all cheered as the little competitors scurried across a miniature racetrack—the store would bond over coffee break races.

Through all of this, I developed a hunger for managing waste. Nothing teaches you more about lost value than having to watch things rot or become damaged and having to tip hundreds of dollars of potential profit into the dumpster. Little did I know that guilt would lead me to a career in leadership, as operational efficiency would become the basis of my education and a pillar of my work and brand in leadership and organizational development - (With an Ops mindset, I don't do leadership or team development for clients unless I can first establish an ROI.)

My time in Grocery, then working as a chef, and into my first regional manager position in food manufacturing all gave me lessons that feel very relevant today, where many are feeling the pinch of high grocery prices and looking for ways to save money on their weekly shop.

The Waste From Field To Fork
One of the biggest lessons I took away from that first management job was that waste—whether from bats in bananas or fruit that spoiled before it was sold—was a killer of value. The same is true in our households. While bats and spiders are unlikely to invade your home, food waste is a daily reality for many of us.

Recent studies show that 50% of produce is lost between field and fork, and nearly 25-30% of purchased fruits and vegetables in the average household spoil before they can be eaten. Strawberries, for example, are notorious for their short shelf life, with many of us buying them only to toss out a fuzzy, mouldy mess a few days later. In fact, strawberries have been identified as one of the most commonly wasted fruits in Canada.

This food waste isn’t just an inconvenience—it’s money down the drain. Think of it this way: if a quarter of the fresh food you buy spoils, you’re effectively throwing away 25% of your grocery budget. In today’s economy, where prices for basic necessities are skyrocketing, that’s a painful loss for many.

What’s in Your Compost Bucket?
Next time you toss those limp carrots or that bag of slimy spinach into the compost, take a moment to think about what it cost you - and the waste economy you're part of. Those spoiled groceries aren’t just compost—they represent part of your hard-earned money. And while we can’t always prevent spoilage, there are ways to reduce it, potentially saving hundreds of dollars a year personally.

Four Simple Strategies to Stretch Your Grocery Budget
Spoilage is big business, and there are incentives to buy too much…

Here are a few lessons I’ve carried with me from those early days managing produce (and the occasional spider encounter) that can help you make your grocery budget go further:

1. Economies of scale are lost if waste is high Buying in bulk seems like a good deal, but it’s only a bargain if you actually eat everything before it spoils. Take a realistic look at how much fresh produce your household consumes each week and resist the urge to buy large quantities just because it seems cheaper per unit. Smaller, right-sized portions might save you more in the long run. As a former chef, I make most of what my family eats from scratch. I'm a huge fan of purchasing 30lb bags of onions because they tend to be only double the price of a 3lb bag. However, it's important to have a plan. Splitting large purchases with neighbors is an awesome idea.
2. Manage Your Inventory Like a Pro Just like I had to carefully manage the stock in my produce department to avoid waste or in my cooler as a chef, you can do the same in your kitchen. Keep an eye on what you already have in the fridge and pantry before making your shopping list. Try meal planning around items you need to use up first. By rotating your food and using older items first, you can reduce the chance of spoilage.
3. Learn How to Store Produce Properly Some simple storage techniques can extend the life of your produce. For example, strawberries can last longer if you give them a quick vinegar rinse before refrigerating them, and herbs can be kept fresh by storing them in water like a bouquet. Understanding how to store different types of produce can make a big difference in how long they last.
4. Buy Just Enough, Just in Time. Unless you live somewhere remote, adopt a more European habit of visiting the market to buy only enough for what you will cook, process, or eat while it’s at its peak. Smaller, routine visits to the grocery store or market can help ensure you’re using ingredients at their best and reducing spoilage from over-buying

There are physical and mental benefits to this approach.

• If you process food right after you bring it home, you'll have fresh veg to grab for a snack. (A professional kitchen makes meals to order... they don't prep meals to order, it's inefficient and sucks much of the joy out of it.)
• When you cook food at its peak, cook 1-2 meals extra. Then manage the finished product. Label, freeze and have nutritious food on hand when you need a night off without having to use Skip uber-eats, or Doordash. (I always recommend not experimenting when cooking in bulk - play your greatest hits - only the known crowd pleasers!)
• Live near a neighbourhood store, buying small more frequently is a great excuse to grab a backpack and get in some steps. (If they don't have your favourite regular products, ASK. they will usually bring it in special if they know they have a customer.)

The Real Gold
So, where’s the gold? It’s in your compost bucket—or rather, it’s in not filling that bucket with spoiled food. Reducing food waste before you hit the checkout is one of the simplest, most effective ways to stretch your grocery budget, especially in these times of inflation. And the best part? You don’t need to make drastic changes. Small steps like right-sizing your shopping, managing your home inventory, and storing produce properly can have an immediate impact.

In 2024, when grocery prices are a struggle for many families, finding savings can feel like a lifeline. And just like in my early days managing produce, where we had to make every shipment count, you can do the same at home. With a few thoughtful changes, you’ll find there’s more value in your groceries than meets the eye—sometimes, even a bit of gold in your compost bucket.

Takeaway: Spotting Waste in Your Team or Business
"OK, Tim... why are you (a leadership coach) talking about this on Linked In?"

Anywhere in your business or team, the easiest place to spot waste is where it’s collected. In the grocery world, it’s the compost or trash bin. at your desk, it might be unread emails, declined meetings, or tardiness. For teams, it could be process conflicts, high turnover, or frequent corrective actions. Measuring waste where it accumulates is the first step to saving time, energy, and money. Then you can trace them back to the roots and take action.

We complain about grocery bills... we complain about work - and yes there are factors beyond our control. But a critical element in reducing waste is taking ownership of what we can. Much of the waste we assume is a cost of doing business (or a cost of running a home) is elective. You have more choice and leverage than you might realize - so use it.

I hope my reflects help you not only save on your grocery bill but also get your spidey sense tingling about waste in other areas of your life and work.


Sources:

1. USDA: Reducing Food Waste
2. NRDC Food Waste Study: Wasted Food Report
3. WRAP (UK) Household Food Waste in Canada
4. National Center for Home Food Preservation

Episode Summary: In this episode, Tim Sweet explores the challenge of authenticity in leadership. He discusses the importance of truth and integrity, even when feeling overwhelming pressure to compromise. Tim elaborates on how most fears stem from ignorance or fallacy and explains that facing fear, embracing discomfort, and staying aligned with reality are essential to building trust with others and oneself.

Episode Notes
In this episode, Tim Sweet delves into one of the most crucial issues in leadership: having the courage to remain authentic. He explores why the truth can be uncomfortable and how, in our society, we are incentivized to avoid disturbing the peace, even if it means advocating for what is right. This causes a tendency to sugarcoat or omit details. Doing so may seem easier in the short term but can lead to long-term problems.
Tim introduces the concept of the "fear barrier" and explains how fear influences our decision-making, potentially causing us to compromise our values. He shares personal stories and insights into why embracing truth and building trust is crucial. Tim also provides actionable strategies for embracing uncomfortable realities, staying authentic, and leading with integrity.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Dune - Paul Atreidis Quote
• Game of Thrones - Jon Snow Quote

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Transcript
Tim 00:01
Many people would rather stay in the bubble where that narrative can be controlled, where they can keep telling themselves that story of absolutely everything is fine, and remember, we're not talking about things being wildly out of whack here. Often we're talking about just a few percentage points of your life. But those few percentage points matter, and they're held in balance of everything else good that we're doing. 

Tim 00:24
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 40 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim 00:56
Well, hi, everybody. Today, we're going to tackle something crucial yet often sidestepped in leadership circles. The challenge of staying real, of staying authentic, of having the courage to embrace the truth and integrity, even when the pressure to compromise or to capitulate feels overwhelming. Think about the last time you faced a difficult decision. It wasn't just uncomfortable. It was unsettling. Maybe it was one of these moments where you felt compelled to ignore certain facts, to be part of the team, to accept a vision, to toe the company line. You might have justified a strategy or even the very purpose of a business, all while something deep inside you, the ground that you were standing on felt not as solid as you would like. It's in these moments when our options often feel limited, we want to be inspiring to create a sense of right, that we're here for a good purpose. We want to avoid giving power to focus that oppose our company's interests, but in doing so, sometimes we end up compromising a part of ourselves. Maybe you tackle the situation head-on, or maybe you sidestepped it, omitting a key detail here or there, spinning the situation a little just to make it a little more palatable. Well, it's in these moments, small or large, that we can start to feel like we're selling out. We're jumping on a bandwagon. We're playing a popularity game, and let's be honest, that can feel cheap and sleazy, and conflicted, and downright tiresome. In fact, it's exhausting. But what if there was a different way, a way that doesn't involve you compromising who you are or what you stand for, and this is where we're going to talk about what it looks like to really walk a path of truth and integrity, and courage. And I know all of you listening are good people, and you're all trying to do the right thing, and you are all brave people, but it's even in these little moments where we have to compromise that we can find a great deal of exhaustion. I have to tell you that this path of truth and integrity, and courage was one that I had to make a decision around several years ago when I decided to get out of regular management roles. Part of that was because I wanted to be beyond having to forward any particular campaign. So, I made a conscious decision that I wouldn't compromise just so I would have to be involved in that political space. It wasn't that I wasn't good at it. It's just that I found it exhausting. I also recognized that the people in businesses that I held to the highest esteem often were those that were able to be Maverick. They were able to say no, they were able to defy convention. And in those moments where they were living in that extreme truth, that risky truth, that's where they really shone as leaders, and that's who I decided to emulate as much of my daily life around from a professional perspective as I could. Now, look as a consultant and a coach, it's a bit easier because I'm paid to stand outside of a machine. In fact, there's many times when I'm brought into organizations or coaching relationships, precisely because they need a dose of reality. I'm often called a new set of eyes or an unbiased perspective. But in truth, it's simply a reset. It's a return to facts. It's establishing a through line, and those through lines have to be supported by data and analysis and reality if they're really going to stand up. One of these times when this clarity often hits home for people is right now, we've just come off of summer vacation here in North America, and during vacation, when we're away from the office, free from a Daily Grind and disconnected from usual dogma or pressures or community, you know, triggers and reinforcements, we start to sense our own truth more clearly. It's in these quiet moments when you might be driving home from the lake, or you might be mowing the lawn, or you might be just sitting around and enjoying a drink at the end of the day. When you're not surrounded by that constant hum of work, and you're able to disconnect just long enough to look at your life from an outside perspective that you can see things for what they really are. And it's here that people find themselves questioning, have I always lived true to who I am? Some people avoid vacations, even, because that step outside of reality is too uncomfortable. That step outside of the rat race, where they realize just how messed up their situation is, really makes them feel helpless. Many people would rather stay in the bubble, where that narrative can be controlled, where they can keep telling themselves that story of absolutely everything is fine. And remember, we're not talking about things being wildly out of whack here. Often we're talking about just a few percentage points of your life, but those few percentage points matter, and they are held in balance of everything else good that we're doing. So, they'd rather stay in the bubble. And let's face it, some organizations even prefer to keep people in the office. In fact, this is one of the reasons we're seeing why people are pressured to be back in the office. Why? Because they're in that bubble. They're where we can control the narrative. They're where we can have a singular reality that is focused around and justified by where we are in the world. So, as people that are out there wanting to do well, wanting to inject the universe with good stuff. Why do we find ourselves in positions that compromise our values? Why do we work contrary to those facts, even in small ways? Well, that's what we're going to dive in today. 

Tim 07:12
I'd like to introduce you to a concept called the fear barrier. 

[Start of Clip from Dune 07:16]
Paul Atreides: Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me. Where the fear is gone, there will be nothing; only I will remain.
[End of Clip from Dune 07:37]

Tim 07:38
Let's talk a little bit about fear because it's at the heart of why we make compromises. It's at the heart of why change is difficult. It's at the heart of why offices will polarize, why some people will excel, and other people are held down. And it may not be your fear, it may be the fear of others, but fear is at the heart of it because so many things come from lack of knowledge, lack of perspective, and fear. And fear takes many forms. It can take the form of avoidance. It can take the form of anger. It can take the form of our struggles. It is a force. It's what keeps us internally from speaking up, from challenging a status quo, from standing firm for our beliefs. It's what has us a fear of losing our place in an organization or losing our advantage in life. It has us thinking we might be seen as difficult. We might be seen as that squeaky wheel. We might have a fear of rocking the boat, but this fear doesn't just keep us silent, it also builds walls. And we build these barriers up to protect ourselves from the discomfort of facing the truth itself, from a risk of being that one who speaks up when everybody else says the right thing, or at the very least, is quiet. It's easier to go along, to nod in agreement, to sidestep the odd difficult conversation, just to get things done. But here's the thing, these barriers don't just keep the truth out, they keep us trapped. They're at the heart of why we have problems with equality in the workplace and inclusion in the workplace, that's all based in fear. We become trapped, as a company and even as a society, in a cycle of avoidance where pressure builds and builds until something breaks. It's that breaking point that often comes at the worst possible time when the stakes are highest. It's at that point where the costs are greatest and little decisions come back to haunt us. This is what the fear barrier is. It's that wall we use to shield ourselves from uncomfortable truths we don't want to face. And behind that fear is an imbalance. It's a conflict between personal courage, we sometimes call it vital courage and moral courage. Personal or vital courage, is the push for ourselves to succeed, to look after ourselves, to really fulfill the life that's important to us as individuals, to lead, to achieve our goals, to be who we want to be. And moral courage, likewise, is also noble. It's what pushes us to do right in groups, on behalf of society, on behalf of the organizations we choose to align ourselves. We have several of them. They can be our job. They can be clubs or sporting teams, or churches that we're involved in outside of work, and therefore we have to stand up on both sides of these things, demonstrating courage on both sides. And when we discount one, immediately, we're thrown into imbalance. When these two forms of courage are out of balance, we find ourselves making decisions that might feel safe in the short term, but long term, they have consequences. We get ourselves into situations that we can't easily undo, it's where the challenge lies, and it's where we need to be most vigilant. I remember that quote in Game of Thrones, where at the end of season seven, Jon Snow has to make this impassioned speech: When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything, then there are no more answers, only better and better lies, and the lies won't help us in this fight.

[Start of Clip from Game of Thrones 11:09]
Tyrion Lannister: But have you ever considered learning how to lie every now and then? Just a bit?
Jon Snow: I’m not going to swear an oath I can't uphold. Talk about my father, if you want, tell me that's the attitude that got him killed. But when enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything; then there are no more answers, only better and better lies, and lies won't help us in this fight.
Tyrion Lannister: That is indeed a problem. The more immediate problem is that we're fucked.
[End of Clip from Game of Thrones 12:00]

Tim 12:01
This little quote, albeit fictional, helps us get to the very heart of what we're discussing here, the danger of letting untruths become part of our leadership and our cultures and our lives. There's a danger to omitting the truth. Let's get into this idea about omission, not outright lying, but the things we choose not to say. Omitting a truth, downplaying a fact, can sometimes feel like a safer option. We're not technically lying, right? We're just not telling the whole story. We're not kicking the hornet's nest. We're not poking the bear. But this, too, is a form of self-deception, and when we realize that we are in that place, we know we're compromising something. When we emit key facts, we're not just keeping things smooth; we're creating a version of reality that is there to suit our needs and to maintain a balance and prevent a tension or a conflict. It's what protects us, it's what keeps everybody comfortable, it's what makes us nice to work with. But comfort is not the same as safety. In fact, often, short-term comfort sacrifices long-term safety. What happens when these omitted truths finally come to light? What happens when that house of cards that we've now built comes crashing down because we chose an easy path rather than the right one? The truth we've worked so hard to build over all of our careers, what we've built ourselves up as, can sometimes vanish in an instant, leaving us and our teams to scramble and pick up the pieces. There's that famous saying that it takes 20 years to build a reputation and only five minutes to dash it, and it's really clear in our current media environment how quickly this can happen when uncomfortable truths come to light. As leaders, our credibility is absolutely everything, and people look at us to be honest, and forthright and stable, to be the ones who are going to speak truth, even when it's hard. When we sidestep, when we choose spin, we erode that credibility bit by bit, and once it's gone, it is incredibly hard to rebuild. One little secret here is most people enter a relationship waiting to be disappointed. They don't talk about it very often because it doesn't seem very amiable. They will think this very, very briefly, and then they'll move past it. But there's a small part of them for the rest of your relationship that might be looking for indications that you are that thing that they feared at one point. We're not talking about personal family relationships here. We're talking about our dynamics, where you are the person that they need to report to, and oh, boy, would they be worried about taking a job where somebody might be tyrannical. This is where reality comes in. This is where reality is your single greatest ally, but it can also be a very, very rule-keeper. If you're aligned with reality, it'll support you; it'll guide you, it'll help you build something strong and fact-based and enduring. But if you're not, it's only a matter of time before the universe gives you a slap that you will not forget. 

Tim 15:27
So, if this is true, why do people sugarcoat things? Well, simple answer is, sugarcoating feels good, especially in the moment. It's easier to soften the edges, to make the tough stuff a little more palatable, and often we're rewarded for it. We tell ourselves we're doing things to keep the peace and to protect others, and to maintain morale, and indeed, we're often rewarded for that. In fact, there can even be performance reviews at the end of the year where somebody says, you know, you are so good at keeping it level, at maintaining morale, at making sure everybody's included. But deep down, we might know that that is about protecting ourselves, our reputation, and protecting others in the absence of that thing that needed to be challenged. Being fluent when we're doing this, and especially having a practice where you're able to see where you are being positively reinforced for maintaining a short-term piece, short-term gratification, versus long-term gratification, where you are buying into a pitch that things need to just slow down, where we need to not share so much, where we need to keep someone on the outside. All of these things can ring a bell in us, a little bell that, if we listen to, we realize that you know what, this is the easy road. It's not the right road, but that temporary relief that comes from sugarcoating things, spinning things, just that, it's temporary. It feels super good in the moment, and it's trained to be there. Whole cultures have built mechanisms within them to make sure that people toe the line. But eventually, that truth catches up, and when it does, the fallout is often worse. Maybe it just takes someone we care about out. Maybe it takes us out. Maybe it takes an entire department or entire company, or sometimes an entire industry, through the mud. We know this. We've seen it happen before, and little spins do not make an untenuous situation. We shouldn't be overdramatic where we say that any form of truth carries the same weight. So, why do we do it? Because we're trying to deal with short-term discomfort, we might get ourselves into a long-term problem. Now, it's not always as dramatic as losing a job or losing a company, but what I want you to think about is even the small stuff takes energy. It takes energy, and it sucks it out of you, right? You have to maintain that thing. You have to shore it up because reality isn't shoring it up for you. You have to be the one. And it's like having to put a band-aid and duct tape on a wound that really needs time to heal, or it needs to be, you know, set properly, but instead, we just keep managing it, and it might cover it up for a while, but it's not healing anything. So, what happens when reality finally catches up with us? It's not pretty, and it's in those moments that we've been dodging when things can feel like they all come crashing down if you think about when a team is in crisis, if you think about when there's an emergency, you can usually step back through things using a five wise methodology, a root cause analysis, something where we get back to a decision point, when a decision was poorly made, and nine times out of 10, you're going to find that that decision was bereft of facts and it might have been self-serving in some way.

Tim 19:11
That harsh drop when everything resets and all of the mistakes become laid bare, is fertile ground for broken relationships, failed careers, losses of trust. We see entire project teams who have dedicated years of their lives to making something come over the line, lose all respect and credibility in the 11th hour. We see long-standing institutions lose credibility when they're not able to uphold fundamental truths, usually because we were avoiding something uncomfortable. Whatever form it takes, these resets are a wake-up call, and like the big reset, that can be very, very disturbing, to say the least, we can look out for small resets, small little indicators that, wait a minute, we might be canoeing up a stream. We might be fighting a current here, and that current might be the truth. It's in these times that we need to take a moment, breathe and assemble our team and our peers and say, are we on the right path here, folks? But the longer we paddle against a current, the longer we're expending energy, and when reality finally catches up, we may not have the energy to maneuver properly and to write our course. Those moments where we have to take a breath and reset and ask ourselves why we're here and where is this all headed, can actually be the start of something better. Remember, the absence of fact does not necessarily mean ignorance. It just means that something is off, so it might be having to go out and make sure that we're properly assessing the situation and that we're engaging in a discernment conversation, that we've asked the right questions, that we've got everybody around the table, and that moment, that little scare, can be the catalyst that pushes us to embrace the truth. So, it's not about always being on and being omniscient and knowing everything. It's not about being infallible. It's about learning and really getting keyed to say, are we paying attention to the feedback we're getting from the decisions that we're making? This has never been more important than it is in your own individual career. Remember that balance between personal and moral courage. Well, in the personal courage realm, we have to have the ability to, when we're feeling like something is off, stop and say, how did I get here? Why am I here? What am I actually feeling and what am I going to do with that? Then we can discern where are we going to go from here. When we start to embrace this power of fact and reality and any kind of time we feel that we're slightly off some truth, it's a chance for us to lead our careers. It's a chance for us to lead our teams better. 

Tim 22:16
It starts with this commitment, a commitment to say, I'm going to face the truth head-on whenever I see it, no matter how uncomfortable. And in this case, when a team supports this, when you have a culture of leading through fact and truth, it becomes very easy to shift people. It's actually harder to shift individuals in their career, because they tend to have much more complex, unspoken reliances and pressures on them. If you are a parent in a family and you are a breadwinner and you have commitments, well, you might shelve a truth about how you're feeling about your career, how you're feeling about how you spend your days, in order to just be a good mom or be a good dad, to just make your commitment to other things that are extraneous, that really can cloud things, and that's when it's most important to say there's got to be a way that we can balance all of these things together so that we can get what we want and be who we want at the same time. It's not about being perfect. In fact, if anything, it's about embracing our imperfections. We have to become fluent and sensitive again when we're tempted to omit and sugarcoat things, when we're tempted to avoid a hoarder path, when we do this, when we become fluent in that, something amazing happens, we start to build trust, not just with others, but with ourselves. When people compromise, when they force themselves into a situation, you have to remember that one of the relationships you're violating is with yourself, and if you constantly disappoint yourself, why would you love that person? If you're the hardest person on you that there is, if you're the one that gets you into deeper trouble than anyone else, if you're the one that promises things and pulls them back, why would you want to trust that person? It can create a real resentment for the decisions that you feel you have to make, and resenting yourself is a crippling vaquitas type of circle that can just bring you down into some of the most terrible lows that you're going to feel. The antidote has to be truth. The antidote has to be fact. 

Tim 24:44
So, there's a challenge before you, a challenge to stay real, both for yourself and for the people you serve. There's a challenge to embrace this truth and this integrity, and it's not easy, and it requires courage, and it requires self-reflection, and it requires you taking a moment to listen to podcasts like this, or other podcasts that allow you to pull yourself out of your day-to-day grind, of your family relationships, of the mind F's that you're giving yourself, and just look at your life objectively and look at your roles objectively. It requires that willingness to do that pull yourself out, stop doing the work, and start looking at the work, seeing the work, working on the work. It requires that willingness to face uncomfortable realities that you might have a person on your team you do not trust, you will not promote, you will never give them something to make them successful, but you're avoiding a tough conversation or even a dismissal because that would make you a bad person. It might cause you to face a harsh reality about a spouse, or a child, or a parent, or a sibling. It might cause you to really question what you're doing in this world and how do you get right with that? What I can tell you from personal experience is that the reward is worth it because when you're in this position where you don't have to second guess what you're doing, you're free to set all your sales forward, to cut loose the anchors that aren't helping you and to move. You can lead your own life with a newfound strength. You can form teams that build you up, and that you really deserve to have around you when you're striving to accomplish what you're going for, it allows you to align with organizations or to create your own that are going to be where you want to be in the course of a day. It doesn't mean the work is going to be easy. It doesn't mean it's not going to be challenging or risk-free. It means you feel like you have arrived and you are where you need to be in this universe. You only have 80 to 100 years on this planet if you're lucky. Why would you want to spend any of them really feeling like you don't belong? You can be afraid. Fear is good, but let's think our relationship with fear is really what's important. When we create this culture of honesty and the teams we work for and this instinct for truth and data that's around ourselves all the time. It helps us avoid the wrong types of fear. Look, fear is good. There's always a place for it. We should spend a certain amount of time an excited state, in an anxiety-rich state. That is what really precedes a lot of the best things in the world, a lot of amazing accomplishments. But it's that right type of fear, that fear of mitigating what's out there that we can't yet control, versus fear that we give into and problems that we create for ourselves. 

Tim 28:00
So, if you're finding yourself now at the end of, as this is recorded, the end of summer, we're right at the beginning of September here, or you're listening to this later through the year, and you find yourself resisting this a little bit, this notion that you might have fear in your life, I would use it as a challenge to sort of double down and say, Where are there areas that you have made uncomfortable, or, I would say, sub-optimal decisions that you knew were not the best decision at the time. Where did you sell out a little bit? Where did you avoid things a little bit? Do that, take that moment to step back and really say, you know what, I am fallible. It's a chance for you to challenge yourself, step outside your comfort zone. It's also a sign that you're on the right path. You're on a path of truth and fact and courage. So, take that step. Commit today to living without spin, or at least to recognize it, to face your fears, to challenge those uncomfortable moments. So, thanks for taking this time with me today. If you've lasted here to the end, I think you've probably had to swallow at least some uncomfortable concepts. I want you to take a step back now and reflect. I encourage you to journey with me. I'm on this road too. Follow me on LinkedIn. Please subscribe to the podcast, and let's keep this conversation going. Don't just make truth and authenticity a buzzword. Really live it and develop a practice when you can understand where you might be contrary to it.

Tim 29:48
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this episode, Time Sweet and leadership coach Massimo Backus discuss the journey of leadership through the lens of self-discovery, curiosity, and self-compassion. Massimo shares his personal transformation from an objectively bad manager to a transformative leader, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and working within the natural laws of leadership. The episode concludes with a call to action for leaders to practice self-compassion and kindness towards themselves, with Massimo encouraging listeners to reach out for book collaborations.

​Episode Notes
​In this episode, Time Sweet and leadership coach Massimo Backus discuss the journey of leadership through the lens of self-discovery, curiosity, and self-compassion. Massimo shares his personal transformation from an objectively bad manager to a transformative leader, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and working within the natural laws of leadership. The conversation delves into the pervasive nature of self-criticism and its impact on mental health, advocating for reframing self-criticism as a protective mechanism.
Trusting oneself emerges as a foundational element of leadership, often overlooked in discussions about trust. Massimo shares his journey of overcoming defensiveness and developing self-trust, touching on challenges like imposter syndrome and the struggle with self-compassion. Tim and Massimo explore the concept of authenticity, emphasizing that self-trust allows for honesty and transparency, leading to more genuine connections. The episode concludes with a call to action for leaders to practice self-compassion and kindness towards themselves, with Massimo encouraging listeners to reach out for book collaborations.

About  Massimo Backus
Massimo Backus is on a mission to help one million people believe they are worthy and enough. Like many ambitious leaders, Massimo faced early struggles with impostor syndrome and a relentless inner critic. Dyslexia was one of the main drivers for his insecurities and later, his perfectionism. The practice of self-compassion helped him see that what was considered a disability was actually cognitive diversity.
Facilitator, speaker, and executive leadership coach Massimo Backus provides no-BS one-on-one coaching with open-minded and committed senior leaders, and he runs transformative programs with organizations that are serious about change. His fifteen-plus years of experience in talent development and leadership coaching have given him a front-row seat to observe company cultures in the US, UK, and Canada, while working with 3,000+ emerging and seasoned leaders in mid-size and Fortune 500 companies, including Cisco, Accenture, Slalom, Salesforce, Nintendo, Amazon and Fox Entertainment.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Bob Hoffman - The Hoffman Process

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Massimo Backus | Leadership Coaching & High-Performance Team Development: 

• Website
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Massimo Backus

Transcript
Massimo 00:01
Leadership is about leading others in the human experience, in the human condition, and that isn't something to be solved. It's not a problem that we can find the single-threaded answer for. It doesn't exist. And so it will always be more art than science. It's a form of nature more than it is anything else. 

Tim 00:21
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to the Sweet on Leadership podcast episode 39.

Tim 00:50
Hey everybody, welcome. Thanks again for joining us. Today, I've got a very special guest. He is an executive coach. He handles some very deep stuff, and through his powers of self-compassion and other things that he brings to his clients, he's able to change lives. He helps people become their best selves. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation, if what we've been talking about up to this point is any indication, I think we're going to, as we said before, Mas, we're going to be playing jazz. Please welcome Massimo Backus.

Massimo 01:26
Thank you so much for having me, and I am looking forward to playing some jazz.

Tim 01:30
Right on. Mas, why don't you tell us a little more about yourself, let people know who they're listening to today. 

Massimo 01:38
Yeah, I've spent my career in leadership development and executive coaching. I think most notably, I am a reformed, objectively bad manager and bad leader. I recognize the hypocrisy in that, it is not beyond me, and at this point, I've worked with over 3000 leaders intimately and closely, one-on-one, and observed their transformation. I fundamentally made an attribution error at some point, and I mistook the transformation of my own clients for my own. And it wasn't until I received some 360 feedback, which I'm sure many people are familiar with, getting feedback from peers and from my direct reports and skip levels and people above me in the organization, that some news came to light that I was not as great of a leader as I thought that I was, and that is what led me on an unexpected path of my own development that has then informed the work that I do with the executives and leaders that I work with today. 

Tim 02:34
How many years have you been focused on leadership as the science, rather than, you know, having to make some other deliverable. How? How long has that been your sole focus? 

Massimo 02:47
Probably around 12 years that it's been, and the thing about leadership, first of all, it's a word that is used so often that it loses its meaning entirely. There have been countless books on leadership written to this day, and in 10 years, when you and I chat, there will be another countless number of books around leadership, which indicates one thing to me, is that we're trying to solve the unsolvable because leadership is about leading others in the human experience, in the human condition, and that isn't something to be solved. It's not a problem that we can find the single-threaded answer, for it doesn't exist. And so it will always be more art than science. It's a form of nature more than it is anything else. What does it mean to actually be a leader? Is something that evolves and changes and is as unique as you and I, our as our thumbprint and as our fingerprint. And so recognizing that takes all the pressure off of me to have to be the quote-unquote expert and have all the answers, because frankly, I do not, and with that, I can approach you with a great degree of curiosity. And so I'm deeply curious about leadership. I'm deeply curious about what makes for trust in relationships. I'm curious about what makes for peak performances, individuals and teams. I'm curious about what makes for a long, rich, impactful career. In that curiosity, I have found certain things that seem to be North Stars, or maybe you could kind of consider them to be, like the natural laws of physics. I think there are the natural laws of leadership, but again, they're not to be solved. We work within those conditions. We don't solve gravity. We work with gravity. 

Tim 04:29
That's well said. It's definitely a mix of science and art and natural order and natural selection in many ways. And I think that there's so many different components, and I share your curiosity. I mean, in my time focused on this, I think one of the, one of the greatest privileges that I have is to be able to focus on the leadership experience, to be focused on, well, what does it mean for one person versus another, and how. Having dealt with 1000s of leaders and teams and these kinds of things share the same sort of scope, the excitement, the curiosity, comes because so many different people have to find their unique leadership groove. They have to find that way that allows them to accomplish that amazing thing that they can't do alone or to shepherd or support or enrich or, you know, really encourage others to go down that path. And so many don't have the, they're too busy doing to to to really experience the joy of it, in a sense, and to find that, to find that voice and find that style that's all their own. But when they do, holy moly, when they do, it is such an amazing thing to see. And even just this past week, you know, just having a leader in their manager report come back and say everything's changed. We happen to land on that, one of those things, that in two weeks, everything's changed. So I'm with you. I'm really glad that I have a chance to hear it from your perspective, because there aren't that many. There's a lot of people that coach, well, let's just say there's some people that dedicate themselves to it in different ways. Put it that way. Anyway, take us back in to your starting point, that moment that you received some feedback. Where were your blind spots? Where was the feedback, where, you know, you thought you were doing better than you were, for you personally. What was, what was a blind spot that you faced? 

​Massimo 06:48
Well, let me just start by the gut-wrenching experience of getting feedback in that in that way. Just, you know, I believe that feedback is a gift, and I believe that we're all better off when we get it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. You know, eating some of our vegetables is not doesn't always taste good, but it's good for us. And the main piece of feedback Tim was that I was defensive. That I was defensive in people questioning my thinking or my ideas, my approach to things, defensive in all areas. And like any rational person, I responded with, what do you mean? I'm defensive. I'm not defensive. You are being defensive. For saying that I'm defensive. I'm not doing anything wrong, right, because I was clearly on the right side of things. What I foolishly learned is that not only was I defensive in all the places that came back in the 360, but I was defensive in all aspects of my life. And once I got curious about it and realized there's some truth to this, not just one person saying many people are saying it. I asked my wife about it, I asked my friends about it, asked other family members about it, and lo and behold, it was showing up in a lot of different areas for me. I also learned that it was one of those behaviours that ran in the family, not to place blame at all, but to go, oh, maybe this is learned behaviour, and if it was well, then I can unlearn it. I can learn a new behaviour. So that was refreshing. Made me realize this wasn't something that couldn't be fixed. This was something that I now had the opportunity to fix. I spent six months on my own thinking I am a leadership development expert. I'm seen as this guru within the organization that I worked in. I have all these skills and knowledge. I should be able to fix this on my own. And six months later, I had a follow-up meeting with my then manager, and I was hoping that the feedback would be we can tell you've worked really hard, and you've made an incredible turnaround. It's not what I heard. What I heard was we can tell you've been trying, but you've made very little progress. That was devastating. And in that moment, I was pretty sure that I was going to be asked to leave the organization. But to my manager's credit, to that organization, they didn't do that. And in fact, they invested in me and my own development, and I ended up going to a retreat called the Hoffman process, which has been around for about 40 years, started by a gentleman named Bob Hoffman. And their slogan is, if you're serious about change, and I would say, for anyone who is serious about changing the way that they view the world, experience the world, and, most importantly, experience themselves, that it's worth checking out. And it was during that week long retreat that I had an epiphany, which is the epiphany that I that I want for all leaders. It's the epiphany that I want for all people, and it's a leadership epiphany, and it is the value, the importance, dare I say, the necessity, to have a practice of self-compassion. And it was at this retreat that, for the first time in my life, I was 36 years old at the time, that I experienced for the first time, what it was like to actually love who I am, to love myself, to accept myself for my shortcomings, my triggers, my biases, my limitations, but also my strengths and my gifts and the qualities that make me me. All of it, that was a what I call a bedrock moment, that that was a moment that has anchored me every day since, and will continue to be an anchor for me. I do not always practice self-compassion. I'm not always kind to myself these days, but I always remember what is possible when I do and that is that I was able to stop being defensive, that I was able to change my way of being. 

Tim 10:49
I think when you acknowledge or when you let us in, that you're not always practicing self-compassion, as you know the rest of us struggle with. I mean, if it's a meditation practice, you find the ability to silence your mind. You have these moments where everything goes still, and you are really nothing. And then you start thinking about that credit card bill you need to pay, or that the cat needs the litter box changed or something, and you realize you've slipped out. And then you have to strive to get back into that state, meditative state. And you never do it well, but all you can do is you can continue to practice so you get better at it, and that's why they call it a practice, and a practice of self-compassion, realizing and being able, I find in my own personal work, it's not just the realization that we're not or the you know, that we're not terribly self-compassionate, or that we're saying something that's untrue or whatnot, but it's that ability to suddenly hear it, like you can hear the thoughts in your mind saying and it can or at least you can pause and go, well, that wasn't really kind, or that wasn't really true. And you can take a moment with it and then immerse yourself in that practice of recentering, getting back into it, acknowledging what you were thinking, acknowledging what the trigger was, acknowledging what you know, where you need to get back to and and get back into it. And it's a practice. It's building those muscles, it's it's exercising them, and it's very easy. In fact, I would say it's epidemic in our culture that people lose the ability to hear when they're being cruel to themselves between the ears, and it's the easiest thing in the world, and it's the most accepted thing in the world. I think let's understand that it's a human condition to not trust yourself, because you know what. Nobody's let yourself down more than you because nobody knew all those dreams that you had that you didn't make good on. Nobody hears the language you use about yourself and others. So nobody knows how dark you can actually go.

Massimo 13:12
That self-critical, self-judgmental voice. It knows us very well because it is us, and it's hard to separate the noise of that from other parts of our psychology because it knows all of our triggers and, fundamentally, self-criticism, judgment, imposter syndrome, all of these things that ail us, that are, that are epidemic, are designed by us psychologically to protect us, to keep us safe. But there's one thing that they have wrong, and that is that as adults like they were formed when we were children, as adults, we don't need to be held safe in that way, that we are actually safer, as you said, when we do trust ourselves, we're safer when we can be kind to ourselves, we're safer when we humble ourselves to ask for help.

Tim 14:05
When we deal with the exposure, when we apply the stress and the adversity.

Massimo 14:07
Absolutely and accept our limitations instead of trying to hide all these things. And it's a show of strength. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do to face the most vicious and toxic voice in our lives that comes from us, to face that head-on and to not meet it with resentment or this ego death bullshit that people talk about, which I fundamentally think is wrong. It's about a relationship. Ego serves a purpose. There's value to it, but you need to have a healthy relationship with it, and, you know, to kind of make this real as an example, my defensiveness that I had for so many years was protecting me, or so I thought, by making sure that, well, I always have the last word. I need to make sure that I'm the smartest person in the room. I need to. To demonstrate my worth, but it was doing the opposite. Everyone else saw, that I was hiding my own insecurities, except for me.

Tim 15:10
One of my favourite bosses, still to this day, he's one of these forever bosses. Because, I mean, I went into consulting practice very, very early, and then when I finished school, I had. A number of years as a regional manager, big, big management position, but then very quickly, went back to consulting. But then was scooped by a couple of companies, and one of them was a company I was happy to stay in and I ended up working for a commercial team to, you know, raise my financial acumen and do all the stuff, and also the best experiences I still absolutely, you know, hold this guy in great esteem. And I remember that I'd be in these, these meetings with the C-suite, or with executives, like fairly high ranking people, and if I had a point to make, I always had a quote, or I had some research, or I attributed it to some author. And he said, you know, you're making all these good points, and it's very, very valuable, but you have to then cite it. And I said, Well, I come from a historical background, so, like, everything is provable in this kind of thing. He said, I don't think that's it says, I don't think you're willing to own that. I think you want to make sure that you can share the load with some other author or whatnot. And man that stung. That was because he had me nail like he had me totally made. And was one of the most valuable things I learned under his mentorship, because it was a few months later that I had to stand up for an idea to one of the top guys, big multinational corporation and I remember I stood on my own two feet. I made my point, and the point was tough to deliver, and it hit hard, but I felt in that moment like I was in a different gear, right? And it was that, in a sense, one of the facets of self, trust and love was to stand on my own two feet and be and like, you know what you're talking about here. Just go ahead. And it was like an arrival. It was like, I belong here. I know what I'm talking about. I don't have to apologize or whatnot. And I was never the same after that. That was one of those leverage moments.

Massimo 17:26
Yeah, yeah, one of those bedrock moments that you can always go back to remember what it was like when you truly trusted yourself. And you know, in the organizational context and leadership, you know, landscape, we talk about trust all the time, like leadership. How many books have been written about trust? How often in trust conversations, do we talk about the value of trusting ourselves, or do we ask, How do I know when I trust myself? How do I know when I'm not trusting myself? What do I need in order to be able to trust myself? What's present when I trust myself least? These are questions that are very rarely asked in the broader conversation about trust, it is always about another person or the team, and that's important, absolutely. But I believe, and I found, with the leaders that I've worked with throughout my career, that often when trust is not present on a team, there is trust that is not present for each individual with themselves.  

Tim 18:37
Oh, 100%. You cannot give away what you don't have. 

Massimo 18:39
Right. 

Tim 18:40
Absolutely impossible. So talk, talk about that a little bit actually, and you know what I'm going to I'm going to do something a little bit off the wall here. I was, saving a question. We have a question every episode, and I was going to save yours till the end, but because we are at this point in the conversation, I'm going to go ahead and and voice it. This comes from Peter Root with Wildfire Robotics, and he asked the question for the next guest, which is you, what are some of those pivotal ways that you build trust with your staff? With clients? Perhaps, you know. So I think you're landing on this now. So why don't you, why don't you flesh that out, speaking to Peter for a moment. 

Massimo 19:28
I love Peter's question. Tim, so thank you for sharing that and the conversation of trust. There's, there's very little that has not, that hasn't already been explored around honesty and transparency, credibility, competence, reliability. But when you think about going into a relationship where you want to build trust, the value of trusting yourself going into that relationship, if I trust myself, I feel grounded. I know my capabilities. I know the limits of my capabilities. I am going to be in a much better place, to be honest, because I am willing to show up in a way that is asking the other person to meet me where I'm at. I'm not trying to be someone that I'm not. I can say, here are the things that I'm good with, and here are the things that I'm not. Lucky for me, I have a huge cadre of other coaches and consultants that I work with clients will come to me and ask me to help them with some body of work that I might not be best suited for, and I know my shortcomings in the areas that I'm not best suited, but that's why I have this community of other talented people to bring them in. So I'm able to approach these conversations honestly and transparently and with confidence that isn't boastful. Now, Tony Robbins talks about confidence as a mindset. It's something that we can, you know, get ourselves into this mindset. And yes, maybe there's, there's some truth to that, but I think that it's actually a way of being. If I'm being honest with myself, then I'm able to be confident because I'm not trying to be something that I'm not. And where we get ourselves into trouble when it comes into relationships and building trust is we make some assumptions around who I need to be in order for this person to trust me, or if we're really, you know, going to the playground as kids, to like me, because so many people actually, they just want to be liked, they want to be included. They want to be picked for kickball, right? But if I trust myself, we could say, hey, like I'm, you can pick me on the kickball team. I'm a good kicker, but I can't catch for anything. They’re either going to pick me or not pick me, but at least I don't have to worry about being somebody that I'm not. And they might say, yeah, come on here. I'll teach you how to catch. Great. I want to be a part of the team, but I'm not trying to hide something that might be a limitation and say, you know, just hope the ball doesn't come to me because if it does, I'll be found out

Tim 22:03
That ability to distinguish when we're trying to develop ourselves and develop that confidence, develop that, I like to use the word fluency, of who we are, so we can be right with it. It's really important to differentiate that from the management of an identity, a visible thing that you want other people to see and that you want to you want other people to think, and that often covers up the guilt or the shame or the scarcity or the fear and you know, we, you often see people that are fronting so hard on something because it's the last place that they want people to actually question them or see what's under the surface, and to be able to let that go. Talk about energy management, I mean capacity. Now we, we've, you know, we're a few years past COVID, not past COVID, but anyway, we're coming out the other side in many ways, but organizationally, we have people that are still tapped. They are stretched capacity-wise, mentally, what a source of energy to not have to keep your deflector shields up, to not have to keep the holographic emitters up, to not have to keep the story going and and manage the and not to say that people do this even consciously. You know that it's not like they know they're putting on some sort of a mask, but that because the mask has been on for so long and it's there as a protection. But if you don't have to keep that up, wow, and just be confident that you're, you're, and I love… you and I both use the word enough a lot, and it's right on the top of your LinkedIn profile, but to just be at peace with the fact that it's like, you know what? This is what you've got. This is what you've got in front of you take it or leave it, and I'm super cool either way. And it's liberating. I recently, well, two plus, yeah, two years ago now, almost coming up on my two-year anniversary, actually had both knees replaced after lots of sports. It was a big surgery, a big pivotal moment in my life, because I've got 19-year-old knees, and not to take the speaking conch chair for too long, but I was following, or I follow this, this coach. She's in a spiritual sort of sector, but she made this point, and she talked about the meditative practice or the realization that, you know, that spark that is our consciousness, isn't it just uses the brain as an organ, and it uses the body as a mechanism, and to almost visualize yourself. I always think of of that scene in Men in Black, where they're eating pierogies, and the face comes open, and it's that little alien. But to realize that you're wearing this meat suit, right, and that you're, this is the way we get around the world is in this meat suit, but it's not you, per se, like it is, but it's not your consciousness. And when I started to think about that on the physical side and said, Well, hey, this is just my meat suit. My meat suit has two artificial needs. My meat suit requires certain things. It's built in a certain way. That means I'm capable of some things and not capable of others. Wow. What a liberating thought, and what an ability to kind of love my meat suit, because I'm not going to get another one anytime soon, and I can sit back and say. Hey, this, takes stock. This is what I like about it. This is what I find challenging about it. But I can love the whole mess and just realize it like it's a, you know, I think people often have more love for their cars than they've got for their body. And that's pretty funny, you know. And so I know that, that we're not talking physicality here, but again, it's that, that ability to say, You know what, even if I'm carrying some family baggage part of my operating system, I can still love that part of myself as I seek to to work with it.

Massimo 26:15
Absolutely. I mean, Tim, what you just shared is, this example is a beautiful example of what a practice of self-compassion looks like, and it balances the acceptance of what it is that we have with the compassion to take care of what it is that we have, right? So, this isn't a passive practice, this isn't something that is just accept my limitations and don't do anything with them. It's accept them and then, from there, choose what will I do with them? What am I going to let go of and accept and what are the things that I'm going to double down on and continue to improve and change? So it's a very, it's very proactive. This is a very energetic practice, and the energy that we need to do it comes from letting go of that mask or the hologram or all the different ways that you describe structure, which is so true. It the single biggest waste of energy in organizations today is people masking, hiding, parading, politicking, doing all these things to hide who they really are for fear that if someone saw them they would be rejected. And the reality is, the person that they really are is better on all accounts than the person that we pretend to be. We just have to trust ourselves enough to show that to people.

Tim 27:41
I think it's also really interesting when you're comfortable to lead with who you are, warts and all, and you're rejected, you're getting real feedback. If your mask is rejected, if the image you're putting forward is rejected, you're one step removed. You can actually be kind of deadened to the, to the reality that rejection doesn't really mean that much, no, nor does the praise, you know, or the positive feedback, because we're letting the marionette go first. We're like, you know, one of these guys with the Jim Hensen and it's a puppet. 
Yes. 
The puppet can take a lot of abuse.
The ventriloquist. Yeah. 

Tim 28:30
Well, you know what? There's so much farther to go. And I just want to really thank you for taking the time, because we've gone deep in the in the time that we've got. So I want to do two things here. Well, maybe three. First of all, I want you to tell everybody what you're most excited about, because you've got some big news. So, and I know you didn't want to really be the guy to come on and talk about it, but man, you gotta because I know I'm inspired to pick a certain something up. So, quick. Let's tell the people. 

Massimo 28:58
Thank you. It is very exciting. My first book, “Human First, Leader, Second: How self-compassion outperforms self-criticism”, is coming out in September, September 10, and people can find it on Amazon right now. And for anyone listening whose interest is piqued around, what is this self-compassion practice? And how do I start? This book is written for leaders and teams to start to develop that practice. And it's not a one-size-fits-all all. It's a choose your own adventure, and it will lead towards a place where that energy isn't being wasted and trying to be somebody you're not, but being your best self as a leader. 

Tim 29:40
If you had one, well, if you had one wish for anybody listening today, what would it be?

Massimo 29:43
Go do something kind for yourself. 

Tim 29:45
It doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be profound. Go do something kind for yourself. 

Massimo 29:51
Go do something kind for yourself. Take a five minute break in between meetings and get some fresh air. Go stand in the sunshine. Drink a nice cold glass of water. Call an old friend. Doesn't matter what it is, you're worthy of it. You're worth it. And Tim, I know there's a question that I should be asking for the next guest, correct? 

Tim 30:09
Yeah, what's, what's, what do you have on your mind?

Massimo 30:12
What is the one thing that you are most afraid to let go of? And who would you be if you did?

Tim 30:19
If people want to get in touch with your mouth. Where can they find you? 

Massimo 30:22
Massimobackus.com, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm pretty sure I'm the only Massimo Backus out there. And please reach out. And if you buy the book and read it, I want to hear what you think. This is something that I felt called to do. I had an epiphany. I want to share it with other people, and I take no ownership of the idea of self-compassion. I think I've been called to be a messenger, one of many, I hope to share the value of it. I don't see how the world could not be a better place if we all learn to be a little bit kinder to ourselves. 

Tim 30:54
Love it. Okay. Mas, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. It was a real pleasure. 

Massimo 31:02
Thank you, Tim. Talk to you soon. 

Tim 31:06
We'll be in touch when it comes to your launch party.

Tim 31:11
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: Join Tim Sweet in episode 38 of the "Sweet on Leadership" podcast as he interviews Peter Root, co-founder of Wildfire Robotics. Learn how Peter's innovative technology is revolutionizing wildfire management and how building strong relationships with fire, technology, and community can drive meaningful change. Discover how leaders can achieve success by focusing on building and maintaining key relationships.

Episode NotesJoin Tim Sweet in an enlightening conversation with Peter Root, co-founder of Wildfire Robotics. They delve into the intersection of technology and wildfire management, emphasizing how a relationship-based approach can revolutionize traditional methods. Peter shares his journey from oil and gas drilling to creating a groundbreaking robotic snake designed to combat wildfires. This episode highlights the critical role of leadership in fostering innovation and building strong relationships with both technology and the environment.
Peter Root discusses the importance of understanding and adapting to the changing nature of wildfires, influenced by climate change and human expansion. He explains how Wildfire Robotics' innovative technology offers a proactive and strategic solution to wildfire management. This episode offers leaders ways to cultivate valuable relationships and how to take your own adventure into real life. 
About Peter Root
Peter Root is the co-founder of Wildfire Robotics, a company dedicated to innovating wildfire management through advanced robotics. An engineer by training, Peter moved to Alberta in 2013 and has since developed a passion for creating technologies that can significantly impact communities affected by wildfires. His work combines his love for the outdoors with his expertise in robotics, aiming to provide safer and more efficient fire management solutions.
Resources discussed in this episode:

• Startup TNT
• Firewall Robotic Snake

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Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Peter Root | Wildfire Robotics: 

• Website: wildfirerobotics.com
• Linkedin: Peter Root

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Transcript:
Peter 00:01
You got to get to something of value as fast as you can. And so we did that, I think by design, which was actually very fulfilling as well, you know, as a sometimes impatient engineer, I love that we could get feedback on what we're building so quickly.


Tim 00:18
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, welcome to the Sweet on Leadership podcast. This is episode 38.
Tim 00:49
Hi, everybody, I hope you're having a great week. Joining me today is Peter Root. I am really excited to welcome Peter to the show today, Peter and I met a while back when he was part of Startup TNT here in Calgary. He's an all-around, pretty exciting guy with an exciting technology that he's bringing into the world. And I'm just so glad that he can come on the show today. And we can chew around some leadership ideas in the context of his experience and what he's going through right now. So, thank you very much for joining me, Peter.


Peter 01:21
Thank you very much for having me.


Tim 01:22
So, for the benefit of everybody that's listening, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and Wildfire Robotics? 


Peter 01:29
Sure. So, I'm an engineer by training and I moved to Alberta in 2013. And I grew up on Vancouver Island. So, I have a passion for being outdoors, you know, those two places are, are quite good Mecca is for exploring the outdoors. And I didn't have a firm relationship with wildfires until about 2016. And I think a lot of people in Alberta, that was a pivotal year. And I had two friends who live there and they got the call to evacuate. And they had to leave within 15 minutes. And through before that time, I built sort of technologies in oil and gas drilling and a bunch of different areas and really grew passionate about building robotics, things that you can control to do novel things and to automate tasks or mechanized tasks that led me into this wildfire world. So, it really hits a lot of key passions of mine, which are being outdoors, robotics, and something that can give back to communities, you know, especially communities that have been affected by wildfires in the past.


Tim 02:24
So this would have been Fort Mac, back in the day, Fort McMurray. Massive fire in an entire city, for those of you that aren't aware. Northern Alberta was evacuated, there was a fair amount of destruction. And we realized just how hard it was to react in certain environments. And this is only increasing as we're seeing the effects of climate change and warming. And we seem to be on a trend right now. So, this is, you know, this is something that's in the news last year, it's going to be in the news this year, we're there. But I can imagine seeing your friends having to evacuate and seeing the human toll that made this foray into a brand new innovative technology possible for you. Tell us a little bit about the innovation that you brought, and how you would sort of conceptualize that?


Peter 03:16
Before I go there trying to do a startup is no easy task. And so you want to make sure that you're doing something that you care about. And something that has an impact. Doing something in wildfire is very meaningful, and can provide a lot of feedback in good and bad ways when you do it. So, it's a good place to be. So, the innovation actually comes from my co-founder and partner. His name is Allan Richardson. He was actually my boss before we joined together doing this. And he's innovated a lot in his career in different areas, but primarily in oil and gas drilling, which is directional drilling. So, you're trying to punch something through the earth and steer it where you need to go. And then you're distributing fluids or communication signals along the length of it to do various things. And if you can take that concept of putting together long, skinny things and going kilometres into the earth, just thinking about doing that on land. And instead of oil and gas things, you're moving water or retardant. And instead of fracking for fluids, you're spraying water strategically. So, you can stop the advance of a fire or you can mop up a fire or you can monitor the perimeter of a fire so that if things flare up again, you can address it. And the way that we get that thing that long conduit there is through a robotic so, we have a really long robotic snake and it can go long distances over rough terrain. And that can be you know, a kilometer, two kilometers, 10 kilometers. And then we can remotely control the distribution of water anywhere along its length. And so that's where the innovation came from. Really it was taking something that worked well in oil and gas drilling, said hey, can we leverage all of the knowledge and skills that we've accumulated and can we put it into something else and apply that something different? And it's a great place to start because you know certain elements of technology that will certainly work because you've seen it work before. But then you have new challenges, you know, especially the terrain that you're going through is quite challenging in a lot of these fire prone areas.


Tim 05:07
What we'll do is we'll put up a link to your site so that people can visit and take a look at exactly what this large robotic snake looks like, as it's crawling between trees and dragging hose behind it and these kinds of things. It is phenomenal. It's really, really interesting. And you and I talked a lot about first principles and the importance of those. And I'm hearing that now as you're going through sort of dissecting, well what hasn't been applied in a in a fire context, in a sense, right now. Can you tell us a little bit about how that thinking from yourself or from Allan was adopted as you seek to both develop this thing, but also then share it story and explain to people why it's different and how it overcomes some constraints that we've accepted for years? 


Peter 05:59
Yeah, I want to back up to and talk about fire a little bit before I talk about that first principle. I think it's important. And you mentioned it a little bit after I mentioned Fort McMurray. But it does seem, you know, I think the general person can sort of observe that these fires have gone from something that I didn't know much about, to something that I hear about and smell and feel the effects of every year, or I know someone who was evacuated. And it seems like it was about 10 years ago, where that switch was flipped. It really changed everyone's perception. So, people started looking at it. And so did Allan and I. We really looked at, well, why are these fires happening the way they are now and what's different than before. And there's really three main factors. So, one of the factors is that we have over-suppressed fires, we have been so good at putting them out for about 100 years that we've exacerbated fuel accumulation, instead of letting fires do their natural and inevitable thing where they go and they are low-intensity fires, they burn just along the forest floor, but not the actual big trees, they reduced fuel loads, they actually, they actually provide some ecological benefit to certain types of species that has been curtailed by our efforts. The second thing is there are more things we care about where fires burnt, we have humans have expanded on the landscape at an enormous pace. Where do we want to live, we want to live in the forest we want to live where there's a nice view, we want to live in the mountains and those are all places that are fire-prone and need fire. And so now there are more things to protect when fires burn. So, if a fire does get out, there's a higher likelihood that it will interact with something we care about. And then the third thing is related to a shift into drier and hotter summers. There's about a three to six-week increase in the total length for fires to burn. And a big factor of that is that there's less water moisture in the air during the summer, you just increase the likelihood of a high fire weather severity. So, dry, high winds, those two things together, and then ignition events, both human-caused and natural. This just all leads to a fire environment, which is much more severe and unpredictable than before. And so then, unfortunately, it's only typically when you have approaching a crisis that people start to think outside the box and start to look for other areas where they may be able to improve what they're doing. So, if you're if you're doing a really good job at wildland firefighting for a long time, you may not think that you need to change. And certainly, I think that was the case for a long time, it was very well managed. But there's a collective opinion that we need to put more fire back in the landscape, not less. So, more low-intensity fire, more prescribed burns, more cultural burning and it is indeed true. There's a lot of studies supporting this. And so part of the paradigm shift for us that we're trying to both educate ourselves on but also educate is that we want to provide a very reliable separation means for fire containment, both for wildfires, manage fires, which are wildfires that are then allowed to go where they can, and prescribed fires and do that in a way that doesn't have much personnel overhead is low risk, has high reliability, and doesn't have a huge impact on the ecosystem. Because bulldozers certainly do you're clearing large swaths of land to remove fuel. And so we had to educate ourselves a lot about wildfire. But now it's like, hey, we have this new tool that can do a bunch of new things. And I think the trick for us was really just finding people who believed in us and what we were doing, and then working with them on the fire, to actually learn and develop and really get to a really strong solution.


Tim 09:34
What's really interesting about what you've just said there is this isn't just about reacting to the way things have always been. Your role in this or what you're becoming part of is a brand new approach to how we think about fire generally. So, what's really interesting is that the technology is not just about prevention, it's actually about helping us better manage the entire resource and what we're doing and that confluence between, you know, increased fuel load, drier conditions, and then our proximity to all of these things requires that we try a different approach, overall, not just in this one aspect of things. And so that different approach is going to require more nuance, more options, more flexibility, these kinds of things. And that's really what it sounds like you are beginning to provide. When I go back to that previous thought, when you think about entering this new era of relationship with fire, what then do you find is the most challenging aspect?


Peter 10:45
I really liked that you said relationship with fire because that's what it needs to be. It can't be fight the fire, it needs to be a relationship with a fire. So, good on you, and that's a great message for everyone thinking about fire generally, is it's going to be a relationship. And, you know, perhaps that's the word too, for us. It's the relationships that we are building and working on, that will allow us to be part of the solution. Because I firmly believe that there's no sort of Immaculate Conception of technology. You have an idea you might be on your way there. It's when you find someone who has expertise in that domain, and then they get interested, then you work together to go deploy it, you know, our objective is to deploy as many miles as possible, in as many different terrain conditions as possible, with as many different vegetations as possible, as many him fire behaviours as possible. Because only through all of that, well, we learned enough to be really good. And we are only allowed to do that once we build relationships with the people who do that for their livelihood. And the one other comment I had to this is that one of the challenges with fire, especially if you're doing a piece of equipment or method that has safety implications, as in this thing needs to be reliable to protect people's lives, which it does, your barrier to entry to try to go out and learn is a lot higher. And I think we've gotten over the hump with some key people and some key areas. But we would love to do that in more areas.


Tim 12:15
Right, so, have the chance to get out and prove the technology because people are going to be putting their trust in this thing, in a sense. If you look at a fire hydrant on the corner of your block, you know what that's there for. If you look at a smoke detector, you know what that's there for people have a relationship with these things. Albeit crisis-based, right? So, it seems to me that there's a couple of different facets then that you're having to enter on. One is augmenting people's, as we say, relationship with fire or their conceptualization of that, but it's not just reactionary, this needs to change. So, then they see the reason why this new technology has a place. And then the second thing is to get out there and actually see it, or see the difference it's making and see that that technology is learning and evolving as it will because it's brand new so that then they can see the obvious application for it in their own minds, and say, Okay, now this makes sense. I understand why we would use something like this, I understand why we may use it as part of a controlled burn program or something along those lines. And I know what it does for me, I know why it's there. I know what I'm getting from it. I get enamored by the technology itself, and just how many rules it breaks. In a sense, you know what I mean? Like, well, literally, you know, you think about what a firefighting response or a fire control response looks like right now we think about big trucks, we think about planes dropping water, or people rappelling out of helicopters, and using shovels and doing all these kinds of things. And this is a completely different animal in a way, it's a totally different idea around an approach. And when we have those brand new ideas, getting people to open the door is challenging. So, when you look ahead from that perspective, you had mentioned that you've got some good key relationships in place and those are happening. Managing a company or yourself and your partner Allan going forward. The experience of having to bring that to market, tell us a little bit about your actual experience like how has that changed you? What has it changed in the way that you approach people or problems or say from your your oil and gas days? What's been the net learning?


Peter 14:42
I think then if I can sum it up in a sentence, then I'll expand on it is sort of ruthlessly pursuing the thing of value. So, that means finding the thing of value and then making the thing of value. And my example of that is we picked up a prototype size for a first version and everyone has to do this, say, well how, you know, how capable is this thing going to be. And I do think we made the right decision. But we made it pretty small, pretty low capacity. But what that allowed us to do was we could design things and manufacture them and by manufacture, I mean, we built them within days, or fractions of days or weeks, not months, or years. And when you're building hardware, that's really critical. So, there were circumstances where we had designed something up, and we were looking at all the components that we need to do that. And one of the things took a week and we said, no, we're going to redesign so it takes a day to get here. And that was cool because that has shortcutted learnings probably by an order of magnitude. And I don't think we would have actually had a prototype that was compelling enough if we hadn't designed it in that way, like designed by lead time. At least right now. I think there's points in the future where then you can shift that to a bit more optimization, but there's no point optimizing too much right now. When you're running a startup, you have a runway. You have a limited time to get from this point in time, we just said, Yeah, I'm going to do this thing, to where you have a line of sight on either funding or revenue. We've talked about it before, about hardware being a little bit of a different animal than software, because for whatever reason, people tend to need to see the hardware working to believe it. And I think there's a lot of faith in software right now that it can do these amazing things, which you can. I mean, AI has been pretty wonderful to work with, for some things for a lot of people. And it looks like magic, really. But it seems like there's disbelief in hardware until you actually have it. So, you have to hedge your bets a little bit, go out there with something you believe in and then try to massage from there. And so that's, that's a little bit harder. And so for me that the biggest learning difference from an oil and gas environmental, though there are similar things there. But it was just, you know, you got to get to something of value as fast as you can. And so we did that, I think by design, which was actually very fulfilling as well, you know, as a sometimes impatient engineer, I love that we could get feedback on what we're building so quickly.


Tim 17:10
I mean, I think we are at this really interesting intersect right now of people's tolerance for risk, it actually being fairly low, and people's patience, and that also being fairly low. And we talk about collectively as a society that people's attention spans are limited. But what I'm hearing and what I see is that, you know, back in the day before we had AI, and we had a lot of virtual products and things that would exist on your phone, but you could install an app, and you could uninstall it as quickly as you would otherwise. And there's very few things that we are on this huge adoption curve, but many of them are not going to impact us in some major way. And so you know, it looks good on paper is fine, unless, it's the difference between your house burning down and not. And so I remember years ago working with some leaders from General Dynamics who were in a defence contract, and they were developing a walkie-talkie, like, this is old technology, it took them years to bring it over. But I remember talking to them about the design specs for this handheld radio that troops would be using. And one of them said, it all looks good on paper but can the thing drive a tense spike into the ground? I said, that's interesting. Tell me about that. He says, Well, we have to plan for as many contingencies as we can and we have to also understand that if it's in somebody's hand, and it can be used as a device to hammer in a tent spike, we have to make sure that it's not going to fall apart. Is it going to pass a field test because that's what's going to determine whether or not the troops will actually accept this thing and whether or not it will be reliable or not. I did a lot of military history in my early days, and there was a lot of lessons that come out of when privateers are promising big things from implements of war. I remember one was called the McCallum shovel and it was this Canadian design where the designer of this trench shovel had the brilliant idea of it being a doubling as a piece of armour that they could pick up over the edge of the trenches with. And so he put a hole with a door right in the middle of the shovel. The thing wasn't thick enough to stop a bullet. So, it wasn't good as a piece of armor and it was a shovel with a big hole in it. So, it didn't do a great job of digging either. And, you know, it's again, one of those things. It's like looks good on paper. But you don't want to be the guinea pig, trialing it you want to see it work. And so that practical application that going and seeing how this thing responds to the world and how people develop a relationship with it is really important. The other thing that I thought was really profound about what you said was that there's no point optimizing right now. We're taking this piece at a time, you're taking a modular approach, we call this theory of constraints all the time, you know, exploit the thing that is the bottleneck or the thing that's holding you back. And I'm reminded of an expert that I talked to around the formation of habits. And he said, you know, when we're trying to get a person to adopt a new lifestyle/principle of going to the gym, you don't judge the person on whether or not they went to the gym and had an optimized workout, first. You first lay in, can they get up in the morning, even if they drive to the gym, turn around and go home, that's better than if they didn't go at all. Because we have to first work at being less than optimal. You have to develop the habit before you get good at it. So, go in and risk it being you know, the technology is a little bit different, but focus on what matters first, and then work in the optimization. Because if you go for perfect, originally, what do they say, it's always that perfection is the is the enemy of progress, right? We want to focus on getting it done in a virtual space. So, I think those are two really important things, right is that, as you say, get off paper, get out of the virtual world, and then go where the work is done or go see it work. Build that relationship while in development, but then also a relationship with the people observing it. And then focus on what you need to. On that virtual point, though, let me ask you that. When you are out looking for funding, or in the context you and I met, you were up against software, right? Do you see that? That people's relationships with an innovative, durable object versus software is very different? Do you see that the, be it investors or potential customers, have a different kind of relationship with it? Or am I imagining that?


Peter 21:58
No, you're spot on. Very different relationships from most people I meet actually between the two. And I think, especially so because what we're building is more akin to almost military hardware, then sort of other types of hardware that are built like drone-based things, or Agtech or something like that, because they have this sort of human life aspect of it. So, it adds another layer of complexity and difficulty to the hardware equation. But certainly, you know, I'll admit there's more overhead for making a piece of hardware than there is a piece of software. I do believe there's more upkeep on some software because you have to constantly be, you know, making sure it integrates with all the new implementations of all sorts of different codes, that's made its way to hardware now too, because you're constantly updating software, look at modern EVs, or modern cars, they have updates over the air. So, you're constantly updating and keeping alive that piece of software. But I think though, what hardware offers which software doesn't, which investors do understand, but they want to see you a little bit further along until they sort of recognize this as something to celebrate. But the protective moat is much larger, the barrier to entry to build a wildfire-fighting robot is very high. Because not only do you need to know a bit about fire and a lot about robotics, you have to have the connections and someone that believes in you to actually get out there on the fire and learn the right things. That is no small thing to go do. But if you do it and you do it successfully, then you have built very durable relationships in that space that then lend themselves to a very durable business. So, I think you have to be a bit more patient with hardware. But know that I think that the potential benefit of that thing can bring, and the sustainable business that I can create are quite compelling.


Tim 23:51
We talked about innovation, and I'm starting to see this business that you're involved in, in the technology, you're trying to bring in a very different lens, just through the course of this conversation. You know, when we think about, when we think about a lot of software, or you know, the adoption of marketplaces or new ways that we're going to interact with our phone or manage our phonebook or whatever, you know, whatever. Like, these things are all faster pencils, in many ways. They're things we already do and it's convenience. You're involved, if we strip everything else away, you're involved in creating something that in 100 years could be as ubiquitous in a forest as a firefighting plane or a pump truck or shovel. Like we're talking about something that would be part of the landscape in the way that the automobile became part of the landscape. Right? Sure there's been lots of innovations, but there was the first automobile that people were like horseless carriage, what the hell, right? Like this is something that A. again, I'm a practical guy. I think practically this thing makes all sorts of sense. And so it's like, why didn't this exist before? So, that's like one of the things on my, you know, get good at making it. But why wouldn't you do this? Right? If you can have a Roomba, you can certainly have a self-directed hose that's gonna put itself somewhere. I mean, hey, you know, you could even have small-scale stuff that waters lawns, I don't know. But why wouldn't you do this? Because it just seems so logical when you're talking about firebreaks. They're big, and they're long. And well, great. Let's do this. And so that creating something, though, that's that profound. And as you say, you're taking a huge chunk, you got to know a lot about fires, and you got to know a lot about robotics, and you've got to have the relationships in place to do it. And you're disrupting, in a great way, how people think about this other option that makes a ton of sense. But man, what a lift, like it's not. It's not like it's not like say, hey, you know, you want a better way to whip eggs. It's not, it is a huge lift. And I think it's a great lift. You know, talk about gumption man. So, I mean, I hope for the people listening that they can get a sense of, and I can't wait till all of you listening, get a chance to see this thing, videos and whatnot, because it is cool. Let's talk a little bit then as we sort of head towards our wrap-up here. If you were to think of the well, so I mean, one of the takeaways is that relationships here are key, right? Getting into the right spaces, and then not just opening up business but opening minds is such a huge piece here. So, first of all, what would something that wildfire robotics is, is on the cusp of right now that you'd like people to be aware of? Or how would you like them to spread the word? What's something that you would like people to shout from the rooftops?


Peter 27:01
Well, we're about to do a bunch of work with Alberta wildfire. And this means taking our team and our alpha prototype, and eventually our next version out to real fires, and interacting with them and the people there in a real way. And that, to me, is the most exciting part of running the business. This is where I wanted to be like, you know, three years ago, but I'm finally here. And this is where I think the relationships get solidified. You know, we've built the beginning up, but this is where we show them that, hey, we can come, we'll bring our thing, and then we'll improve it next time we're out here. And we're going to do that until it's something of such extreme value that you'll never kick us off again like that's where we want to get to. And we're at the beginning stages of this. And we're also in an environment now where it's really fun. Like, there's nothing more fun to me, than going out to a wild area with a bunch of hardworking people who have been containing and interacting with a wildfire, which is such an extreme event and such an admirable profession, to be around those people and then to be able to bring them something new, and work collectively to build it. What's more fun than that? So, I'm really excited about that portion of it. And you know, we are still looking for people to help out on this. So you know, if this is something of interest, like, come talk to me, there's lots of fun things to do in wildfire. 


Tim 28:18
I think what I want us to follow up on but when you say that, I would say you've got a story developing here, you've got a hero's quest developing here. This is an adventure that you're on, you're going to have several destinations, all of these different things that are happening. And if people want to follow along with your story, where's the best place to do that right now? And would that be something that you'd be interested in people getting more in touch with?


Peter 28:47
Yeah, and so I don't think I've done a good enough job at that yet. But with these trials, I will be sharing information, right now I do that on LinkedIn, through myself. I don't do that through our company, webpage there. But maybe I'll look to other means to share this because it is something that I think a lot of people care about.


Tim 29:07
I think so many people are going to care about this. And so, Peter, I think as we move forward when that story starts to flesh out, and I want to have you back, I want us to talk about that. About getting people into your story, get them following along and all of those things because it is that relationship that we need to think about. We'll put your deets down in the in the show notes. So they can reach out to you on LinkedIn. If they're just listening today. What's your handle on LinkedIn?


Peter 29:36
It's something complicated but look up  Peter Root Wildfire Robotics.


Tim 29:39
They'll find it alright. We'll have all these in the show notes. If I was to ask you what's one wish that you have for the people listening today? What would it be?


Peter 29:48
Take your own journey. It's a lot of fun, very humbling. You learn a lot. It's sobering in all the right ways. So yeah, take your own adventure.


Tim 29:58
Awesome. Take your own adventure and do it in real life.


Peter 30:01
Yeah. Do it in real life.


Tim 30:02
Yeah, no kidding. Right on. Alright, little tradition here that we do at the end of every show. One is I'm going to ask you a question that comes from our previous guests. In this case, it was Jeff, he was asking, and this is directed at you, and then we can talk a little bit about how a person arrives there. But what do you want your leadership legacy to be? When you think, far off into the future? People are thinking about you and what you accomplished, and how you did it. What do you want people to be saying?


Peter 30:31
Sustainable leadership, just in the sense that you got to be making a whole bunch of decisions on things that you may not have any experience with. And that's very taxing. And then you also you're innovating, you're coming up with new things. And there's an expectation, I think that generally, you do that at the cadence of sort of pure output work, like just something that you need to be at 100% all the time. And that's really not realistic. If you really think about your best innovations or your best work in life, it's ebb and flow, there's periods of high productivity, followed by recovery. And I think I want to make the people who have worked with me, and will work with me in the future to know that that's what I believe in, so that they can lead a more fulfilling life, because I think if we just grind all the time, we grind ourselves down. And so I think there's more productivity to be seen, if you accept this natural flow of high productivity and rest periods, while still working. But just just know that, like, you know, there's gonna be super intense periods, and we all got to be on but if we were on for the past year, Full Tilt, we won't be ready for that period. And I want to make sure that my teams know that and that other people take on the same thing.


Tim 31:46
I love that I can't wait to introduce you to the work of Richard Young, he's been on the show a couple of times, he works with Olympic athletes, and works with sustainable high performance, something that I've brought into my practice. But you know, one of the metaphors for that is training, like you would for a marathon. You're going to perform, you're gonna have these periods of performance where you're delivering. But then as you say, there's this recuperation. And then there's this conditioning and training and practice and learning new things and honing your craft. And then there's a period of performance where you deliver, and then getting comfortable with that cyclic nature of things. Right. Awesome. Love that. Peter, what would be a question you would have for the next guest? Keep in mind that this can be any type of person that we bring on who we feel has unique and sometimes eclectic leadership.


Peter 32:39
Well, you know, I think because the topic of our chat here has been really, a lot of it's been about relationships, I would ask them, how do they build trust in their business, both with the people who work for them, and their customers and their investors?


Tim 32:55
Awesome. I think that that is something that a lot of people would be very interested in answering. I will make sure that I pose that question to the next guest. And I'll put together some resources that I have that I think might be helpful for the people that are on that same quest. Peter Root, Wildfire Robotics, man, this one was a scorcher. It was fun. You are, you know, a lot of flame, not a lot of smoke. A lot of good stuff here. I really appreciate it and I hope you had fun.


Peter 33:28
I did. Likewise. Thank you very much. 
Tim 33:29
All right, can’t wait to have you back. 


Tim 33:31
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, Tim Sweet hosts leadership coach, Jeff Massone. Their conversation explores the impact of distractions on personal growth and productivity. They stress the importance of intentional information consumption and surrounding oneself with positive influences. Jeff shares strategies for minimizing distractions and achieving consistent success. They also discuss the benefits of personalized coaching over generic corporate training, emphasizing how tailored approaches can effectively develop leadership skills and foster genuine growth within organizations.

Episode NotesWelcome to another insightful episode of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. Tim Sweet hosts leadership coach Jeff Massone. Their conversation delves into the complexities of personal and professional growth, focusing on overcoming distractions and fostering positive influences. They start by dissecting the pervasive impact of social media and continuous news cycles on our mindset and productivity.
Throughout their discussion, Jeff underscores the importance of intentional relationships, urging listeners to surround themselves with supportive and motivating individuals. He provides strategies for minimizing negative influences both in professional settings and personal lives, emphasizing the concept of signal-to-noise ratio—where the key lies in filtering out distractions to prioritize valuable information. Tim and Jeff challenge conventional corporate training methods, advocating instead for personalized coaching that aligns with individual strengths and aspirations.
Drawing from insights in Marcus Buckingham's "Love and Work," they highlight the significance of understanding unique differences in job satisfaction. They explore Patrick Lencioni's team-building strategies, emphasizing their adaptability to foster deeper team cohesion and commitment. Ultimately, Tim and Jeff stress that effective leadership isn't about rigid adherence to rules but about cultivating individualized paths toward leadership fluency and competency. Through intentional choices and strategic focus, listeners are encouraged to navigate their leadership journey with clarity and purpose.
About Jeff Massone
Jeff Massone is a dynamic and accomplished leader with a proven 20-year track record as a project leader in corporate America, including professional training as a coach, trainer, and speaker on leadership through the John Maxwell Team.
Resources discussed in this episode:

• Love and Work by Marcus Buckingham
• Patrick Lencioni
• John Maxwell
• Good Will Hunting
• Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek
• TED Talks

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Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Jeff Massone | Prepared Leader Consulting 

• Website
• Instagram
• Facebook
• LinkedIn

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Transcript
Jeff 00:01
How do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows? And from not, you know, watching Social Media, yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development. You become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books because I have all my notes in them. They’re reminding me of a situation.


Tim 00:26
I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, area leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, welcome to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 37. 
Tim 01:00
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership podcast, I am really happy to be inviting a brand new friend that was introduced to me just a few days ago. But I mean, man, Jeff, we've hit it off, I think. Professionally, you and I are just, we're on the same wavelength.


Jeff 01:16
100%. I mean, we had talked the other day, I had kind of really wished we were recording at that point. But here we are today. And you know, really ready to dive in. 


Tim 01:26
The term you use, which I really loved was leadership geek, if we're going to geek out about something geeking out on leadership is one of my favourite things. So, when you and I had a chance to talk, I was really enthused by what you stand for, and how much it really fits with my own thinking. I've always said that the thing that fuels me and moves me forward is I hate watching people struggle. I hate watching people stuck. And you told me a little bit about distraction. Tell us all about that. What caused you to this work?


Jeff 01:57
It's so interesting. So, we live in such a distracted world, when you think about what we have to do as workers right? You know, whatever job that you have, you know, whether you have an office job, whether you're out doing construction, a teacher, cop doesn't really matter. You know, we have this ever-present social media, this phone, this leash that we have attached to us, that when you watch people, you're watching them scroll, right? They're just scrolling on social media, with no real purpose, right? And, you know, we know a lot of those distractions, you know, are actually making you angry, fearful, making you sad. And, you know, that's going to do nothing for what you're trying to do for your career. Right? So, that's number one. And then the kissing cousins that are is 24/7 cable news, you know, that does the same thing, the anger, the fear, the anxiety, the depression, and you know, it just takes your eye off the ball, right? You're trying to, you know, in my world, project management, you know, launch a new product, right? Or trying to come up with a new product design, no matter what you're doing in your world. There that distraction is, if you let it. I work with people, I tell them right away. So, why don't we do this? Why don't try this at least six weeks diet, have no social media just take it off? Right? Well, you know, I need to– no, you can have it on your computer, but just take it off your phone, right? Let's try that. Let's try not looking at the news for that same amount of time. And what you do is the best thing you can do is replace that time because you realize there's going to be a void. You're so used to reaching for that phone to look at Instagram or looking at LinkedIn or looking at Facebook. This time you’re like, Oh, there's nothing there. Once you replace it with a TED Talk.


Tim 03:35
Yeah. Something positive.


Jeff 03:39
Something positive that's gonna help your career. You know, for me, I'm sitting there, and I watch. I'm like, wow, you know, 24/7 News. You know, even the one in the left and the right, right, even though I agree with, it's not helping you be a better parent, right? It's not helping you be a better business owner, be a better team leader. It's helping you with exactly nothing.


Tim 04:01
So, really being intentional about where we direct our attention. And what we consume. My family is full of teachers, my sister has this great saying and she says little pots have big handles. And I don't think it's just kids, I think we have big handles too. And if we let the wrong something in, well, it can stay there. Or it can at least occupy space that could be better used. And one of the things that you'd said in our lead up to this and I know we're gonna get there again. But this distraction isn't just happening that's externally sometimes this can be distraction by the wrong tools or things that were handed within our pursuit of management, or leadership, or sales, or our own business. And there's things that are presented as answers, but they can also be distractions, they can also take us away from the things that are going to provide real value. And that's something that I really like that line of thought.


Jeff 04:58
For those that are listening here, you know, and obviously, we know, we're well aware that Tim and I are that way to be able to promote this yes, we have to use social media, right? You're going to be seeing, you know, some promotions on Instagram, you know, LinkedIn places. But at the same time, I've worked with people who, again, use social media, and that's how they make money. And they're not on the platforms save maybe a half hour in the morning and a half hour at night. Because they know that distraction that at least, so if people who are actively using social media to bring in money, and so they're putting food on the table, aren't engaging in the platforms all day long, that should tell you something, right? You know, often, they'll hire people, like if they're reaching out to you for their services, it's not really them, right? It's their team, even though it's under their name. So, again, be mindful of that fact that, you know, even in that case, that extreme case of usership on social media, they're not using it any degree that most people are using it today at this time. 


Tim 06:02
So, what I hear you saying is that we have to control and be mindful and intentional around what we're bringing in. And I like the phrase signal to noise ratio, we need to turn up the signal and the quality of those signals, and we need to really be mindful of and try to lessen the noise, right? And so we have all this external noise. When we think about coaching, and the pursuit of it, or the pursuit of personal development, career development, all of these things, what are some of the specific sources of noise that you encounter? And maybe I'll ask you first to talk about what's really common among people that you run into?


Jeff 06:45
The biggest source of noise is what I used to call it water cooler talk, right? You're kind of going to the water cooler, and you hear all the negative things that somebody feels about the company, somebody feels about their life. And, you know, that's, you know, again, doesn't serve you in terms of, you know, what's entering your mind. Other things, that's just really important. I mean, you have to guard what's going into your mind, you know, what a lot of people don't understand is, you know, that your thoughts, impact your emotions, your emotions, impact your actions, and then your actions then lead to your results. But what people don’t realize is, you know, what starts with the thoughts, I mean, you're being fed something. So, that's, we have to figure out like, what am I going to stop this? So yes, we talked about social media. Yes, we talked about 24/7 news. But then there's the negative people, right? So, who are you around, you know, in, you know, in your business or in the workplace, and are they you know, a positive force? Do you feel good when you've actually walked away with 10-minute conversation? Do you feel motivated? Or do you not? So, I mean, I think that's really, you know, something that's very important for people to understand, and I didn't realize it, right, you know, you go into, you know, you start a job, and then you kind of just kind of get around folks, and, you know, you have to stop that like, as soon as you start hearing something that's not positive, you have to go out and say, Alright, you know, let me just find a new tribe. Right? And that's just so that's just so important. Because you know, then it gets, you know, you have this other negativity that's getting in your head and that's hard. The hardest thing I'll say to Tim, is when the negative noise are your family and friends.


Tim 08:24
Oh, yeah, that can be rough. And as you were talking about whether it's at the home, whether it's at the watercooler you're saying, one of the characteristics of that negative talk that I've noticed a lot is that it can develop a life of its own, it can become this myth. And these stories, and these opinions that people forget where they come from, but they turn into these self-perpetuating doom tornadoes, and stigmas, and stories that people now have to contend with, when we don't even know exactly if they're based, in fact, any more, but they become the popular rhetoric because maybe it allows people to externalize other nerves and stuff that they're feeling. And so it fuels this thing like a really negative fire, and the ability to spot that, not contribute to it, and then pull oneself out of it is really important. But speak to me a little bit about this, because what I've noticed is when one chooses to pull oneself out of that, they can then incur the wrath of all the believers, right? They can then become the target and that often is enough motivation for people to stay at that water cooler and in that tribe. So, what do you suggest when a person feels exposed by trying to out the negative story? 


Jeff 09:47
There’s a certain finesse that you can do that. I mean, you certainly don't say wow, you're the most negative person I've ever heard, please never talk to me again. You just politely sort of like, you know, move on and then slowly kind of ween yourself off hard, right? Like, it's like you're not, you know, you'd be like, wow, like, you know what, what just happened there. And you just try to find yourself and this is hard, you know, I come from, you know, larger organizations, you know, fortune 500 pharmaceutical companies. And when we were in the office consistently, at least where I work, there was a lot of opportunity to just find a new tribe, you know, when you're in a really small company, that can be very, very difficult. Right? But, you know, in general, you know, what you're trying to look for is you're trying to get around folks that are where you want to be.


Tim 10:30
Yeah, what I say your success and your place in life is the sum average of those you choose to surround yourself. Right?


Jeff 10:37
Right? They usually say, I think it's like the average of the five people you hang out with, you know, and again, you so, it's almost like, you have to do it and like little silos, right? The workplace silo, and then like, you're outside of work silos. Like who are you hanging out with, you know, outside of work? Are you hanging out with strivers, right? You know, which is awesome, you know, are you hanging out with people that are just, like, happy to punch the clock, so to speak, and you know, get in/get out. We actually, you know, the best thing you can do is hanging out again, like I said, you know, if you're a business owner, you hang out with a business owner that's been doing it, you know, in his or her realm for, you know, 5, 10, 15 years and has scaled and has grown, and you're like, Oh, my God, you make what per month? You're not gonna have, you're gonna have much, you're just gonna have much different conversations. I think one of the things that I heard years and years ago, I think I said to John Maxwell, that was, you know, people are literally around the same table with the same people talking about the same thing. And they're wondering why they're in the same position in their life, particularly from a career perspective.


Tim 11:43
I mean, certain types of energies are like air and water for people. And I used to use the term water hole, because it was like, the water hole that I needed, the water that I needed to drink was different than other animals. I want to find people that are in search of the same water holes that I am, that are in search of tapping into those same energies. And so, for instance, I do a lot of work with startup companies. There's a specific energy around that. I do a lot of work with universities, there's a specific energy around that. And I do a lot of work in sports entertainment, sports event company, that is a specific type of energy. Now, they're all different venues and different spaces. But the energy that I get out of it, that I look for is this is a compatible waterhole for lack of a better word. And that water hole is not comfort. And that water hole is not safety. And that water hole is not leisure, that water hole is, you know, if I think about the mountain biking race company that I'm part of, find what's on the inside-outside is their tagline that speaks to me on levels that I can't even properly articulate all the time. So, look for those sources of people that are out for the same thing, that are fueled on the same sustenance, and are with you in the hunt, and with you in the gather. 


Jeff 13:08
Yeah, it's interesting. And I love how you gave those different examples, right of the startup or the university, you're not going to one specific avatar, right? But you know, the energy of the people that you're trying to get here, that positive energy, that energy of creation, right? You know, who you are around, right? Like, when you start talking to people, I love talking to successful business owners, right? It's a different energy than, say, a corporate executive. Right? And, you know, maybe the bank accounts look similar, right, in terms of their annual income. But it's so very different. When you talk to somebody who has, you know, started, like, you know, we're a startup, you know, then they're a company, and then they scale their company, and that they're continuing to grow, you know, because what they're doing, what they have done, you know, is they've got their own coaches to say, hey, you know, mentors, you know, to see how they, how can they get to the next level, okay, you know, we’re a six-figure company, and now we're a seven-figure company, eight-figure, and now we're trying to get to nine, right? And it's, you know, they don't just stop, you know, whereas, you know, as successful executive, you know, they fly to a certain level, right? And executive can mean different things to different people, you know, but, you know, maybe you're making, you know, 150, or 200. And that's where you'd like to live there. And then you're just kind of just there, right? You know, what are you making 300 or 400, as an executive, you're just kind of there, right? And if you're not looking to grow or scalel that you're just like looking to hold on to it, which is different. 
Tim 14:33
It's very different. 
Jeff 14:34
Then trying to grow something.


Tim 14:38
In the back catalogue, we've had two shows now with my good friend, Richard Young. Now Richard was on the Own The Podium committee for Canada and then the UK and then New Zealand, and he continues to run his practice out of New Zealand. Well, I mean, Richard is one of my favourite people ever. But his PhD and his research is all about what predicts a person from consistently meddling at the Olympics, or within higher sport competition, and a huge part of what Richard teaches is it's not about what we add, it's about what we let go of, you know, and many of the people that have worked with me will talk about the folly of additive logic versus reductive logic or transformation versus additive change. Anyway, when we look at the people we want to surround ourselves with, one of the hallmarks that I see in people that are moving easily in the strata that we want to achieve is that they're moving easily in the strata, they're moving, it's the path of least resistance for them. It's the thing that is that they've let loose of a lot of the preconceptions and the shoulds that a lot of popular business books or courses teach that you have to do. And they've just focused in on the right kind of signal, right? And they focused in on the things that that bring results. And that leaves them all sorts of room to be themselves and to believe what they're going to believe and go in and live their lives. Because they don't overcomplicate things, because they figured out that formula that they are enough. And often the people that are striving, which is a great place to be to strive, right? It's funny how often striving means doing less, it means getting to a point where it just feels easy. Or at least comparatively easy, I guess is what I would say.


Jeff 16:32
I love how you brought up, you know, I have to look into Richard Young and his work, you know, but as a consistent mentalist, I mean, my son is a competitive swimmer. You know, he's in high school level right now. And we're watching the US Olympic trials right now. And my guess is when this airs, it'll be the right before, right during the Olympics. Like when you see the people that this is their third trip, right? Like, what is driving that? Like, what are they doing, you know, like, quote-unquote, differently? You know, and people want to study that. And people want to hear from that, you know, and you're talking about a high-level elite athlete, or you're talking about, you know, a super successful business owner, business person like Bezos or Musk, right? Branson? Wow, like, you know, but people see the end, right? They don't see the unglamorous start, they don't see the equally unglamorous kind of middle. People see the end, right? And I think they get so end-focused, right? You know, you have folks who say, I want to be a VP by 30. Okay, for who do we want? You know, what are you looking to give up to be able to do that? So, it's, it's really interesting when you study excellence, and I also say to like, when you have those people, you know, those drivers, those super elite athletes, and it's no different than professional sports, and that, you know, here in the United States, NFL, or major league baseball, those elite athletes can pay, you know, 10s, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars to do a sport. The elite Olympic athletes are different. Yes, they get sponsorships and whatnot, the top of the top, most of them aren't getting anything.


Tim 18:07
There's not a lot of sponsorship for certain sports.


Jeff 18:10
Which means that after they're done, they gotta go do something.


Tim 18:13
Yeah, or do it while they're, while they're training and everything else.


Jeff 18:17
And I often think of like, I haven't seen a lot of elite athletes in a non-commissioned based role in corporate, you know, maybe somebody's hidden, once this is out could say, hey, you know, but I say that, because we don't have a meritocracy, right now, in the corporate world. People are getting promotions and whatnot, a lot of times for other reasons than accomplishing things. And I would imagine that, you know, the elite athlete trying to, you know, get into the corporate American watching this. It's a direct conflict, you know, with what it is that they've done throughout their young life, you know, and how they've achieved, you know, put in the work and achieved and then that's how you get, you know, your accomplishments. And that's not corporate America, it's more of the entrepreneurial world, right? I mean, what you're putting in and what you're getting out, high risk, high reward, but it's very different. You know, and it's just, I said that a while ago on the clubhouse app, you know, put it out to one of those clubhouse rooms, and people were just they sat there and thought they're like, yeah, that there was nobody in that room so to speak, that could come up with somebody that they knew that, you know, we're in a not again, non commissioned role, that I just don't think it exists because it's just diametrically opposed to their lifestyle. 


Tim 19:30
I think one of the the outcomes of this episode should be, I think we need to A. talk to our listeners who do you know, that has been elite in their sport and has managed to translate that into performance in business, or academically or some other pursuit? I do know that there are several people that I've been exposed to that have been ex-CFL football players or ex-NFL or Olympic people in everything from curling, to fencing, to, you know, but they've been achievement-focused to cycling, right? And the key with that, and it brings us to another sort of interesting crossroad here is that they were either lucky enough, or had guidance enough to be able to maintain their growth from a business professionals perspective maybe, but also had opportunities to join institutions and organizations that could see the value of their life experiences, and apply that into certain roles, rather than getting stuck on a tenure track of being a subject matter expert, which is why leadership is often a great place for these certain people to enter if they don't have a technical skill, or proficiency. But it raises an interesting point when we sort of circle back around to the focus that a person needs to maintain. There's so much in the area of team development and personal development, which is myopic on either a single answer, like so say it's a program. But that program assumes that you have a standard type of development through the beginning of your career, that you've gone to school, and you've got a degree and you've got all these things. And then there's this magic bullet process, which is suddenly going to answer everything. Whereas really, you know, one of the first key things that I note when I coach and facilitate to large groups is, people are all incredibly different, there will be no, this seems like a bit of a dumb thing to say. But when you have people that are starting from such different places from an education, experience, lifestyle, socio-economic, gender, could be race, can be all of these different elements that make them who they are. And we try to give them a vanilla product that's going to suddenly be translated, you know, it just doesn't work. I mean, scientifically, that's lunacy, we've got so many different variables that we need. Sure. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a good program, but then we need to go bespoke, we need to be able to customize or give them the tools to customize it to their needs.


Jeff 22:15
That's absolutely right. And I know, you know, in our previous conversation, I mentioned a book I just finished by Marcus Buckingham Love and Work. And, you know, he goes into a lot of topics, but one of them is the uniqueness of people. People are so unique that people in the same role love different things about it. In his book, he goes into housekeepers at Disney, you know, and interviewed them when he was with Gallup. Right? He was just trying to figure out, you know, like, okay, like, Well, what do you love about your job? Right, you know, and all the different things. So, when you extrapolate that to, you know, any job function, you see that uniqueness, and to your point, you know, this one magic pill, you know, one thing that I've seen in corporate is, you know, the onsite, you know, the two-day on-site training, or the off-site, you know, whichever way–


Tim 23:04
Pre-packaged, pre-scheduled, yeah.


Jeff 23:08
And it doesn't work. You know, corporations are spending, like six figures, depending on the size of the corporation, maybe even more to deliver this kind of, like, here it is, this is what leadership is, then they wonder why things haven't changed, people don't retain and it's proven, that, you know, once a couple of weeks have gone by, maybe they remember 17% of it, and then another couple of weeks after that, you know, 2%. You know, and then people just kind of go back to their normal ways of working, because that delivery model training, isn't transformative. Training is not transformative. And you know, when people think of it that well, okay, well, what should we do? You know, I had another conversation at a networking event. So, people like to check the box. So, a company so well, we provided them leadership development training, so good on us, right? If it didn't create better leaders, then what did you really provide? You know, and people don't realize, you know, coaching, right, coaching is really the modality that causes transformation. Unfortunately, you know, people don't see coaching, you know, beyond, you know, executive coach, right, you know, you have an executive that's deemed to be not a great leader. So, you know, give him, you know, an executive coach, so that, you know, he can brush up on his leadership skills and, you know, maybe show up better, you know, with his or her direct reports. You know, that's what people think about coaching is this remedial thing, you know, and, you know, you take a step forward, and you say, oh, wait a minute. You know, it's particularly from a leadership development perspective. If you offer group coaching, right, group coaching to individual contributors before they had the privilege of leading others. That's something different, and virtually nobody's doing that today. Right? People don't realize that that's something that can be offered. That's something that should be offered. A lot of it's on the coaches themselves, they go right to the executive because they know, they go right to the business owner. When I get it from a coach, that's what I'm gonna work with, because that's what pays the bills. So, but you're coaching for like a transformation. You know, one of the things I've said for years is, you know, the leadership development I've seen, you know, that's given a brand scholars to sales professionals call that leadership development to turn a buck. They say, alright, well, we'll give our sales professionals leadership development training, and you know, they're going to start selling 25% more, and this is great for the bottom line and makes all the sense. But in any given company, most companies are, you know, they're not sales professionals. Yeah, how about leadership development, to change a culture to really go in there and change the culture much like, you know, I just said the other day, Major League Baseball, right, has this farm system, right? And, you know, they decided to build their farm system, you know, because they want to compete consistently at the high level, you know, in five to seven years. You know, what I think companies should be doing today in terms of leadership and culture, is build their farm system, who's their farm systems, individual contributors that are out of college, out of graduate school, that aren't leading people that leading one soul you know, yet. It's the people who put through group coaching program for leadership development, you know, in a year format, and see, like, wow, these people are going to now be operating in a different level. And oh, by the way, prepared to lead others, once they're given the privilege, say, you know, what, I think this person can handle a couple of direct reports. But you know, what, I think she can handle her own team, or this one, you know, yes, team tomorrow, department, right, and entire department in two years from now. So, these are the kinds of things that nobody is doing, right? You know, people are promoted for reasons other than their, we think they're going to be a great leader. I mean, to me, people don't even know where leadership is, right? Leadership is a battery of competencies, a battery of dozens of different competencies. But people confuse leadership for, you know, as being a subject matter expert, because you're the kind of you know, in the company, well, then we need to promote you, you know, you're the greatest marketer, well then we need to promote you, that is necessarily mean, you're going to be a great leader of other people. That confusion of leadership and excellence, is, you know, I think what's gotten us down a wrong path, you know, and from a corporate perspective, at the very least.


Tim 27:30
When you think about it that way, and touching on a few of the points that you've brought up. Leadership is a battery of competencies. Yes, nd many different people with many different styles, different personalities, different backgrounds are going to deliver and emulate and express those competencies in very, very different ways. The competency is the outcome, it's not the way we get there. It's the ability to do something, it's not that you have to paint by number to do it a certain way. You have to find your way to do that. And, well, I think it's, you know, you'd said earlier that you can have groups that come together, and they like their job. And often, I mean, I just finished two more rapid normings, though, over the last couple of weeks. And I teach this, this portion called, The Wheel, where we have to talk about the six things that we have to identify as part of the team that we have to be talking about with employees and whatnot, so that they feel stable, who we are, what do we do? What do we care about today? Who's doing what? How do we behave? And why are we the team that's going to do it? And that's drawn from the work of Pat Lencioni. The issue and what Pat didn't touch on, is that everybody needs to connect to those things individually. Who are we as a team? It's a mix of people and histories and all this, why does that matter to me, and it's gonna be very different than why it matters to you. What do we do? And what do we care about? Why do those two things matter to me? And that's going to be very different than it matters to somebody else? What's our code of behaviour on? What's the role division and how we're aligning the work? And why are leaders believe in us? And why are those things important to me? Why do they make me feel whole when I'm in the workplace, and then take the work as a leader and as a leader of people, we have to coach this and mentor people into it. Do I both know and foster in everybody on my team a connection with the work not just the task, not just the paycheck, but what we're doing. And it doesn't have to be a deep connection in the sense of, you know, I'm a sanitary professional that goes around and picks up garbage. We can laugh at something like that. But for people that do that, and they do it long term, they can connect to other things. I like being outside. I like the movement. I like big, heavy machinery. I like getting a glimpse into people's lives. I like to earn a paycheck. I like to do a job that disgusts everybody else. It could be different for everyone else.


Jeff 29:54
It doesn't make sense to you. And that’s part of what Marcus says too, like it doesn't have to sense. 
Tim 29:58
Yes. What’s the connection?
Jeff 29:59
Absolute sense to the individual. You know, and I'm glad you mentioned Patrick Lencioni, too. And we've talked, you know, in this podcast, you know, I mentioned John Maxwell, we mentioned Patrick Lencioni mentioned Marcus Buckingham, you know, there's a theme here that I want the audience, you know, today's audience to listen to and say, understand that there's not this one thought leader that you just read the one author, right? There's so much truth in it, you start reading out and like I said, nerd out, on all of these authors, because there's going to be truths in there that you can apply directly to your career, right? And really, you don't just read it to get through it–


Tim 30:38
Read it for application. Where's the tool? 


Jeff 30:43
Right. Exactly. You read it for application. You know, how can I get better? Right? That's the screen. Like, how can I draw conclusions to that? And I think that's really where, you know, I want people to understand that how do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows, then from not, you know, watching cable news, social media. Yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development, start your own curriculum, you become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and I encourage you many different authors. And just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books, because I have all my notes in them, reminding me of a situation,


Tim 31:25
I was talking to somebody the other day about audible, and that I tend to buy the audible book and listen and buy the book. I buy both because I want the expedience of and the kind of listening experience of the audible book. But then I want to be able to go back, make notes, extract text, do all of those things with and have the tactile thing of having that reference material. I have an eclectic mix of books on my shelf. And I have a little spot that's for the ones that haven't earned their place yet. And every one of those books are books that I go back to again, and again and again because they are proper reference material. But an interesting thing I was going to bring up that, again, went back to what you were saying before, businesses often hire these trainers to come in. And that's really about adhering to a process and a certain, you know, paint-by-number approach, certain methodology. If a person is going to make use of that, and that can be good things coming into that too, or they're going to read things or whatever. As you said something earlier, something crystallized for me. As coaches, we're not there necessarily to help them learn to be leaders. In a way we're there to help them unlearn to be leaders. They've got to unlearn all of the useless stuff. And I like using the word fluency, get them fluent about themselves, how they want to be how they are today. So, that you can see the gaps that they have to go searching to fill. In a sense, they have to go, you know, if you're going to fill your toolbox, well know what tools you're short of, or know why you have each tool in the toolbox and make sure that it's you know, there's a place for everything and everything in its place. But that toolbox will be specific to you and your craft, and how you handle the tools, and how you approach the work. So, help them unlearn to be able to learn. Help them get fluent to be able to seek, you know, and that to me is is so critical when it comes to be the difference between you know, these program coaches who are largely trainers, they're going through a paint-by-number piece. I used to teach meeting skills and so I was very good at a very formalized agenda. And I ever used it, especially in my line of work, I now just have a list of outcomes, say, here's where we're going to get. And I've got a general approach in mind. But anticipate I will be calling an audible because I don't know what I'm dealing with until I'm in dealing with a group, until I'm in dealing with people, then I will start where they are, and I will craft for what they need. Not start with my agenda and my method, because otherwise, I'm not there for them. I'm there to deliver a commodity and that's not how I work.


Jeff 34:09
Yeah, no that's absolutely right. And I think, you know, it's understanding that difference between training and coaching. Like training as a delivery, coaching is a journey. As a coach, you want to be able to guide people through that journey. And it's a very, very different thing. And again, you know, what's great, what can be great about training, or we can be great about going to a conference is if it starts that journey, if it's a catalyst, right? It's just saying, hey, you know what, you know, I am going to commit to your meeting X amount of books on leadership, you know, this year, or I'm going to commit to going through a coaching program, you know, to find out like, how I can lead better, you know, because it's not only is it individualistic, it's also you know, based on the company itself, like you know, what's going to work you know, in, you know, your role today, you know, may not work, those leadership skills may not work in the same company in a different role. Right? So, that's why it's always this kind of journey to say, alright, you know, what got me here isn't necessarily what's going to get me there. And is that thing, that's what I tell people, you know, that the concept of building your leadership skills to the fidelity that you built, you know, whatever subject you went to school for, right? You know, you could be, you know, the best accountant in America, right? or Canada. Right? But, you know, what have you done to build your leadership skills to be at that level, that same level, right, you know, people think I need to get continuing education, so I can keep my project management certification, and they're, like, not even paying attention to it, you know, they're sitting there for, you know, the three days and they got, they got it. This is not that this is like really getting serious about it. And it's serious about the craft of leadership, but not taking yourself too seriously.


Tim 35:57
Well, the craft of self-development.


Jeff 36:00
You're right, it's not an I'm better than you scenario. Not in any way. It is, I've decided that I want to be a better teammate, or I want to be a better leader, you know, I want to be just grow to be, you know, a better version of myself. I mean, I know that that's, you know, can be sort of like that trait overused term. But the fact is, I mean, how many people are actually actively trying that and again, I had an event here in New Jersey, a couple of months ago, and I talked to it and one of the slides I threw up was a stock ticker, right? Your leadership development journey is going to look like a stock price, the up-downs, and hopefully, it's trending upward. But like, it's not about perfection, either. Like, you know, people think about, like, if I'm going to be a leader, like, you know, I have to be perfect, it's not about perfect, it's about trying to get better. And that's where people, that's where coaching gets into you, we never possibly ever get that from a leadership development training. And for those people in leadership positions now, that thought, like, oh they were doing right, you know, by providing this training, and then they're frustrated, because, you know, you spent all that money and it didn't work. Think about getting coaching for your team, getting that done, because that's really very, very important.


Tim 37:17
To wrap up here, the distinct differences, when you're realizing that coaching is the modality, not necessarily trained. Training is information-based. It's content, not context, coaching puts it in the context of the individual, and you're from New Jersey, but I often think of Beantown when I think about, I know, it's not super close, but anyway, it's closer than I am.


Jeff 37:41
Close enough. Same general type of person in North East.


Tim 37:43
But there's that scene in, in Goodwill Hunting, when he said, you know, you're gonna be sitting back, and you're gonna be looking at all your student loans, and you're gonna have a $400,000 education or something, and you're gonna realize that you could have learned all this with a buck 75 and late charges from the library. And, you know, information is not the problem here. And I've actually run into groups that come to me and say, Hey, we want to want you to put together a Leadership University for us. And I'm like, go on LinkedIn. Like you don't need me to generate content, the content is out there. What you need is you need people to learn how to steer their lives, to be able to source the right content, apply it well, and do it all so that both they win and their family wins and their career benefits and that they're in balance. And that we're not out of whack here, anybody can pick up a new idea and try to apply it as a bright, shiny thing, and sometimes destroy themselves doing it. Right? So–


Jeff 38:50
Absolutely, you know, and that's the thing too, like, people don't want to go to school anymore. Like they went to school already. And you know, something, you know, whether you finish in high school, college, graduate school or beyond, right? And then in corporations were given them more school, that's what training is, this is school again. You know, again, not only does it not work, people really don't want that. But like when you get them a coach, right? And again, you got to do your due diligence on coaches, right? If you're a business owner, or an executive thinking about getting a coach for your team, you know, and that coach has never had a coach before runaway because that tells you that they don't believe, you know, in the process of coaching, because if they did, you know, and they're asking you to spend money, because if they did, you know, they would have had coaches themselves. I know you have had several coaches, I have had coaches and continually like, you know, working with two guys right now, you know, and again, it's again to continue to improve like the, you know, the person that's got coached by me and 2023, you know, is a different coaching experience for those that are working with me right now in 2024. You know, and will be in 2025. The point is continually getting better at the craft of coaching, right, you know, so people need to understand that as well. I don't know in terms of that, again, that training piece, if people remember nothing else, and again, to all the folks that are listening to provide training, God bless you, the training does not work. I’ve been on the training end, both end up training, delivering training and receiving training, it just doesn't work. And coaching does–


Tim 40:23
Just, you know, ask anybody who spent money on a training scenario to go out and anonymously poll their group. And you'll find that some people, man, it was great, it's the best thing they've ever went through. And often the leader will have gone through the training, and think that this is just the bee's knees. Well, the reason was, the leader was ready for that piece of information at that time, and it was very useful for them. But that doesn't guarantee that 90% of anybody else in that call is ready or can use that information. The information doesn't steer it, you’ve got to start where people are. And as you say, it's the journey, and the ability to go through that journey. 


Jeff 40:58
And too, the content is there like and that's one thing we talked about, I just want to kind of give the opinions here the content, there's been content, oh, just since 1990, right? Like how much leadership development content is there. But yet the workplace still sucks. People will hear Simon Sinek, “Leaders Eat Last,” and say this is the greatest thing in the world, and not behave in any way of how he's describing but they listened to his


Tim 41:22
Got the certification, check. 
Jeff 41:25
Right, they showed it to their team and say now that they quote him at a town hall. 
Tim 41:29
Bought everybody a copy. 
Jeff 41:30
That in reality, they're not acting like him. So, again, the content is always there, you can go out there and learn yourself, you know, you get an education yourself that self-learning, whether it is you know, the TED Talk videos on YouTube, go on YouTube, search, leadership development, get the books, but again, the only way that it's really going to kind of move the needle for you and your team is through coaching.


Tim 41:53
Yeah, if you've hold the row for that particular seed to take plant. Take route, here we go. So, we're going to wrap up, I want to thank you very much for opening up to us. I love where we're headed. I think we're gonna have to book another one because I think we've got lots more to talk about, I think we could dive deep on some of these issues. For sure. We've got a couple of traditions here, as we close up and people who have heard these before, the first thing I want you to tackle. So, we have a question from Rita, who joined us last episode. And this is gonna get bombed at you. But don't worry, you're gonna have a chance to bomb a question at the next person. Rita asks, what is the advice you would give your newly minted self if you were just entering the workforce? And you wish you had had that advice when you started?


Jeff 42:43
Absolutely, you know, I think about this a lot. And from my perspective, it is really get around the right people. Now, explain what we explained at the beginning of the podcast is getting around people of who've achieved where you want to go. And if you're starting to hear people in your workplace that are negative, you know, just politely kind of distance yourself from them, you're not better than them, you just don't need to hear negative things. That's exactly what I would tell my younger self is that, again, leadership development is not about being better than your coworker. It’s not about being better than your neighbour, it's about being the best version of yourself and adding value to other people. So, that's exactly what I would say, just get around the right people, get away from negative people 
Tim 43:27
Choose that focus. 
Jeff 43:29
Put yourself on that focus. 


Tim 43:33
Yeah, right. Love it. If you were to have a wish, for anybody who is listening that they're going to take away from this podcast, what would you wish for people be?


Jeff 43:44
Honestly, I wish people, you know, to disengage from all the negativity that is out there in social media in 24/7 news, it is not serving you guys in any way, shape, or form. Those things are there to honestly make money for the advertisers that advertise on there. So, you know, if you can just remove yourself, you know, live like it's 1980. Right, you know, and again, not hiding your head in the sand. I'm not suggesting that, but you just don't need to take in this kind of content. And it will it will change your world. No question about it.


Tim 44:17
Without going down this path. But we can talk about it a little later. We just had an announcement here in Alberta that the public school system now is going to ban social media apps and personal devices during the school day.


Jeff 44:29
That's awesome. There's a couple of governors here that are doing the same and we're going to try to see what we can do in New Jersey for that because it's–


Tim 44:36
We've got the data now yeah, we know what's we'd like to think of ourselves as adults but we are learning beings and we are just as prone to that. Okay. If I was to ask you a question you want answered from the next leadership, visionary, what would it be? 


Jeff 44:56
Sure, absolutely. So, I would say, you know, what, do you want to be known for as your leadership legacy?


Tim 45:03
I love that question. I think I would actually add on to that and say, what do you want to be known to as your leadership legacy? And how can we help other people find out what they want to be known in their leadership? You know, how can we actually create that for others? But I am very curious to ask that question. In both phases. If you don't mind, I'm going to tack that one on because like, it's a great one. 


Jeff 45:24
No, attack that on, absolutely. 
Tim 45:27
Jeff, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show today. And I hope you had a lot of fun. 


Jeff 45:33
Tim, it's been great. And I can't wait to come back because I feel it percolating, like another 30-40 minutes of, you know, a completely different interview. And I'm looking forward to when we can do that.


Tim 45:44
Oh, no. 100%. Well, let's look more for Jeff in the feed. And to all of you out there listening. Thank you very much for taking the time to invest in yourself. And Jeff, we'll see you again real soon. 
Jeff 45:53
All right. Take care, Tim. 
Tim 45:53
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim Sweet welcomes back Rita Ernst, an esteemed organizational psychologist and founder of Ignite Your Extraordinary. They discuss the detrimental effects of comparison in the workplace and the importance of cultivating a growth mindset. Rita shares insights from her career, and her book, "Show Up Positive," focusing on creating fulfilling and joyful work environments. Join us as we explore strategies to combat discontent and maximize every experience on your professional journey.

Episode Notes
In this engaging episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim Sweet welcomes back organizational psychologist Rita Ernst. Rita, the founder of Ignite Your Extraordinary and author of "Show Up Positive," delves into the detrimental nature of comparison in the workplace. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining a growth mindset and extracting value from every experience, regardless of current job satisfaction.
Rita shares personal anecdotes from her career, highlighting moments of discontent and the inner critic's role in fostering negativity. She offers practical advice on recognizing and challenging these detrimental thought patterns, ultimately guiding listeners toward a more positive and fulfilling professional life. This episode is for anyone seeking to enhance their workplace experience and personal growth.

About Rita Ernst
Rita Ernst is a distinguished organizational psychologist with over 15 years of experience in corporate roles focused on organizational development, performance management, and human resource development. She is the founder of Ignite Your Extraordinary, a consultancy dedicated to designing workplaces people love. Rita is also the author of "Show Up Positive," a book aimed at helping individuals and organizations recover from the pandemic's impact and cultivate healthier, more joyful work environments. Her passion lies in fostering human-centred leadership and creating spaces where employees thrive.

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• LinkedIn: Team Work Excellence

Contact Rita Ernst | Positivity Influencer, Author, Consultant: 

• Website: igniteextraorindary.com
• Instagram: @igniteextraordinary
• LinkedIn: Rita Ernst, Positivity Influencer
• Book: Show Up Positive by Rita Ernst

Transcript
Rita 00:01
Are you maximizing each experience? You know, you may not be where you want to be yet. And this experience may not be the best experience. But that doesn't mean that you can't take something of value out of it. So, every step that you go, is an opportunity to learn and grow, if you have that mindset.

Tim 00:26
Do you rely on others to set a vision and then give them what they need so that they can achieve something they never would be able to do on their own? Whether or not you formally lead a team. If this sounds like you, then you, my friend, are the definition of a leader. And this show is all about bringing you new insights from real people that you've never been exposed to. So, you can grow and increase your impact on the world and feel more fulfilled while you're doing it. I'm Tim Sweet and you're joining us now for episode 36 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, welcome. 

Tim 01:03
Hey, everybody, it's Tim here. And I want to say welcome. I also want to welcome a repeat guest. This is Rita Ernst. Rita, always happy to have you, it's always such a positive experience to have you come into my space. And I just can't wait to play again with you. Rita was one of our very early guests. It was two episodes. So, make sure you check out the back catalogue because it's excellent. But for those who haven't been exposed to the brilliance of the jewel, that is Rita Ernst, Rita, could you give us a little bit about yourself, please? 

Rita 01:36
Thanks for inviting me back to Tim. It has been a bit of a minute since I got to be with you on the show. But we love to talk. 

Tim 01:44
We're out a year almost exactly. 

Rita 01:44
Probably, so but yeah, we both love to talk. So, this will be a chock-a-block full. I will work on conversations go. But it's good to hear I'm on stay on brand good to know I stay on brand. So, I am an organizational psychologist, that's been my entire career. I spent the first 15-plus years working in traditional corporate roles, doing a lot of organization development, work performance management work, human resource development work, and then I decided to extricate myself out of corporate life temporarily. And that sort of became permanent. And I started my own business called Ignite Your Extraordinary, my focus is still on using my organizational psychology skills to design workplaces people love. I mean, if we just come to the short of it, that's really what is all about. We spend 90,000 of our waking hours in our lifetime in the workplace. And I just believe those need to be happy, productive, fulfilling hours. That's what I want for myself. That's what I want for my parents. That's what I want for my siblings, for the people that I care about my life, I want them to be in a workplace that they love, and that loves them back. And I want to help people learn how to create those spaces. 

Tim 03:02
I think finding a workplace where you can really at the end of the day, love the time that you spent there. I think even loving the people that you're spending that time with to a certain extent, and we don't like to talk about that a lot. Professionally, love is never fully on the balance sheet. But I think it's important to find connection with the people that we're spending all of this time with. And I am now and have always been a big fan of that and the efforts that you put forward in educating people. So, I want to make sure that we let people know that they can also follow up with you. And we're going to tell them a little bit more about that at the end of the program. But for right now, when you and I were getting ready to hit the record button here. It's interesting, you're at a very, very neat crossroads in your professional career. You're an author, you have multiple writings out now. And you're finding more and more influence around the globe, you're finding that the interest is starting to go beyond the Pacific and the Atlantic. And I'm so excited for you that that is now a new chapter that's opening up for you. And I think that that's excellent. But as we were considering that, that work, and those pursuits can sometimes come at a great cost. And we push ourselves into certain areas. And so I thought it was fascinating and this is where I'd like to take us that when we set big goals like that. We have to be conscious that we don't sacrifice too much of ourselves or other areas of our lives while we do that. So, maybe you could tell me a little bit in terms of when you started to set the goals that were most meaningful for you in life. What types of things jumped to mind? What were the things that you wanted to accomplish, and are so far on track to do so? 

Rita 05:00
Well, I fell in love with psychology and found the application of psychology in business when I was in high school. In Organizational Psychology, this was before positive psychology really had a lot of traction. You know, if I were going to do another degree, now, I probably get a degree in positive psychology. But I'm not volunteering to go back to school. So, that's not going to happen. That's not on the game plan. But because I love psychology so much, you know, I knew the work that I wanted to do, I knew I wanted to go in and help businesses be more effective. I've always believed in human-centred leadership. But we're not turning people into machines, or asking them to check their brains at the door, we are taking humans and all that is humaneness, and figuring out how to maximize that individually and collectively in a workplace. And so that's just been my passion. But I did have an experience a formative experience internationally that really gave me the bug, I wanted to work internationally. And I got to do a little bit of that, and my second last corporate job, and then my husband and I decided to start a family. So, at that point, I knew I didn't want it to do a lot of international travel, that's very difficult on your body, and it's difficult on your family. And I sort of put that aside. And now I've got a college graduate since we talked, and my oldest daughter is entering her senior year of high school. So, our family life is moving into a place where I've decided that I really want to pursue that opportunity to work and serve audiences internationally again. And so I feel like I'm just sort of coming full circle again. But I feel so blessed that I've been able to pace my career in my life, it is a place of privilege, not everybody could do all the things that I've done. Not everybody has the privilege of being able to step out of a corporate job that's giving them health care benefits, and 401k matches and those kinds of things. If you don't have a spouse, for example, if you're single parent really hard to do that. So, I do recognize I have a lot of privilege in where I am sitting right now. But it is fun to be coming full circle. And so my daughter, I've got one more year before she heads off to college. So, I'm not looking to be jumping deep into a lot of international travel, I want to really enjoy this last year that we have together with her in my home, but it's on the horizon. You know, I need to start building the groundwork, making the connections, finding the opportunities. And so I'm always sort of playing a little bit of a long game. When I made all of those early decisions. I didn't see this coming up. But it is fun to see that this opportunity is emerging and passions that I held at such a young age, I didn't completely step away from them, I just stepped aside of them for a while. And now I can merge back in. 

Tim 7:57
It's interesting that you're at that point where you're in a season of your life where things are becoming possible again, and I think that sets us up for a great conversation because it hasn't been necessarily right until now. Now that it's opening up and it's happening. But you know, speaking to you and understanding sort of how you've come through this, and how both of us are developing professionally. And I share a lot of the goals and the tensions that you experienced, up to that point when it wasn't quite there. And this is now open to you again. But the motivation necessarily for you to be moving into these spaces was still there. It was simmering, or it was still smouldering under the surface. But it was the right time to do it. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship with that? 

Rita 08:49
Yeah, I mean, I would say to Tim that it wasn't even necessarily conscious, right? So, in 2022, just to catch up with listeners who didn't catch our earlier episodes, in 2022, I wrote a book called Show Up Positive. That was based on the consulting work that I did during the pandemic. And when I wrote that book, I wasn't thinking, Oh, this is a parlay into international work. What I knew is I wrote this book because I had a message that I wanted to get into more people's hands to help people repair a damage done by the pandemic in their workplaces, get on to a path of healing, that would bring back more joy and fulfillment for everyone in the workplace. And a book is one of the ways that you can get information out to way more people right, than just people trying to find me. So, I wrote the book and I knew I was going to start positioning myself to take the stage at conferences and stuff, that having a stage presence would enable me to get more connections and more people get the message out further. I'm very passionate about the work that underpins show a positive, and the show a positive movement, which is about bringing workplaces back into this place of healing and health and well-being. And I didn't really construct that. But as I've gotten into this, I see, and it's like, oh, yeah, I used to love that, like, I want to do that more. I actually love being on stage and speaking at big conferences and stuff. And I get very nice reviews from people that just affirm and make me want to do more of it. But designing and delivering is something that makes me happy. So, it's really awesome when you have a career that fills your heart. And when you stay open, I have this larger intention, I have this larger goal or purpose of serving into the world, and leaving people in a better place. And I just keep following that path. And then other interesting things come about, but I do think there is a certain level of openness that you have to maintain for that. If I made the decision of like, oh, as soon as my kids are out of the house, while my husband and I are both gonna retire. We're older parents. So, we could theoretically be saying that, and I'm not going to be doing this work anymore, when none of that would be in place. But I love my work so much. I'm like, I got at least another decade in me that I want to keep working, I'm not ready to shut this down, I'm having too much fun. 

Tim 11:36
I'm glad you're in a state of flow with it. I'm glad that it's coming as it comes and it's the right time for this. I think it's exciting when new opportunities are opening up. And they're feeling like they're right there. And I'm also I would say privileged to be in that state of flow with my career, and the rest of it. But so many people that I talk to and I meet, they are not there, they are not in a position where they feel that work is where they should be. Work is getting them where they want to be. They're not finding that they are moving at a pace that is right for them. This must impact the ability to show up positively at work and feel like I know why I'm here and I know where this is going. Or at least I'm comfortable with where it's taking me and the path of least resistance is a great path to be on. What are some of your experiences? Or what do you see, being typical when a person is not fortunate? Like we are, to be feeling that we’re heading in a trajectory that makes sense.

Rita 12:38
I think if you had your north star, if you know your purpose and your intention where you want to take your career, what experience that you want to have, you know, one time I thought, Oh, maybe I want to be the Chief Human Resources Officer somewhere or hold a position in the C suite. And then life took me kind of in a different direction. And I'm like, Okay, I can't even imagine being in that role or doing that job. Like that wouldn't be gratifying to me anymore. But there was a point in my career where I thought that would be kind of gratifying to me. So, you know, what I would say is, you know, once you know where that is, then the question is, are you maximizing each experience? You know, you may not be where you want to be yet. And this experience may not be the best experience. But that doesn't mean that you can't take something of value out of it. So, every step that you go is an opportunity to learn and grow, if you have that mindset. So, it's that growth mindset that we talked about a lot, right? If you come to every opportunity with a growth mindset, you will walk away with something that will advance you closer to the place you want to be. That's what I think. 

Tim 13:58
Sure. That's great. I will press a little bit because I know that a lot of people feel that that growth mindset is escaping them. It's not there. And I mean, I think that people can be really tough on themselves, they can really start to fear that they're not growing, that they're stagnating. You know, and one of the things that I noticed is that often that feeling is not predicated by where they find themselves situationally, but how they're conceptualizing where they are. Right? And you and I talked a little bit before about relative comparison and seeing, you know, I should be further along. I really should be doing more with this talent that I have, or I should be reaching a greater level sooner than I am now. Could you walk me into a little bit about how that influences that thinking of people staying in the growth mindset or staying positive about where they are and where they're headed? And having the energy then to strive, or continue to feel love for their job, or their vocation? 

Rita 15:09
I want to talk about a little bit of history for me, and then maybe where I am currently in my business. So, when I was in corporate, most of my corporate jobs that I left, I loved the company, I loved what I was doing. I was learning, I was growing, until that moment when I wasn't or I felt like I wasn't. And it's hard when I reflect back on that, it was hard in the moment, and it's hard now to even exactly name what it is. But you know, now that we have this term, quite quitting, be less engaged. I mean, before I made the leap from one company to the next, I definitely felt that shift in my own engagement that was happening. And it was happening because of exactly what you're talking about. It was happening because we have this storyteller that lives inside of our head, called our inner critic. And our inner critic is an awesome storyteller, but kind of a OneNote storyteller, in that the inner critic never notices all the good things that are happening, the inner critic just tells you all the things that aren't happening, or that are problematic about what is or is not happening. And so that's where our personal discontent comes from. And discontent is the enemy of feeling positive at work. And so, good for you, listener if you're noticing your discontent because so many of us fall into a habit of discontented thinking that we don't even recognize because the tricky thing about our inner critic, is our inner critic blames everything outside of us. So, it's our discontent is not anything to do with us. It's because of our circumstances. It's because of this person. So, why did that person get promoted? I worked just as hard. I've been here longer, I should have gotten promoted. Why did that person get the job? Why did that person get a bigger raise than I got? You know, a lot of companies now have transparency of pay. Or why is that person making more money than I am making? You know, whatever it might be, in the kind of roles that I held up, for me a lot of times it was more of the like, where is the leadership of this organization, steering the ship? Why are they making those decisions? And do I feel confident about the direction that we are headed as an organization? I mean, things like that would create my discontent. And honestly, there are times when the right thing for you to do is to leave, when you're experiencing that discontent, that is a signal, it's like putting your hand on the hot stove, right? And you don't just leave it there, to get fourth-degree burns, right? You like you feel the hot stove, you pull your hand back, you're like, oh, signal there, I don't touch that that's hot. Do not touch that, you know, sometimes we are getting legitimate signals that are like it's hot, it's time to move on. Sometimes we're just caught in our own internal stories. And when you can't move on, when you're in a situation where the timing isn't right for you to abandon this job because you need the benefits. Or you need the convenience between your children's school and your work so that you can make the carpool thing work, you know. I mean, there's all kinds of crazy stuff right in our lives that dictate or limit some of our choices. And so when you're in that place, you can just stay in your discontent and despair. Or you can start to challenge the thinking of that critic, you know, and decide what you can influence, what you can change, what you want to make different in your life. And so, I've certainly gone through places and stages in my corporate job, where I started to have doubt or concern, or jealousy over again, that comparison, comparing myself to other people, sometimes not even in the same company. I would have a friend from graduate school that was working for a different company. And they would say, Oh, I got a senior director role. And I'm thinking well, why am I not a senior director yet? Maybe I should be a senior director. You know, all of these things get planted inside of your mind, should I be looking for a senior director role? What would that be? Where would I go? But you know, their situation is not my situation. Their company is not my company. You know, if you talk to somebody and ding, ding, ding, if you have not figured this out already, at least in the US, if you talk to somebody that works at a bank, that you went to school with and they said, I'm the VP of something that's like just a general title, every person working in a bank seems to, if you're not a teller, you're probably a VP of something. That whole thing about comparison is the enemy is so correct. So, there are all kinds of things that can lead to our discontent. But comparison was always a big one that I noticed in my life, and now in my business. And as I think about and plan for the future, as an author of multiple books, you know, there are a lot of messages and signals out there that tell me, I should be making seven figures and I should be selling millions of books, and I should have a million followers on my social media channels. And I should have, you know, so much inbound lead generation that's coming in that I don't have to work, and those messages are everywhere I got people hit me up all the time that wants to sell me something, teach me how to do something. And if I'm not careful, I could get caught up in that comparison. I have to trust that the timeline I'm on is the timeline I am meant to have. 

Tim 21:14
Yeah, it's the timeline you're on. It's such a huge part and if I think back to what you've shared so far, which I think is great, we all have the story, we all have these choices that we've made. And we tend to minimize the quality of the decisions that we've made in the past. And if not the quality of the decisions, the conviction with which we've made them and said, you know, for me, we're going to choose that we're going to have kids, and we're going to now embark on a life that has that as one of the influences, one of the underlying designs. And that is going to now flavour every decision that comes past this. And we made a decision nobly and with a lot of conviction, and it's come with a lot of great benefits. And it's come with some trade-offs. But to then compare our subsequent decisions to what other people are doing or where they've gotten, it's very easy to see individual facets of their achievement, not looking at the other portions of their lives where they've had either circumstances that allow them to operate in certain ways or choices that allow them to operate certain ways. And so we begin to sort of zero in on one aspect of another person's life that we want, while disregarding everything else. And so, that story, that inner critic that you're talking about, that leads us to that point of saying, wait a minute, we don't have enough power, or we're not as far along as we should be. I was reminded of attribution bias when you were saying that, you know, there's that thought, when I'm rolling down the road, if somebody cuts me off, it's because let's say if I merge sloppily into another lane, I can say to myself, well, it's because I am late to pick up my kid and people around me will understand because everybody makes a mistake once in a while. But if somebody else does it, it's like, moron, that guy has a character flaw that allows them to not concern themselves about me at all. And neither of those statements are entirely true. But they're simplified. And so we jump to it. And we think that that's the truth. And in the same way, if we're comparing ourselves to someone else, or if we're looking at a position within a job, it's that what I heard you say was, there's this inner critic or this, it could be like, we talk about the imposter or whatnot. We don't have the power, we need to go where we want to go. If we turn that into a compelling reality that we can't escape, and we cannot make any other kind of choice or see any kind of leverage in the situation then likely it's time to go. Because you are simply resigned yourself to the fact that you have no way out of this. 

Rita 24:06
There's a conversation that says, like, take a celebrity like Angelina Jolie or somebody like Oprah Winfrey, well, they have the same 24 hours in a day that you have and look at all they get done. But it's not true. Like we've we've debunked that myth, right? You can look at somebody else's life and the results that they're getting and you can make all kinds of assumptions, but to your point, you don't really know the reality behind that.

Tim 24:33
Gross oversimplification. 

​Rita 24:35
And they may be making trade-offs that you would never make. I didn't want a full-time nanny. I wanted to be home and raise my kids. That's a trade-off that I made. Whereas, other people would, you know, do something different, the amount of investment that you're willing to make in your education and other things. So yes, comparison is the thief of joy, because we do not really understand the whole structure, the whole system around that. And we make all kinds of assumptions. And at the end of the day, if we can leave you with no other message, learn to trust yourself and trust your path. You can have honest dialogue, I do with myself all the time, you know, if I want to be working internationally, in what's my time horizon? And what's going to allow that to happen? Well, I've got to make connections, I've got to start finding speaking opportunities. I got to find people that opened doors for me, well, am I following through on those things? Then I'm taking action, the fact that I don't have things locked and loaded and ready to go doesn't mean that I shouldn't trust myself, or then I'm not making progress. 

Tim 25:48
Yeah, you’re not working as hard as you can work or to the best of your ability. And it's so easy to really criticize oneself. And we had played with the idea of patience and being patient with oneself. Well, if you're judging yourself compared to somebody else's pace, that could be really a recipe for disaster. Often, when I'm coaching people, I say, you know, you gotta be fluent in who you are. Because the tractor may be jealous of the Ferrari Testarossa. But if the task is to pull a plow, you don't have the right torque ratio in a Ferrari, to pull the plow, you have to trust yourself that if you've chosen the right vocation, the right field, you've got the right torque ratio and tire set and everything else, traction to do what you need to do. And to second guess ourselves constantly is really, it can be debilitating. And so, rather than patience, rather than comparison, maybe we focus on calibration and saying, am I right for the road that I've chosen to be on? Am I happy with how I'm performing on this road, because I chose not to go into a stream that would have seen me go up to a C suite, I've chosen to coach to the C suite. And I'm highly satisfied with that I'm in my 50th year, that that was the path that I took. If I compare myself to someone else, suddenly it's very unfair to the choices that I've made and the joy that I've derived from them. And yeah, it's a trade-off. But some of those were tough. But I think that that trust itself is a really big one.

Rita 27:28
I love your word calibration. I mean, I think calibrating is absolutely it's your own goals. It's your own journey. And really self-monitoring and calibrating where what is reasonable. You know, my father, I was posted about this week, he is now on his third cancer journey. So, now, part of my calibration is making time to make sure that I'm there to support him during this time, that changes a little bit of what my pathway looks, it doesn't mean I have to abandon things. But I might need to recalibrate. 

Tim 28:06
Yeah. And don't judge yourself against Beyonce or Brene Brown or somebody else who does not have the same contextual experience. They're not where you are. So, trust yourself, you know where you are. And if you don't, you better find out. A couple of things as we wrap up here. So, if you were to have one wish for anybody listening today, what would it be? 

Rita 28:28
So, my wish is that you would really tune in and develop that trust in yourself, step away, give yourself permission to step away from the comparison. Stop, my wish for you is to stop looking at all of those adversaries that you're seeing on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn that are telling you, you're not enough that you need to be more and more and more that whatever you're doing, you should be making more money, you should be driving a nicer car, you should be living in a better house, whatever it should be. Somebody else's more doesn't have to be your more. I have firmly rejected those things. And I would encourage you to do the same. And a proof that I can give to you is I know somebody that coaches people like Tim and I to build their businesses. And this person is now telling the story about how they were working so hard that they gave up time with their kids that their home life tanked all of these things to get to their multimillion-dollar business. I never wanted to give up all those things to get to that business. So, I don't have a multi-million dollar business. But yes, that mean honestly saying this is what it took and this is what it costs me. You are the only person that knows the cost equation that makes sense in your life. And you got to trust yourself to pay attention to that.

Tim 29:52
Absolutely. A previous guest had asked the question, by the way since you've been on we have this new tradition and that is, you get et to lob a question of your own at the next guest. As you give a quick answer to the lobbed the question of the past guest. So, Julie Friedman-Smith asked the question, how do we find the courage to do the hard thing? And I think we're in a perfect position to answer this right now. 
Rita 30:19
Well, I truly believe that courage is not overcoming your fear, but moving forward, despite your fear. And so I think the way that you find the courage is that you trust you believe in yourself, you draw upon the best resources around you that you can, and you take a first step and you forgive yourself, for the times that you falter. You can lift yourself back up out of that, and let go the expectation that it's going to be perfect, or that there is this clear and clean, perfect path. Sometimes we just have to be the adventurous spirit that is going to make a lot of mistakes along the way, but eventually, they will get to where we want to be. 

Tim 31:03
I love that. I love that you said draw on the resources around you. And listen to yourself and believe in yourself and believe in the resources around you and allow you to don't discount them. Excellent. Excellent answer. Closing minutes here. Where can people find you? 

Rita 31:19
Well, I have to give you a question first, right before– 

Tim 31:22
You do. Thanks. That's why you should be in charge. 

Rita 31:24
Wait, wait, I was supposed to give you something else. 

Tim 31:26
Yeah, sorry. Oops. 

Rita 31:28
Yeah, question to pass on to the next person would be, what is the advice you would give to, as I've gotten a newly minted graduate, If you could look backwards and talk to your newly minted self coming out of college, starting your career, knowing where the landscape is now, what advice would you give, to help them find their path to happiness and well being at work? 

Tim 32:00
Great question. And I will revel in the answer that the next person gives.

Rita 32:07
I’m gonna have to now have to get to listen. So, that's how you get us listening and making sure we're listening to multiple episodes. 

Tim 32:13
Now we're developing. It's so great to see this. Well see this community of people have been on this podcast cropping up. I really love it, because they're so supportive, and they're so helpful towards each other. So, it's great. Okay, now the question. Mindful. 

Rita 32:38
So, find me at igniteextraordinary.com. It's all one word igniteextraordinary.com That is my handle. Well, Facebook just temporarily took my site down. So, I don't know maybe on Facebook, on Instagram, I'm @igniteextraordinary. On LinkedIn, I'm Rita Ernst Positivity Influencer. So, it's pretty easy to find me when you just add that positivity influencer. And you can find my book Show Up Positive is in print, digital and audio available anywhere that you buy your books. 

Tim 33:04
100%. We will include links to all of those in the show notes. Rita Ernst, it has been my pleasure to have you come on and spread your particular brand and positivity, which I love. Thank you so much for spending time with me, touching the lives of the people that are listening, and really putting yourself out there as an example of how to make those hard choices. 

Rita 33:26
I love this conversation. Thank you for inviting me back, Tim. 

Tim 33:31
No problem. I can't wait to see what's next, Rita.

Tim 33:38
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: In this insightful episode, Tim responds to the most compelling questions submitted by listeners over the past year. A major theme explores permitting yourself to make big changes. Tim dives deep into topics such as recognizing and navigating career slumps, the evolving nature of skill sets in rapidly changing industries, and how to pursue passion in your career. For those balancing leadership roles with creative ambitions, Tim offers guidance on re-engaging with your passions without sacrificing your career progress.

Episode Notes
In this insightful episode, Tim responds to the most compelling questions submitted by listeners over the past year. A major theme explores permitting yourself to make big changes. Tim dives deep into topics such as recognizing and navigating career slumps, the evolving nature of skill sets in rapidly changing industries, and how to pursue passion in your career. For those balancing leadership roles with creative ambitions, Tim offers guidance on re-engaging with your passions without sacrificing your career progress.
Tim shares practical advice on determining whether it's time for a career shift or if you're just in a temporary slump. He also tackles the challenges of feeling obsolete in an automated world and provides strategies for reassessing your career path. Lastly, he discusses the complex interplay between career progression and family life, providing ideas for maintaining balance and fulfillment in both areas.

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Transcript
Tim 00:34
Do you rely on others to set a vision and then give them what they need so that they can achieve something they never would be able to do on their own? Whether or not you formally lead a team. If this sounds like you, then you, my friend, are the definition of a leader. And this show is all about bringing you new insights from real people that you've never been exposed to. So, you can grow and increase your impact on the world and feel more fulfilled while you're doing it. I'm Tim Sweet and I want to welcome you to the Sweet on Leadership podcast. This is episode 35. 

Tim 01:10
Hey, thanks for joining me, this week, it's going to be just you and me, we're going to be flying solo, somebody had come to me and said that they really liked the direction that the podcast is heading. And one of the things that they noticed is that everybody that's been on, it seems to have this really clear sense of who they are and what they do. And they have been able to take a big bold step, and change their life up. And they encouraged me to do an episode where we talk about giving yourself permission to make big change. What is it we need to do in order to shake ourselves up and to seek something better? So, what I've done is I've gone through some of the best questions that I've received over the last year, and there are dozens of them, and I narrowed it down to 10. And I'm hoping to get through five, maybe more today, if we can. Give you a bit of the response that I would have provided the person writing, and then build on those. So, if you're one of the people that have contributed these questions you're going to know, and thank you very much for listening. Thank you to all of you. Without listeners, this podcast doesn't have much of a purpose, does it? So, I'm really happy to find out that you're getting value from it, that you're enjoying the eclectic mix of leadership experts, and insightful visionaries that we've got joining us every week, and I can't wait to bring you the next 30 episodes. So, let me start off by saying, my goal in life has always been to not have people struggle. Nothing bothers me more than when I come into a relationship with a person and I understand that they've got something in their life that just really is, not just hard, but it's routinely hard. It's this pattern of struggle that they've got. When I work with teams, I look for the same thing. Where do we have patterns of unnecessary struggle? Work should be challenging, work should be hard, we should be applying ourselves and we should be enjoying taking our skills to difficult problems and projects and making them better. But working with people shouldn't be hard. And being a fit for a job shouldn't be hard. We spend so many hours of our lives in a profession that we deserve, to really feel like that profession is bowing us up. So, whether you're a leader, and you're used to talking to me or listening to the podcast with ears of a person that's leading a team, or you're somebody who's involved in a profession, or a pursuit, where they're really a subject matter expert, or they want to leave a legacy, I'd encourage you to listen to these questions. Each one of them I think builds on an aspect of that finding permission to seek out more, it doesn't always mean leaving a job either. Sometimes it can be reengineering the job that you've got, and looking very specifically for those elements of the job that you are struggling with. It's such a huge part of my profession now to work with executives who are climbing ladders of success or are getting more and more passionate about the areas that they operate in, whether that's leading people, or organizations, or ideas. So, let's dive right into it. And I'm going to just take the first five of these questions, and we'll see how we get on. Heck, it’s my podcasts, so if we don't get through all of them, and you like this, make sure that you give us a follow, tell your friends and drop me a line, find me on LinkedIn and say, hey, you know, do more of that. 

Tim 04:50
So, this person was writing, and they came to us from Ireland. And the question reads like this, feeling stuck in my current marketing role, what are some of the signs that I should be looking for telling me it's time for a change? I've been in this position for several years, and I'm torn, I'm not sure if I'm just experiencing a slump, that's gonna pass. Or if it's really time to move on. I also feel guilty, because I'm leaving colleagues that I've built relationships with and a product that I'm really proud to develop and bring to market. So, you know, when I encounter people like this, that are at this tipping point, and they need to decide if this is something that's going to pass, or if they're just in some sort of a temporary negative phase, or if it really is something deeper? Well, first of all, we'll try to identify the source of discomfort. I remember back in 2012, helping a particular executive through this and drawing a cartoon on a whiteboard to do it. And it's funny, I tell the story quite a bit when I open this whiteboard, and I seem to open it every week. I took a snapshot of it, later on, I coloured it using an app on my phone, and I can't seem to get away from this particular cartoon. Anyway, in the cartoon, we'll see this person that's sitting there in the doldrums. So, the first question that I ask is, is getting the work done frustrating? Or is the work no longer a fit? Is it no longer a good match for you? When we're looking at what could be the sources of frustration, they tend to be things that provide operational ambiguity, right? If you want to think of it that way? Do you have goals? Are they clear? Do you understand what's next? Is the team that you have, the right team? Is it large enough? Does it have enough capacity? And does that team possess the right skills? Do you have the right skills for the work that you're being asked to do? And when all of those are true, can you be appreciated for the work you're doing? Just this morning, I talked to somebody who was telling me that one of the concerns that they have constantly is that they will put in a great deal of effort. And I don't know if it's being appreciated, or if people are seeing it as progress. This is a particular issue that came up during COVID, as we had teams rallying together, and trying to just make it through. And that all-hands-on-deck mentality, we had people that were really going above and beyond. But when the danger passed, and we were all going through it, it was like organizations were almost too fatigued to acknowledge just how much work had been done. Because there was always another crisis right around the corner. As we've come through COVID, we are much more sensitive about how we spend our time and our money, and where our lives are headed. So, it's increasingly important that we feel that our contributions are valuable. And for no small percentage of the population, they have to be able to see their progress or be acknowledged for what they're providing. Okay, all of those things can create frustration. When we look at fit, we have a few other things to deal with. You know, one is, are we really happy with the style, the interactive style of the people that we work with? Do we enjoy their language? Do we enjoy their energy? Do we enjoy how they communicate? Do we enjoy how they raise problems? Is it something that fits with us that we can respond to? Or does it raise our hackles? Or does it bore us senseless? So, do we fit with the style of communication that's going on in the team that we're with? And if it's not the interactive style of people, it could be the task type that we don't fit with. Is it overly routine? Is it troubleshooting? Is it scheduling? Is it pure head-down, execution? Is it strategic? Some people love strategic work, and some people loathe it. Some people love tactical work, and some people loathe it. And many people love crossing tasks off a list. And some people loathe it. Is the task type of the work that you're doing currently something that you fit with? And then perhaps one of the largest ones, which likely warrants its own category, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with our friend from Dublin here. Do you have a connection with the values on the team? And if there's disconnect, is it small or large? Unless it's a big values disconnect, we can pretty much overcome any of these through good planning. And so to my friend here in Dublin, the advice was and remains that they should get very clear on exactly where do they feel this slump. Because likely, it's not a general malaise, it's a feeling of an expenditure of energy in the form of bad fit or frustration, which is causing them to not feel one with the team, one with the work, or like they're progressing. Once we can get that out in the open, then we can take very, very defined steps to go and get it. So, if you find yourself in a position where you're in a slump, get granular, ask yourself those questions. Is it fit, or is it frustration? And then take a look at if you see some answers, because usually those will give you a roadmap that you can approach with your team, or your leader, and talk about how we can shift some of the work. 

Tim 10:48
Alright, the second question that came to me this read, you highlight a lot of people who have found their passion, similar to the person I talked to last week, but I don't feel like my skill set is relevant anymore. I work in market research, and the industry is automating quickly. And I'm assuming they mean the AI or something. And I'm worried about being able to compete using my current skill set, as a Gen X. Hey, welcome to The Club. It's frustrating for me to feel like my experience might not be enough this late in life, what steps can I take, as I'm starting to feel obsolete? Okay, this is a very, very common problem, especially as we're seeing people arrive late in their careers, there's a couple of options. I mean, one option is that you can try to find a place that's not using technology, that's a possibility. But let's just take that one off the table, because frankly, that means that you're having to settle. And I'd never think that it's a great idea to go and find a substandard industry to just hope you can sort of survive in it. But you do have a lot to consider. It's important to break down your experiences, not simply looking at the industry, how they've been applied. But what are you actually gifted at? Market research, as an example, has several transferable skills that can be brought into other forms of analysis, other forms of investigation, and all sorts of things. And this is going to be different for many different market researchers, these skills will not be consistent across the entire group, because each one of them will have gravitated to slightly different mixes of skills. And so in this case, it's really taking a look at you're not starting from zero here, you have skills, and passions, and interests, and habits, and a style all your own, that can be very, very conducive to success elsewhere. And it's just about finding where that elsewhere might be. The other thing to think about in this particular case is that you know, often people discount their skills or their worth because they begin to use the metrics that they're given at work. They're seeing themselves first through their role, or through an annual assessment that the company creates. We have to remember just how myopic that is, that is not a real-life expression of just how much is there. But if you tend to be in the same company for quite a while, that same industry for quite a while, you start to feel pigeon-holed. Really important to get out and take a look at what you really like doing and where else can that be applied. And you'd be surprised how successful people can be. I remember that in 2015, right in through COVID for some people, we had layoffs in the geotechnical space. Geologists are amazing at understanding the unknown, and really taking calculated guesses of where we're going to find value. And it doesn't have to be downhole looking for gold or oil or anything like this. They can be doing interesting searches for possibilities in all sorts of areas. Market research would be among them. But of course, we don't want to saturate that market any longer. Engineers said the same thing, engineers who realize just how artistic they are can jump all over the place. So, don't get too crammed into the idea that you're only one thing that you are your industry, if I can say it that way. 

Tim 14:31
Hi from South Africa. I recently graduated from Limpopo Turfoop Graduate School, and I'm exploring different career paths. It's exciting but also overwhelming. There seems to be so many possibilities. I want to make sure I choose a path that aligns with me and my interests. You seem to talk to people who are so happy. How can I make the best decision? Martha. Okay, Martha, you know if you are coming out of school, maybe for the first time, maybe you're a returning student and upgrading or something. The typical advice is that you need to research all of your possible career options and make a plan. But, you know, we have to be careful what criteria we put against these. And that's one of the most important things when we're giving ourselves permission to look elsewhere, is make sure that we have become very, very precise in the criteria that we're looking at. You can't necessarily just look at what's the most prestigious first step or what has the biggest paycheck? Or which company wooes you to join them with all sorts of promises? And you need to be very, very precise. Well, how do you do that if you're not part of a company? The answer is kind of, we have to flip it, you don't want to look necessarily at the company first, you want to look at being fluid, becoming fluent in what aspects of your work fit, your workstyle, the type of work that you are performing in any given day, what brings you the most amount of joy. And then we look where others with a similar mix to you are also experiencing joy, we try to find our people somewhere, they don't have to be precisely like you, but they have to be in compatible spaces. If we always focus on that, if we focus on first looking at finding the best, the best choice among options that we've predetermined, already have a very high probability of fitting us, then we are going to be much more successful when it comes to choosing something that we can try out and really experience enjoying work in a certain industry. Enjoying a certain industry will never compensate for not enjoying the actual work you're doing in that industry. I help a lot of people 10 years down the road, that find out they really dislike the industry they originally chose. And they could have been choosing it for really wrong reasons. Just check out the last episode we put out with Julie Freedman Smith. I mean, we talked about exactly this right, getting stuck in the wrong place. One important note here is it's not about personality fit, you don't want to just look for people that have the same personality as you. Personalities are somewhat fluid as we grow and as we mature. Know, these things that we're going to try to understand and measure are much longer lasting, you can look for hints in what you find the most amount of fulfillment in or the type of work and contributions you find the most amount of energy and joy in. Things that you've experienced up to this point in your life and I promise you that if you focus on those things that make you feel the most productive, you will make a good decision. Alright, let's move right along. 

Tim 17:51
So, we're on to our fourth question here. Let's see. So, let's do this one, feeling stuck in my career. It's not what I signed up for. I used to love the creative process. But over the years, I have been put in the lead of bigger and bigger teams. And I know leadership is your thing, Tim, but I'm much more interested in getting back to actually creating stuff. I'm jealous of my staff's freedom. And well, I like working with strategy. I just don't feel like I'm contributing. What strategies would you recommend for reassessing my career, possibly making significant change? I'm passionate about design. I wanted my legacy to be about design and not managing, my idols used to be Frank Lloyd Wright and Frank Gehry, how can I evaluate, I got to figure out who those people are? I know Frank Lloyd Wright is but Frank Gehry, I'm gonna research. How can I evaluate my options, and move to something that reignites my passion and puts me ahead again? Okay, so ahead, we'll assume, I'll assume you mean your legacy. Okay. Yeah. And that's what, how I would answer this question. Well, when I think about a person that's in your position, and I mean, the previous answers will still fit. I mean, let's take a look at, you know, what's frustrating, etc. But this is more of a career path discussion. You're already somewhere and you found yourself in a leadership position. And you miss being on the tools, so to speak, not uncommon, not uncommon at all. Primarily, and let me talk about why for a minute, primarily, because in a lot of organizations, the only way up is taking on management positions. Unless the organization is very large, and can handle more than one expert. There's less room to move up as a technical specialist, or a subject matter expert, or really a visionary in a certain idea space, that's much less common. But for all of you who run big corporations out there, it's absolutely essential that you have that pathway for people, otherwise you're going to really miss out on a lot of talent. The interesting thing here is when we think about being again, stuck in a sense of having taken the wrong off-ramp. And now we've got to, we've probably got to get back on to our main road, you're in a leadership position, you have leverage, you have choices you can make, you can decide perhaps, in your own strategy, maybe without even asking anybody that you're going to take a portion of the work, you're going to have a small portfolio of things that you directly contribute to, this is not a bad idea. It's not a bad idea for a couple of reasons. One, is, at least in the short term, while your staff perhaps need to be prepared for you to go somewhere, you could fill your boots with your own project, that is something that you could really, you could really do. So, we want to look at what leverage we have. And in a leadership position, you got a fair amount, and then what choices are you not currently making that you could be making, that could be, take on a portion of the work, there's nothing wrong to going where the work is done, and getting your hands dirty for a little bit. Not to mention, it frees up some leadership opportunities for others. It's not unheard of to have people demote themselves, or become a visionary subject matter expert, being sponsored by their business. The other thing, and this is not something that when I responded to this individual, this is not something that I would take lightly. But if you have this passion, and you really are concerned with legacy, understanding that being part of a. when you look at Frank Lloyd Wright, or you'll look at okay, standby. So, Frank Gehry, I just looked it up, he designed the Guggenheim and a few other things. So, these are, you know, both architects, they had teams that were underneath them, by all means, but they were the visionaries within this this organization. Does your organization have a visionary at the top? Or does it have a finance professional or something like that running it, I don't know your your specific situation. But in this kind of a case, well, why not take a shot for the top seat, or alternatively, why not decide to start your own show, and go out there and take all of the business knowledge that you have, and hire the right people that can do it, and open your own design house. I would say that talent is not a small consideration here. So, selling the farm and banking on the fact that you can be at the level of this, probably you should be making sure that you have a marketable style, and those kinds of things. There is a pathway here. And that's why I think, you know, taking some side projects, or working within the system that you're currently in could be an excellent way to do that. But at a certain point, if you decide that you are the big cheese, and you are the selling feature, embrace that, become that creator with the team in behind them, not somebody managing a team that's producing it in more of a commercial organization. Lots of choices there, always take a good look at just how much leverage you've got and just where you are making choices. Before you do, you've got to be very, very fluent in who you are, and where you want to work. You also want to be really sure that you've got something to sell that people will buy. But that being said, it is a wonderful life, to feel fully in charge of bringing what you're best at into the world. 

Tim 23:40
Number five. Now, this is the type of question when I get makes me really happy. Like I talked about the person that inspired all of this is a similar question. As a mom returning to work, I need tips on balancing career progression with family life. Before I had kids, I was very aggressive and had set big aspirations. But how can I now manage both, effectively? It's tough to juggle my responsibilities at home with my work and still try to excel. I feel guilty for not being able to give my all to either space, what strategies can help me find a better balance and ensure that I can progress in my career without neglecting my family? Okay, there's a lot to break down here. The first is there's always going to be a struggle between vital and moral courage. Vital courage is the ability to do what's most important for you, that you can stand up for yourself, and your values, and your health, and all of these things. And then the next thing is you have to stand up for the moral courage of any structure that you're part of. One of those structures is going to be your family. Another is going to be your work and you might have others. In our family, we have the dance studio, that we’re part of, we have the schools that were involved in, and we have other structures that were part of. I sit on boards and things like this. Okay. So, the first thing I'd like you to realize here is this balance is actually three ways, it's you, and your family, and your job. Your career aspirations are separate from the job. And your family responsibilities are separate from that job, or you. So, imagine trying to balance a set of scales, thinking that there's two baskets to add weight to, when there's actually three. And then you're not dealing with a, you know, straight across two-dimensional scale, you're dealing with a three-dimensional scale. No wonder we have difficulty finding a balance. The second thing is just the notion of balance, although we use it, it's more about an appropriate blend between these things. Because balancing something assumes that they are on two opposing ends, or in this case, three opposing ends of an equation. We need to think much differently than that. There's a lot of work that I do with people to have breakthrough structural sessions around understanding just what these decisions and what these opposing tensions are in their lives, and when they're in conflict and how we can resolve them. But the Coles notes is that it's very difficult to keep them in the opposition. And instead, we have to make a decision and design an approach that really properly prioritizes what we do first and second, and everything else becomes features of the priority. So, getting clear, in this particular, it is a false dichotomy. Because there's other things at play here. But when we think about balancing home versus career, being at peace with what comes first is really important. Because am I going to be fulfilling all of my responsibilities of the home and achieving my career aspirations when I can? Or am I going to achieve my career aspirations, and ensure that I am compensating or filling the responsibilities in some way that I have at home? Sounds like I'm being cute. But if you think about having a blend, where that future, where everything is properly blended, and serves each other, as part of a design, you now have one thing pulling you forward, one massive well-working thing, you're not torn between two things, or three things, right, so we have to get back into what I like to call work-life design, which is, what is the design behind care for ourselves and our family and our work and all of the areas that we choose to, I like to say lead, I really do. Because it doesn't matter if you're managing a team or something, you're taking on responsibility greater than yourself, you're really not passive in this, you are being really active and caring, both for yourself and others and people you've never met, right? So, my advice, in this case, is to stop first with trying to balance stuff, make some hard choices, make them well, and once you make those choices, you're going to find that you're in a much greater state of flow. Flow, structures, tensions, all of these things are very important to understand that it's part of a larger effort that I think is so important for all of you listening. And that is to become very, very fluent in your life, and what you care about and what you're out for, and to focus on those things that matter most. And to begin to cut away a lot of the rest. 

Tim 28:47
So, whether or not you see yourself inside these examples, I’d encourage you to just ponder some of these questions and consider for yourself, do you have the job that you deserve right now? Do you have the work-life blend that you deserve? We get what we deserve in a lot of spaces. Do we have the car that we deserve, do we have the watch we deserve? Do we wear the clothes we deserve? Sure. But then we suddenly become a lot more passive when it comes to our own well-being. It's very easy to neglect oneself in one's path and to just soldier on and it never works out that well. Whereas, when we spend a little bit of time understanding ourselves and making great decisions that take us forward, and following the amazing advice that we've gotten over the last year for many of the guests that have been on the show, whether it is really focusing in on your passion or finding positivity in the workspace or dealing with your mindset or cutting away the noise or focusing on that true north. There's so many lessons that have taken place over the last 35 episodes that I really hope you take some time if you haven't listened to the back catalogue and find what resonates with you because the answers are there. We just need to love ourselves enough that we listen and are able to articulate them. I'm always available if you'd like to ask questions like this, if you have ideas for future podcasts, or you have other questions you'd like me to add to this list that I did not finish and will not finish tonight, feel free to go ahead and reach out to me and find me on LinkedIn. Or you can reach me at teamworkexcellence.com I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with me. And I really commend you for taking a little bit of time for yourself. Keep doing that. Keep on leading, keep leading the best life that you can. Look for another episode in two weeks. Thanks for joining me.

Tim 30:46
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word to by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Episode Summary: ​​Join Tim Sweet as he welcomes Julie Freedman Smith for an insightful discussion on leadership, parenting, and navigating life's pivotal moments. Julie, a renowned parenting expert, shares her wisdom on guiding children without limiting them and how adults can re-evaluate their paths to find true fulfillment. Tune in for a conversation that spans from childhood influences to adult leadership dynamics.

Episode Notes
In this engaging episode of Sweet on Leadership, host Tim Sweet sits down with Julie Freedman Smith, a seasoned parenting expert, for a thought-provoking conversation on parenting and leadership. Julie shares important insights on how parents can support their children in finding their own paths while balancing guidance and empathy. They discuss the importance of understanding the unique perspectives of children and how parents can embrace courage and flexibility while parenting. 
Julie and Tim explore the idea that children operate on a different "currency" than adults, valuing friendship and good feelings over time and achievement. They emphasize the necessity of reassessing parental expectations and focusing on short-term progress rather than long-term outcomes. Additionally, they draw parallels between parenting and leadership, discussing how adults can avoid limiting themselves to specific roles or activities based on early career choices or societal expectations. This episode is packed with practical advice and is a must-listen for anyone looking to enhance their parenting skills and leadership qualities, fostering growth, adaptability, and genuine fulfillment in both personal and professional realms.

About Julie Freedman Smith
Julie Freedman Smith is the founder of JFS Parent Education and co-founder of Parent Mentor Now. With over two decades of experience guiding parents across North America, she is dedicated to transforming family dynamics by fostering safe, respectful communication that builds lasting connections. As an author, podcast host, parenting expert, and mother of two, Julie understands the thrilling yet challenging journey of raising children in today's complex world.
Her empathetic and practical approach empowers parents to support their children's growth and development while maintaining a positive family dynamic. Through practical strategies and open communication, she helps parents navigate the stresses and joys of parenting, ensuring both they and their children thrive. Julie's mission is to equip parents with the tools they need to create harmonious and resilient family environments, enabling them to handle the ups and downs of parenting with confidence and grace.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Yerba Mate: www.nosellama.ca
• Vitamix: www.vitamix.ca
• Marshall Goldsmith: marshallgoldsmith.com

Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Julie Freedman Smith | Parent Mentor Now: 

• Website: parentmentornow.com
• Email: julie@juliefreedmansmith.com
• Linkedin: Julie Freedman Smith

Transcript:
Julie 00:01
So, I was just talking to a family this week about a child who's playing one level up. So, he's the youngest kid on the game. He's being picked on all the time and then he's taking that and he's picking on everybody else in his class because that's what it looks like. And so we can just take a step back, sit in the discomfort, this means I might not know the entire path for my child. And can I just be here? Can I be with this child right now with what they need from me right now, and see where we get to next?

Tim 00:34
Do you rely on others to set a vision and then give them what they need so that they can achieve something they never would be able to do on their own? Whether or not you formally lead a team. If this sounds like you, then you, my friend, are the definition of a leader. And this show is all about bringing you new insights from real people that you've never been exposed to. So, you can grow and increase your impact on the world and feel more fulfilled while you're doing it.

Tim 01:01
I'm Tim Sweet. And I'm glad you could join us for episode 34.

Tim 01:08
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Joining me once again, this will be your seventh visit? Seventh visit is, Julie Freedman Smith. Together, we form some sort of a superhero duo, yet to be named. We've been talking off-camera about things that are going on in our lives, we decided to hit record. And today we're going to take you into a subject that I think both of us seem to be orbiting. Now and again. It really came out for me as being important that I saw some of my clients pigeonholing themselves. And really, you know, we're dealing with the fact that they've always thought they needed to be something. I was telling you about this and you see a similar thing can happen with parents and children. But before we get into all that, let's introduce Julie and Julie other than being a great friend who gives me wonderful chocolates, on occasion. Why don't you tell everybody who you are and what you do?

Julie 02:08
Sure. Hi, everybody. My name is Julie Freedman Smith and I have a company called JFS Parent Education. People asked me, What does JFS stand for? It stands for Julie Freedman Smith, which seems to go over their head. But that's okay. My website is Parent Mentor now, and really, I'm about helping parents to create the family harmony that you've always wanted, without having to change who you are. And so, I've been friends with Tim for ages. In fact, Tim, I wanted to congratulate you, because I think this is podcast numbers 30, or like 34–

Tim 02:42
34. 

Julie 02:43
We're a year in, eh? 

Tim 02:45
Yeah, but if we take away the very first four, which was a four-part special that you and I did about casting off some of the things that are no longer helpful in our life bridge after COVID Sitting right around episode 30. So this is in many ways, this is our 30th episode. But technically, Episode 34. 

Julie 3:03
That's pretty great. And a year of this talking to so many different people, I loved listening to your guests and learning these tiny little smidgens from each of them. So, congratulations. 

Tim 03:14
Well, I appreciate that. I mean, it has been something to try to maintain that consistency and that cadence of every two weeks we're putting out an episode. But it really has been a chance to learn from all of these really interesting people. And again, the format of the show is to look for inspiration for people who find themselves in leadership positions and leadership situations and really wanting to bring their best selves to work, whether that's working for others, or, you know, managing a business, or leading on a sports team, or any of those things. What can we learn from one another, and there's so much wisdom out there that will never be published in a book, so many great stories that just can't make it anywhere else. And so when I meet great and interesting people, I want to bring them onto the show and just really open my community up to them, and so it's been exciting. Today, though, we're going to be talking about this issue of pigeonholing who we are and what we can do. And maybe by way of a little bit of a background here, of late, say in the last six months, it's been happening my entire career, or at least as long as I've been running a coaching company, that when I'm helping leaders and owners get fluency over how they want to work and how to make their work more meaningful and more fun because I'm a big believer that anybody can move their job into areas that are more rewarding so that you spend a lot of time at work that you're doing things that really fit, really feel like an expression of you and what you're passionate about. But increasingly, when we're doing that exploration, or at least it's been more noticeable to me of late. We run into these shoulds. Throughout these 30 episodes, you've heard me talk a lot about shoulding all over yourself. But when people have actually chosen vocations because of what they should be, rather than what they are, and this can work for some people who properly identify, but for others, they may be, you know, a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years into a career, all the while doing something that while they may be good at it, it really doesn't speak to them, it is purely a job. And so, understanding why that happened led us to an interesting place. And often that was they received feedback very early on, about who they should be, and why they should be that thing. And it made sense, the math made sense back then. And so, you know, when I brought this up to you, it was as a dad, also saying, hey, what happens when we become the person shoulding all of our kids? But rather than me go down that path, do you see that happening with parents and children? Has that been your experience? Okay, so take us in. 

Julie 06:10
All the time. So, my sense of this is, for many people, parenting is the most important job that they will do, or certainly way up there in the things that they are doing. And also the thing at which they are least educated. So, they don't have a clue what they're doing. And they want to do a fantastic job right away. And so whenever we're in this situation, when we find an answer, or when we find what we think is an answer, we glom on to it, we hold on to it. And one of the ways we do that is figuring out our kids. So, when our kids are little, you know, we're just trying to figure them out. And suddenly our child takes to something, they take to an activity, and it's an activity that they love. And they might love it because we're clapping for them to do it, they might love it because who they were at that moment that they did it, it was fun and cool. And we go ah they love that, they love hockey, or they're going to be a dancer, or this is my little reader or whatever it is. And so we start to define the child by their action. And so, typically, when our kids are young, they actually think we know what we're talking about. And so if we, as parents are saying, you're a hockey player, you love hockey, and we get in there, and we put them into hockey. And we get on the board of the Hockey Association, and we coach and we are the team mom, and we are the manager, and we are all these things and the whole family's identity is around this particular activity. The child as they go along might not like that activity anymore. And yet, it's kind of what's expected of them and so they do it. So, I see that a lot. And I often see it where a parent will come to me and say this, my child wants to quit this, but this is their thing. They were gonna go to college on a scholarship, we've poured so much money into this. And so just this idea of, okay, so there's a corner in the pathway, how do we help to turn that corner? And do we even give our kids the opportunity to tell us like, some kids even too scared to say that they're not involved in it? So, that's one way that I see this happening. And it's completely with the best of intentions. This idea of I figured this piece out, I'm gonna ride with this particular thing and it might be around education, academics, sports, arts, it could be around a lot of different areas. So, that's one of the ways that I see it play out.

Tim 08:43
And I mean, you and I've had this conversation in a bunch of different areas. I mean, listeners will know that my three kids are all dancers. We're a dance family. And this is one of those areas that I remember early on. I think you and I had a conversation years ago, years and years ago, like, really early on in our relationship, this would have been 2015, or somewhere in there, 2016. And you had said something along the lines of, if the child is a dancer, and when they're asked what they are, I'm a dancer, what do you do, I dance and the as is our society when people say what do you do? You don't say well I walk a dog three times a week and I hike in the mountains and I love to bake bread you say I'm you know, massage therapist, I'm whatever. You know, that you had said to me? If the child's when asked says what do you do? I'm a dancer or I'm a hockey player or I'm going you know, I'm a competitive swimmer or I'm in debate club. Yeah, or whatever that is. If that falls away because of a situation, because of injury or because they don't make the grade or whatnot. And that's all they have, is that identity. It's what they do, is who they are, not who they are and they happen to do some stuff. They're lost, lost. And I remember seeing this in small scale when my daughter was injured, and it threw her off her dance career for two years, and in many ways, not a bad thing, because she had to consider what else she was. Although it was, she was in grade 10. And it was quite traumatic. Because suddenly that was who she was. That's how she filled her days. My youngest son walked away from it at 11. Still want to dance? He’s like, no way. So, he's figuring out his world, his oyster, my middle boy, though, is planning on being a professional dancer. Luckily, he seems to be interested in many things, although all in the arts. So, we'll see, you know, but I do remember you saying that to me early on.

Julie 10:49
I was wise back then. 

Tim 10:51
You are wise now. Wisenhiemer, but it was, you know, it was meaningful, then. And we have children that can be influenced in this way. Well, we know we have a situation in North America overprescribing kids when it comes to extracurricular activities, and we tend to focus them into one. And it's always about the drive for excellence. 

Julie 11:14
Right. We are also children, even as adults, right? Like, 

Tim 11:17
Yeah, that was where I was going to go. 

Julie 11:18
Like, we’re still doing that. it was. 

Tim 11:19
Yeah, that's right. And so for certain personality types, nothing can be done by half. So, if you're going to do it, it's how do I not just experience something, but I've got to turn it into this like major hobby, it can't be that I can just enjoy, this my latest thing, I can't just enjoy drinking Yerba Mate. No Se Llama, Canmore, Alberta, support them, they're really nice people. But I've got to know everything about it. I've got to, like, educate myself. And I've got to be, you know what I mean? It just can't be simple. It's got to be full on, you know, what are the health benefits? What are the cautions? And what's the right temperature to drink it at? And what's the tradition? And, you know, just can't be, you want to drink some stuff, that's going to be a little different. Nope. You know, so. Okay, so we have that as children. And then, as you say, we have that in ourselves this drive, to do it. So, talk to me a little bit about the pivotal moments, when that can really be formed. When in a person's experience, do we start to really listen to these things? Can the voices from the outside, I'm sure they're always important, but are there moments that are more profound than others, or timing, that's sponge-like? 

Julie 12:34
As kids, we're very dependent on everything we're being fed, from our parents, literally and figuratively. And then often in that, you know, adolescent place we might push away, so we might actively go against whatever the prescribed thing is. I think also another time where that happens, you and I haven't talked about this, but is this, as we're moving into adulthood, the initial part of being an adult is role-playing being an adult. So, I'm going to get X, Y and Z certification, I'm going to buy adult-looking clothes, I'm going to get married, or I'm going to move into an apartment or I'm gonna buy a house or, I mean, who's buying a house nowadays? But there are those kinds of play-acting, what adults do and–

Tim 13:26
What you call swim to the center of the pool, right? In a sense, they're pushing off us in they’re trying some things out. 

Julie 13:26
Yeah, and we're all doing those things. And we tend to do that until somewhere around age 30 something, where we suddenly go, I'm doing all these adult things, I still do not feel like an adult, I'm not even sure that what I'm doing is something I like, but I'm not sure how to get out of it. Or am I going to look stupid for getting out of it? Or you know, and that is another time where we kind of take that left turn of like, oh, it could be different? And if this is what adulting is really about, how do I do it in a way that makes sense for me? Instead of playing the role of adults, how am I going to be an adult, that's really true to myself? So, I think there's some kind of a pivot point in that mid-30s that comes along, as well. 

Tim 14:20
I remember, in my experience, it was almost like a, you start to focus on something a little bit more, and you have to cast off certain hobbies, you have to cast off, even in some cases, friends and certain social groups. And it's like, I have to pick my lane in a way, I guess is how it–

Julie 14:37
or I want to also, there is this element of I want to do this, like, I want to spend time doing what I really want to be doing if I can, or maybe the question is, how do I spend time doing more of what I really want to be doing? I have these obligations, I've got to meet those things. I've got to meet the needs. I've got to earn the money that I need and, you know, fulfill these obligations and how do I carve that piece of my life that's really fulfilling. 

Tim 15:04
That's a very interesting point. Because I remember as a boy transition, when I stopped playing with toys, in a sense, like sort of gave up the toys, and I was more interested in sports and girls and music and things like this. And then that happened again, going into university is like another ratchet on the maturity spectrum, I'll use mature lightly. And then you know, you make certain life choices, and it's, and you kind of have to throw your lot in with a certain path. And around 30, there's another one where, as you say, where it's kind of like, you hit that 30 mark, and you kind of, you know you're through your 20s, you know, that it's serious now like you're… I actually remember when we had our first child, I remember the very moment after she was born and I've had this conversation with a lot of fathers, where it's just like a weight is on and suddenly it's no longer about you. You are very clearly the protector, the whatever that is, I don't know what the I'm not saying it's a cultural role, though it might be but I think it's actually genetic, where we're like, these are my responsibility now and it's like a totally different role. And you thought you knew what it was all the way up to the moment you held that child. And then you're like, Oh, I get it now. And you kind of it's scary. And it's like, this is what responsibility feels like, kind of thing. On that note, when you go through all of those, I've noticed, especially around the 30s, maybe in the 25s as well, when I'm working with my clients, younger clients, some made a decision, and others went through it more passively. The decision happened to them, in a sense, they went with the flow for good or for bad, whereas others were kind of like a mid-midlife crisis. I don't know, but it was very active.

Julie 16:58
They were steered into their role. Yep.

Tim 17:01
So, when that happens, we have some people that approach this with a high degree of risk and adventure. And, um, you use the term discomfort at times and others that do not. So, can we talk a little bit about that role of when we face these milestones of what would you say, further defining our identity? There's this element of are you passive? Or are you highly active? And what does that look like? We're dealing with two things here. One is the adults impression they leave on the child. Later on in life, there's our own questioning of ourself and our path. And perhaps let's go back to the first one and say, when we are helping to form or involved in the forming of a young mind, we can either be passive, or we can be highly active. What would trigger a person to be highly active versus passive? What do you see in parents that allows them to be really relaxed and just kind of go with the flow? And what might happen where a parent needs to intervene or feels they have to steer heavily? 

Julie 18:11
Part of it is temperament. I don't think it's as easy as well, if you just turned left at the third corner, you would be this kind of a person. And if you kept going, then you became this kind of person. I don't think that's what it is. I do think there's an element of control. I'm very anxious to make sure that my kid is on the right path. I am going to do everything I can to keep them as safe as possible and keep them on this path. So, certainly–

Tim 18:35
Because it's my job, my responsibility. 

Julie 18:38
Yeah, exactly. Which, of course, is impossible. Absolutely impossible. But there is that feeling. So, for some people, that's how they hang on. Some people are like I don't know what to do, so I'm not going to do anything. There's an element of, you know, moderation and all things including moderation. So, the ways that I would say that you can safeguard against doing that pigeonholing is creating some kind of opportunity for conversation and discussion around like, it's the next year to sign your kids up for the thing that they've been doing for the last year. Often towards the end of the year, kids are getting tired of something. And so we're like, do you want to keep doing this? And they're like, no, I don't. And I don't think quitting something when you're having a lousy time at it, is the best time to quit something. I think leaving something when you've had a good time, but you're done with it is more helpful if you have the opportunity to do that. Sometimes we don't have that opportunity, but just checking in and saying, do we want to keep doing this this year? Or do you want to do something different? And so for a lot of parents, I talked to a lot of parents who are like very clear that they want to have one kind of active hobby for their child and one kind of artistic hobby for their child. And so in order to do that they have to choose something but they don't necessarily have to choose the same thing every year. Now we have a lot of sports and music, things where you're in it, if you leave, you're sacrificing the place you have. And you might not get back into that same level. And so there's a lot of pressure. But the thing is, if the kid doesn't want to be there, if they don't like it anymore, then maybe that's okay. Like, maybe it's okay to step away from that thing. And every time we make a choice or a decision, there are consequences that happen, as a result of that. And again, part of our job as parents is to help our kids realise that they have the ability to make choices, and they have to live with the consequences. So, just creating these opportunities, having conversations, instead of just assuming that the child wants to keep going in this. And sometimes it's more than assuming it's like, well, we're in I've already said I'm going to be on the board for next year. So, we're kind of all in this, we just gotta keep going. And the child kind of gets pulled along. 

Tim 20:58
And even then, that's interesting because I've been there, I've been there where I've, I've made a commitment to a studio or whatnot. But really, just because I've made a commitment that can be undone, you know, but all of that boils back to, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for me to have to now back out of a commitment that I made, it's uncomfortable for me to have to consider, what if my child doesn't find the next thing, or is quitting or is letting his team down?

Julie 21:29
Letting the team down? Like, this is not about leaving halfway through the year, although that can happen sometimes, too. But this is about before we sign up again. Right? But you're right, there is the what if there's a sitting in the discomfort of if you're not a hockey player, what are you? If you don't play classical guitar, what do you do? Who are you? 

Tim 21:49
We had our youngest in a rowing club, and he was young, two years younger than they usually let in. But he was big, and he was able to row and he did quite well. He also got picked on. So, we were halfway through the season, when they were just starting to get into looking at competition. And all the, I can’t remember what they were called but anyway, the big regattas and everything, and we pulled him. We were just like, you know what, maybe in two years, but for right now, this is not, the juice is not worth the squeeze on this particular one. 

Julie 22:16
No, definitely not. That's another issue as well, which is, but my child shows skill, my child showed talent, they're gonna move him up to the next team, they're gonna move her into the next level. Great. But there's a lot of other consequences that come from that that being picked on is one of those things. I was just talking to a family this week about a child who's playing one level up. So, he's the youngest kid on the game. He's being picked on all the time. And then he's taking that and he's picking on everybody else in his class because that's what it looks like. And so yeah, we can just take a step back, I guess, is part of it, take a step back, sit in the discomfort. This means I might not know the entire path for my child. And can I just be here? Can I be with this child right now with what they need from me right now? And see where we get to next? 

Tim 23:09
And then there's the flip side of this. And now let's get back to the professional. Where i remember 24, I had a run three years of being very well known. Like, well, at least, I was a known chef locally, like I was at the top restaurant in the city at the time. I could have gone with that. I had the opportunity to go to Spain, or Australia, or Japan. And we decided not to and part of that for me was when I really broke it down. I didn't enjoy it. Am I creative and artistic? Yeah, I am. Was I a great cook? I was. Did I get awards? Sure I did. Did I like it? Nope. I didn't, just because you're good at something doesn't mean, that is what you have to do. There were elements of that lifestyle that I really didn't like, I respect other people for being in it. But it wasn't for me. And then I went back to school and got a business degree. And I think that's part of why I do what I do. I know the difference between being happy with what you are in and what you're not. If we flip this on the other side, when we're sitting with ourselves, not our children, and we put ourselves back into that place of how did I get here? And what was the math I did and really have to put in its place the attention we have with who we should be or who our parents were or what we were afforded and how they invested in us. Right? It's hard to undo. But once you undo it can be very, very clear, in that moment where you can really embrace and say, You know what, I really love what I do, or now that I look at it this way, I'm not entirely crazy about what I do. You know, I'm not getting a lot of joy from this. So, what can I do to raise that level of joy, or for this to feel like it's a better fit? 

Julie 25:04
And sometimes there are a lot more responsibilities at that point, right? Because you still need to be earning the money to support yourself, or to pay your rent, or to support your family or whatever it is.

Tim 25:16
All right, so we have, we have these opportunities where we can sit and take these moments to really explore where we are, where our child is, if we were to step back and really state what do we think our expectation is on all of this, where are we may be layering that in, come to terms with what we're afraid of for the child or what, you know, what we really want to land, we can get things to a much more rational position, where we are not emotionalizing everything and layering on so much pressure on ourselves or on the child, that we're causing them to take a lane.

Julie 25:57
Yup, and just bring it back to like here, this amount of time, instead of thinking about how this is going to impact their university and what kind of person they're going to become in their 40s. What's happening in the next three months, six months? How do we move forward in that amount of time?

Tim 26:15
It's really interesting that you say that, because when we, when as I go through, and I talk to my kids, they have such a different time scale. It couldn't even be down to the fact that I don't feel like I have any friends at this place that I’m at. Or I have a friend and that's why I want to be in it. And their currency is something that's so different than ours, it's not in time and achievement. It's in friendship, it's in good feelings. They're operating on a different currency, rather than, oh well do this so that you can win the next Nobel Peace Prize, or whatnot. Let's shift from the parenting perspective to one that we'll all have, which is, how did we get where we are? And those might not have been little moments, depending on how we were raised. They could have been big blowouts. They could have been unspoken rules. They could have been all sorts of things. But I guess taking that moment for ourselves, where we let ourselves step back and look at the roots of why we have a certain expectation on ourselves. And maybe can we get it down to that, you know, it's almost like, understand the design behind our life that led us here because it wasn't by accident. I mean, this is one thing. It's so funny when I when I work with people, they're never broken. In that sense, when we talk about career, the career is perfectly where it's supposed to be based on everything that's happened up to that point. It's led us here, right? And in here we are. So, what's your thinking about serving that child inside, in a sense, now talking to the adult? Who's having to consider, you know? 

Julie 27:58
So, I think there is value in going backwards and looking in the rearview mirror and asking how we got here and why we're here. And I think we can get so caught up in all of that, that it's just another form of distracting us from the what do we do now? So, for me a question that I prefer to why I don't like it as a parenting question. And I don't really like it as a question in general, why am I stuck in a job I don't like? Why don't have, why? I like the question, how? How do I take a small step towards where I want to be? Because, as we just talked about, there could be a lot of reasons to stay in this job or to tolerate where you are right now. Because your education has led you to that point. And different education would be expensive. And there are people counting on you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not saying you should stay there forever. I don't believe in that. And the thing is, if anybody was to take a look at your life career, life timeline and my life timeline, you and I have had so many different jobs in so many different ways. We're very privileged to have that freedom to choose and to ride the waves that came along. That being said, there's nothing to stop us from moving one degree towards that thing we might want to do. It doesn't have to be our career. It could be something we're doing once a month, it could be something we're doing every Saturday morning, it could just be some slight curve in the path that's going to help us to feel better about how we're spending our lives. It's feeding us to be able to continue to do the other stuff. 

Tim 29:40
Using that analogy. I'm going to layer preemptively into that idea of what we want to do. That is a great question to be asking. Because if we're going to angle towards this idea of true north, is that our true north, or is it a true north that was– is it the true north we would choose, right? And coming to terms with what we want is a really big step because you could be layering in all of these supposed to be’s, on to that, what do I want to do? And it could be going all the way back to where we started, which was, well, I'm a dancer, and therefore what I want has to involve dance. What if it doesn't? What if it is something? So getting right down to that, what do I really want? And is that different than the story I've always told myself? 

Julie 30:34
Yes, and what don't I want? 

Tim 30:36
And what don't I want. 

Julie 30:37
Sometimes it's easier to figure out what you want, when you can be like, I don't know what I want. But I know that I don't want to be doing this. There's one part of this that I don't want.

Tim 30:49
I'll put a link, I shared an article recently that I wrote in 2015 called “What Leaders Can Learn from My Blender.” And I have a blender, which I'm in love with, I love my blender, I love my salad spinner. I don't know why they're just two implements that I just dig, shout out Vitamix. Vitamix can clean itself in seconds. If you do it right away. If you don't, it's like some sort of industrial adhesive and you're in there with a brush and a chisel if you're unlucky, or whatever. The point is, in cheffing, we used to say clean as you go. And so that idea of not just saying what we want, but what we don't want. What are we going to let ourselves, what are we no longer going to pursue or be? That's going to be a big part of managing the energy it's going to take towards where we need to go. And coming really to terms with cleaning as we go and say, and it's back to that example you said, when we're 30, we're kind of in this new lane of saying while we're doing this, we're gonna cast off some things. It might be that rejuvenation, again, we might be in this season of literally turning the leaf and like a palm tree shedding its fronds and putting up new shoots, right? We have to go again. And that little cycle of reinvention it's is great. But what true north are we using to decide what these new leaves are going to look like in which way we're going to how many coconuts we're going to be hanging at the end?

Julie 32:22
I don't know that you necessarily can know that. I think it’s okay to not know that.

Tim 32:25
But can we get closer to a yes? 

Julie 32:27
Yes, it's pointing the ship slightly closer. I was listening to an interview with Sally Field this morning. And she was talking about, and I hope I can paraphrase this correctly. When we're little, and we're going through hardships or fears, we might knit ourselves a sweater to keep us warm and safe. And we keep wearing that same sweater, even when we're much older than we were in the sweaters too. I'm now taking her analogy and I'm switching it a little bit. But you know, we're wearing that tiny sweater of I should do this, I need to be this person which fit us then but it really doesn't fit us now. And it's cramping our style. And part of it is, take the sweater off. You can figure out what sweater you want to put on next. But take that one off, notice those things. Notice those thoughts that you're telling yourself, notice those stories that you were telling yourself that got you here and served you very well to here. And now, how are you going to start knitting the new sweater to keep you safe in this new way of being you? And part of that is you know, like can I be a little bit more uncomfortable? Because I'm older now and I can handle a little more discomfort? And then, you know, how can we just slightly try something different? It doesn't have to be all or none. We don't have to know exactly where we're going. Because who knows where they're going? I knew exactly where I was going as a child, right up until the time that I didn't get into med school. And then I didn't have a clue where I was going. So, like even if we think we know exactly where we're going. We don't.

Tim 34:01
That recognition that “what got you here won't get you there,” was what Marshall Goldsmith always said, right? What got you here is not going to get you there. Because all it's, where you've arrived is now you're on this new cliff face, you're sitting. You're sitting in this in this place where you can see what's possible. But the climb at this point is not going to be what the next thing looks like. You can take certain tools, you can learn certain steps, you can apply certain skills, derisk things perhaps. But if you keep doing it the way that you're doing it, you will not, it won’t amount in change. Because you're just that's what got you here, not what gets you there. So, I think that that's–

Julie 34:42
I think we got here. 

Tim 34:44
I think we got here. A couple of couple of parting thoughts, which I think is good. And I think, you know, that willingness to put ourselves into that. That state of vulnerability and discomfort is really important. Which raises I guess what I would say, a thought that's really coming out for me right now. And I think for me personally, it's going to even help me with my clients, it'll help me with my kids. You bring this up when you're 50, and you're talking to other 50-year-olds about how they're feeling about life, my mental age is 26. I don't know why it just is 26. And we went, we're at dance competition this weekend, and I was going around the table with other parents and said, What's your mental age and people were like, 32, 37, 26, 23. Everybody could tell me who they are in their head. For whatever reason. I don't know why that is. But it's, you know, at a certain point, you look in the mirror, and you're surprised to see this face. 

Julie 35:37
Absolutely. Or this hair colour, right? We were talking about that? The silver quality of both of our pictures. 

Tim 35:46
Yeah, silver chin, the understanding that when we're making these leaps, we have to give up comfort, we have to say we're now at a point where we're making a change. And we're at this precipice. When we think of this now, in the parent-child context, the child is the one that's got to live with the consequence. They're on the edge, they're on the, they're ready to make the shift. When the parent or the mentor or whatever comes in, the All-Knowing, all-seeing, been there, done that, do it my way, mentor whatever, comes in over the top and speaks with such certainty. And such absolute, when in reality, our ass does not have to cash these checks. Do you know what I mean? Like we're about to make a decision that this child is going to have to live with maybe into their 30s, 40s, 50s. And I'm just saying to speak with it with such certainty. I would much rather take a moment and say, Wait a minute, picture your child as being in this uncomfortable, uncertain place. Stop for a moment and realise that you're not the only one feeling uncomfortable here. They're putting it up, they're putting up their chips to be risked, in a sense, it's not just us taking the risk. Maybe that's obvious to others. It's sure it's not obvious to me. It hasn't been as I've gone through this. 

Julie 37:20
Right? And I also think we, you know, we walk a delicate line, because depending on the age of your child, like you're not going to let your two-year-old decide, like, yeah, we have to keep them safe. And we need to meet them where they are. And love them for who they are not what they do, and take them the next step or two down the road. And here's the thing, I mean, we were talking off-camera about this. Every one of these things that's recruiting your child to be a thing is a business. They want your money, and they're trying to get you to sign up. So, that you feel stuck there. Or so you don’t miss out. 

Tim 38:02
Oh, you're talking about the extracurricular stuff. Sure. 

Julie 38:05
Yeah, all of the choirs and the hockeys and the dances and all the things. 

Tim 38:09
They got an angle. 

Julie 38:10
Yes, they have an angle. And quite frankly, your money will be just as good to them two months down the road, most of these things. So, if you say I have to sign up now because if I don't, you're not gonna let my kid in, there's a good chance that two or three months down the road, you could come in and say, you know what, we made the wrong decision. And we really want to be part of this, we realise what we're missing. And in all likelihood, they're going to take your money. They work for you. 

Tim 38:44
Sure. And then there's the, you know, I want my child to be successful. And so I want them to go into a certain vocation, and they've always gotten been good at math. So, therefore, they must be an engineer, or something. It's their life. They've got to deal with those consequences. So, I guess what I would say is, as a coach, I want to see my clients love their work, you know, not struggle, like all of those things that are just generally what I want for my clients. And I think as parents, sometimes we are willing to offer advice. But as a coach, I know that I'm not there to see that through. I can be with them, but they're doing the work. It's their lift. It's their choice. 

Julie 39:30
And we kind of want to see people struggle. 

​Tim 39:32
We do. 

Julie 39:33
With no struggle, there's no growth. 

Tim 39:35
100%, what I mean is that I think can sometimes be clouded as a parent, where we don't necessarily know what we're signing the child up for. And a few words spoken from our own baggage of what we should be or whatnot or living vicariously through them or making it about not letting our parents down or not letting, whatever, can program that child in a way that we don't even realise, right? Or may take choice away from them that we don't even realise? And it's not about I mean, I'm not saying everybody should be living a bohemian lifestyle where we're just like, hey, let it rip. 

Julie 40:14
Well, we're gonna do this in so many ways. Part of it is, I guess the hope is that we're conscious of some of the times that we're doing it. Because we're, I mean, none of us as parents are going to come out of this without making mistakes. Just as no parent, no parent ever does, right? Like, we're gonna mess up our child in some way. So, just getting clear about what we're doing and the direction that we're taking. Some people are gonna listen to us and say, Yeah, screw you. I'm going to still push my child to do this. Great–

Tim 40:42
Because it's more important.

Julie 40:43
Make a conscious choice. Yeah. 

Tim 40:45
Yep. Okay, I'm going to do two things here at the end, I'm going to ask if you could leave our listeners with any parting thought or have a wish for them, what would it be? What would you hope for anybody that's stuck with us this far? 

Julie 41:03
Well, I think it would be my favourite value, or virtue or whatever, which is courage. Courage, courage, courage to sit in the hard stuff to notice the emotions that you're having to not, you know, roll it away, or eat it away, or drink it away? Just to sit in that discomfort and just check in? What are my emotions actually telling me? Yeah. 

Tim 41:27
And how many of those are my super imposing perhaps? Or– 

Julie 41:31
Yeah, just like, what is what am I trying to figure out? 

Tim 41:32
Where are they coming from? Yeah, I love that. 

Julie 41:36
And how do I move forward? So, I wish for everyone courage, it's my favourite value. I think it's super powerful. What about you? 

Tim 41:43
So, what do I wish? I hope that, particularly when people are thinking about their own career space, that if they feel that something's not on, if they feel like something's not a fit, to stop and listen to that feeling. It doesn't mean you have to stop the train. You don't have to slam the brakes on. But pay attention to that feeling. And try to articulate it and try to write it down and really discover what's at the basis of that. What is actually bothering us? Because if we don't get down to that, if we're not fluent in the thing that's bothering us, and why, then that can come out in all sorts of negative ways. Whereas, if we can get fluent in it, and understand where it was from, as you say, we can then design for the future, right? We can make a choice, we can understand how that what's influencing that tight knot. And I think then the second part of that is, spare a little thought for understanding when you were having all these moments of discovery and potentially insecurities or whatnot. Kids feel this stuff, too. I make a point at the dance studio, even when kids are eight. I try to talk to them, like human beings, which I still have a responsibility to be an adult, I get that. But what I'm asking what they're doing, I want to talk to them and listen to them as if they're maybe not fully formed. But their thinking, feeling beings with their own view on the world. Because if I hear it through my adult years, I'm not listening. I'm taking my position and processing through it, which has to happen on some level. But the flip side is trying to see what's, get down on your knees and see what the world looks like, from their perspective. And I just think we listen with a fuller heart, or with a more open heart when we do that.

Julie 43:41
And courage is also comes from the heart, curl kurage. It's feeling scared and doing it anyway and finding the strength to do it anyway, that comes from love. So yes, the heart is a big part of this whole thing. 

Tim 43:53
So, we've got one more piece of business. But before we get to that, I want to ask you, if people want to reach out to you, where can they find you? 

Julie 44:00
Probably the easiest place to connect with me is at my website, parentmentornow.com. You can send me an email through there, you can check out all of my services, you can book a free call with me. All of those things are easy. You can find my book there. Everything's there. So, parentmentornow.com. 

Tim 44:20
The last piece of business, we are episode 34. Our previous episode was Brent Yogge, who is a section chief with the FBI in technology and counterterrorism and things like this. Excellent. Excellent, excellent, but the tradition of late is to ask every guest to drop a question on the guest after them. So, Brent's question. I'm going to try to paraphrase this a little bit. When you think about individuals, he was talking about individual contributors. But in this case, it could be anybody that's contributing say, to a family or to a, in a job or on the choir or anything that you're involved in. But especially those that are looking out for others in your vocation that could be parents potentially? How do you inspire them to really adopt the mindset and perspective that they are leaders, that they are influencing others, that they are in that position of power? And then how do you encourage them to be just leaders? Or the leaders they want to be? That's his question. And I think it's how do you inspire them to really embrace that idea of leadership? And even if they're not managers, we're not just talking about managers, we're talking about people that are influencing something other than themselves outside of themselves? How do you inspire them to really take that on? If that works in your context? And then once they have that, how do you encourage them to embrace and fully actualize that? So, first of all, to be it, and then to make it there, to see it through? 

Julie 46:10
Okay, so thanks for not warning me about this beforehand.

Tim 46:12
 No, it’s fine.

Julie 46:15
So, I work very hard at living the life that I speak about. So, I model the life that I encourage for others. And one of those things is I empathise with people and see them for their path that they're walking, not my path that I'm walking. So, I am, I hope that what I do is I check in with them, see them, help them to know that they are not alone in the struggle that they're having. Because more often than not, I've met somebody who feels exactly the same way as they have, they are feeling. And sometimes we feel like we're the only one going through this. And so it's really hard to find the courage to step forward, when we feel like we're not alone, maybe we feel a little less shameful, we can climb out of that shame and step forward. So, just connecting with people seeing them for who they are and building community around them. And then helping them to find, you know, comes back to that how, helping them to find that one step that they can take that feels safe for them to take, that's going to move them out of where they're stuck one little bit, so that they can feel good about that and believe that they can change and then help them to make the next step. 

Tim 47:42
That it's not this overnight success, everything everywhere all at once. 

Julie 47:47
I think that's how I do it. 

Tim 47:48
I don’t know, I would say that that is exactly how you do it, having been on the receiving end of that. So, I think and I think that was a perfect answer, and this is why I love this show. Because it's like this is where we have knowledge coming from you. That, as far as I'm concerned is directly applicable into the life of somebody who's trying to mentor other leaders or bring up their staff, or anything like that. All right, yeah. One last question. 

Julie 48:11
What's my question? 

Tim 48:12
What's your question for the next person to put them on the hot seat? Understanding they may not be parents or they may not be whatnot. Let er’ rip? What would you be curious about? 

Julie 48:24
How did they find the courage to do the hard things?

Tim 48:32
Julie Freedman Smith, so many hugs coming your way. 

Julie 48:35
And right back to you, my friend. 

Tim 48:37
Okay, I can't wait till we can do this again. Thanks very much for joining us.

Julie 48:39
Thank you, so much fun.

Tim 48:46
Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.