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TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
Episode Summary: In this episode, Tim welcomes Amreesh Khanna, a visionary entrepreneur and the founder of OraQ, a company revolutionizing the dental industry through clinical AI solutions. Amreesh shares how OraQ is standardizing patient exams, empowering patients with transparency, and strengthening the patient-clinician relationship through informed decisions and trust. Tune in for an inspiring conversation about innovation in healthcare, leadership lessons, and the power of community impact.
Episode Notes In this episode, Tim welcomes Amreesh Khanna, a visionary entrepreneur and the founder of OraQ, a company revolutionizing the dental industry through clinical AI solutions. Amreesh shares how OraQ is standardizing patient exams, empowering patients with transparency, and strengthening the patient-clinician relationship through informed decisions and trust. He explains how dentists play a crucial role in identifying and preventing systemic health issues such as cardiac and respiratory problems. Amreesh also highlights the potential of AI in healthcare, including its ability to predict patient outcomes and personalize treatment plans. Beyond his professional endeavors, Amreesh discusses his passion for community service and his work with the nonprofit organization Cause to Smile, which aims to empower the dental community and support local initiatives. He reflects on the importance of balancing professional ambitions with giving back and shares insights on leadership, decision-making, and reframing failure as a learning opportunity. Tune in for an inspiring conversation about innovation in healthcare, leadership lessons, and the power of community impact. About Amreesh Khanna Dr. Amreesh Khanna refers to himself as a professional tooth enthusiast, more commonly known as a Dentist. He has a deep passion for the integration of AI/ML in clinical applications and is at the forefront of advancing precision dental care through his start-up, OraQ AI. This company is dedicated to redefining ethical dental practice growth by prioritizing optimal patient care. With over 17 years of clinical dental experience, Dr. Khanna has encountered numerous challenges and successes on his entrepreneurial journey as a dental practice owner. In terms of patient care, he has been involved in complex treatments, including dental implants, bone and gum grafting, IV conscious sedation, dental sleep medicine for patients with obstructive sleep apnea, and oral rehabilitation for individuals with complex TMD, tooth wear, and bite concerns. Dr. Khanna remains actively engaged in his field as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Alberta Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry. Additionally, he has established his own dental education platform called ADEPT Dental Education, which aims to drive accelerated growth on the clinical and business sides of Dentistry. Community involvement has always held great importance in Dr. Khanna’s life. As a dental student, he founded the SHINE Dental Clinic in Edmonton to provide dental care to those in need. He also leads a non-profit organization called Cause to Smile, which strives to "do good beyond the walls of our clinics." Away from his professional endeavors, Dr. Khanna enjoys traveling with his wife and two young daughters, creating cherished memories that will last a lifetime. Resources discussed in this episode: Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: Contact Amreesh Khanna | OraQ AI: Transcript Amreesh 00:01 There's no failure in leadership if we are reflecting on it appropriately. There's good leaders and bad leaders. But if we're those honest leaders that are constantly reflecting about what we're doing, why we're doing, you know, like all these things, that we're thoughtfully and genuinely trying to do what's best, well, if that's the case, then there shouldn't be any failure in leadership too. Because without having the ups and downs and things working and not working, how would we even be where we are today, or able to do it right? Tim 00:33 I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action. Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and this is the 50th episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 1:06 Welcome back to the sweet on leadership podcast, where we explore stories and strategies behind remarkable leaders, and we're certainly joined by one of those today. I am thrilled that sitting across from me virtually is Amreesh Khanna, a visionary, an entrepreneur, driving force behind Ora! AI. Amreesh, we've known each other now for about two years, roughly, having met through Startup TNT, I am so impressed at how you are disrupting your industry in such a positive and empowering way for both the dental community and the patients, and I would love for you to introduce yourself and and let us into what drives you in that space. So, welcome Amreesh. Amreesh 01:53 Thank you so much. Tim. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show, and thank you for thinking of me to bring you on here, share my experiences and hopefully give something insightful to your listeners. Yeah, it's been great getting to know you and through the tech community here in Calgary, Startup, TNT, as you mentioned, was kind of what brought us together initially, and where I was sharing my journey, and you know, where we were going with my startup called OraQ AI. What we're doing, you know, a little bit, I guess, call it about myself and what we're doing with OraQ, we're the only clinical AI solution in dentistry that standardizes a comprehensive patient exam and engages a patient with full transparency and ownership of their oral health data. What does that mean to you and your listeners? I mean, we've all got a story where one dentist told you one thing and another dentist told you something else, and you're kind of like sitting there leaving, like, are they just trying to sell me on something I don't really get that? You know, I've had this feeling this way, and somebody's now telling me I need a crown. And it's like, why is that happening? And you know, how do we really make sure that patients understand their reasons behind the recommendations in a way that they can truly trust their dentist and know that their dentist does have their overall health at the best interest at the forefront of their mind. But then also at the clinical level. Like our user is the clinician, and their practice is, how do we support the clinicians around precision care, right? And how do we drive those decisions around what we need to do for our patient, you know, to not be tooth to tooth dentists like let's look at the patient as a whole. Let's look at them comprehensively. Let's look at their medical health, how that all impacts their overall wellness journey, and make sure that we can empower them with the information that they need all at the tips of their fingers. We call it the mind and the wisdom of 1000 dentists to both dentists and patients, so we can make better decisions, more informed decisions, and then empower our patients to make the right decision as well too. Tim 03:45 I think that's absolutely fantastic. I've always been told and maybe you can clear this up for me, the mouth says so many things about the health of the body, but also and tell me if this is true, if you've got poor dental health, you typically can have cardiac problems, you can have respiratory problems, you can be at increased risks for for cancer and gastrointestinal issues. Is that? Is that? Is that a thing? Amreesh 04:11 Yeah. I mean, you know, so one of the things that is always a big component at least of my clinical education journey was what we call the oral, systemic health connection, the dental medical connection, right? I went to the University of Alberta for dental school, and through my educational journey over there, medical and dental was actually together for the first two years, so we did all the medical classes alongside with our dental classes. And I mean, I loved it. I was probably one of the Keeners that loved it, the few that really loved it that way. But it's because I found it so fascinating, again, because everything is connected, right. With that connection, at the end of the day, infection in our body, inflammation in the mouth, all translates to have effects with other things like you mentioned, right? You know, cardiovascular issues. It's linked to preterm births with women who are pregnant. And one big thing we look at now sleep disorder, breathing, obstructive sleep apnea, right? And the amount of research that's come over the past 10 plus years that shows how we look at clenching and grinding and people that we'd say, Oh, you're stressed out, you're grinding your teeth, let's give you a night guard. Really, it was all stemming to an underlying airway disturbance that dentists and hygienists and the dental community are in a very unique position to be able to screen for these things. Because you see your dentist often, a lot more than you see your family physician, right? And so how can we play a role in early intervention prevention, flagging those areas of concern, so that now we can tell you, hey, something might be going on here, right? Like, we're not seeing you improving in, say, your periodontal, your gum health. Well, is there something else going on? Like, are you diabetic? Do you have, you know, you know, cardiovascular issues, other inflammatory markers in your body that could translate to other issues, right, and play a role in that, right? So find that really fascinating. Again, part of the core in our AI platform too, is, well, how do we bring that awareness to everybody? Right? Because, you know, not everybody might have geeked out the same way that I did when it came out to the medical side of things, right? So how do we bring that mind and the wisdom of 1000 dentists, again, so that every patient coming in the door, we understand what is their medical risk, even so that we can screen for things early, we can send them back to their doctor to say, hey. Like, we're not saying we're a physician here, but like, go get something checked out something doesn't seem right here. Rather, you check it out and make sure you're okay, then find out later that something got way worse than they could have intervened earlier too, right? Tim 06:37 Well, and a dental visit is much more accepted as a maintenance style activity, rather than than solely an intervention with a disease or something. But I imagine, I mean fascinating to find out how many people will talk more regularly about their health to their Barber. I don't have that problem, but to their Barber, their hairdresser, than they do to their doctor, because it's a maintenance activity. They're there on a schedule more or less, and you know, the doctor is going to check your tonsils and look in your mouth anyway. So if you've got a healthcare provider that's under the hood, you know, on a regular basis, that should be a logical place to start collecting data, triggering further investigation, doing all of those things that the patient themselves may not appreciate is going on. Amreesh 07:26 You got it. And I think that's exactly the core to our solution, is bringing that awareness first, have asking the right questions, right? Because, you know, as a healthcare provider, we can ask and we need to be asking those questions, right, instead of your barber, right? What medications are you on? Right? Understanding, connecting those dots again. But what if one clinician is not asking all of the questions, they're only asking 20% of them, and another clinician is asking 50% and another clinician is asking 80 or 100% Why does that happen? Right? And it's all because, I mean, we're all human. We all have our mind full of a ton of things that we're trying to do the best for the, you know, patient, or the service, or, you know, industry that we're providing care with to that individual. But if we can just sometimes nudge and support like, I mean, what we truly are is a clinical decision support system, right, is nudge to collect the right information. Give you meaning around the information as a clinician, firstly, to understand that what's the impact of that information I just collected on my patient and my plan. And then give you as a patient an understanding of it, so that you sit up and you see your health in green, yellow and red and know, okay, shoot, I don't know what all that other stuff meant that you just told me about, but I know green is good, yellow is okay, and red is bad, right? And so what do I got to do about this? Tim 08:50 Customize the dashboard for the level of knowledge or the level of expertise of the of the patient, so they have a check engine light around their their health and I think that that's, yeah, that's, that's amazing. Plus, I mean, just from a data perspective, centralizing data, making it available to everybody, getting that, that holistic picture, even though you're doing it through different people, and filling in the blanks, it's so important, because otherwise we just have all this orphan knowledge and orphan data just floating out there. And how do we, we're relying on the patient to centralize that and communicate that story in a layman's term, from from provider to provider, rather than, yeah. Okay with you. I think that. I think that that's fantastic. Before we get going too much further, I want us to hear from Karen Dommett. She had a question for you as a guest, which is a bit of a tradition, and don't worry, at the end of the podcast, you're going to have a chance to lob your own question at the next guest. But for right now, let's, let's take a listen to Karen's. Karen Dommett 09:53 So, when you find yourself at a crossroads of conflicting good that conflicts with good, yeah. How do you find that moment of clarity or that direction in those conflicting moments? Amreesh 10:05 You know this ties into probably a deeper discussion even today, is that like as driven entrepreneurs, leaders, executives, we often like want everything to be right and ensure that we have de-risked every decision that we've made, and find the data and the pros and cons and the lists that we make, and everything to make that right decision. I think something that maybe I don't trust enough too and that would help me on this is that gut and intuition right? Like, trusting that we've come this far to be in a position that we are in to be, you know, have the honor of making a decision like that, right? That people are trusting us with that decision, that we also have to trust a little bit in our intuition and gut and around what's guiding us there, right? And then take the chance. In this particular question, we're choosing between two good things, where we're not going to know what the end result outcome might be, but we know we're choosing between two good things, so we've done the analysis to really know that these are two directions that are good for us, but what's gonna what is my gut maybe pulling me towards? Because there's something there that we probably can't, you know, articulate or give a reason behind, but something's going to draw us to one or the other. And I think you got to trust that. Tim 11:25 And I think it's it's funny when you watch leaders at those crossroads and they have to make that decision. Often, they can find what they were looking for in the in the second decision down the road, or it wasn't as binary decision as they thought it was going to be. It could be a matter of timing or something. But, you know, making that decision and having I love that what you said, you know, we are privileged to have that, that ability to be the one deciding. And so Trust yourself, trust your gut, keep going. Love it. Great, great. And that, again, was from Karen Dommett. Karen is the manager of Games and Competition at Special Olympics Canada, so great episode with her wonderful conversation. And I'd recommend that you take a listen very inspiring stuff. Speaking of which, you don't just run OraQ, you've got this history of running, not for profits, volunteer organizations, philanthropy. Can you tell me a little more about that? Because I think that's a that's a part of your profile that I find, again, just very inspiring. Amreesh 12:36 Yeah. Anyway, you know, I think I was brought up always with community and giving as something that was very important to me. My parents came to Canada from India in the late 70s. Always were involved in, you know, the East Indian community in town, finding ways to give back, support, help in whatever way they could, you know. And so I saw a lot of that growing up. And, you know, got involved in ways to do so. And I think what I realized over time was that you know, I was doing it, and why was I doing it right? Like, I would maybe grade some fundraising thing in high school. I, in dental school, I founded a student-run clinic, which is, you know, 20 plus years of existence they call the Shine Dental Clinic in Edmonton. And I was like, Well, why am I doing this, and what, how do I get the energy to do this, amongst all the other things that I'm doing? To me, that aspect of giving filled a certain bucket in my life that other things couldn't, right? Not saying that there was deficiency or something lacking in other things that I was involved in, whether that's, you know, My family, it's my friends, it's a social circles. You know, beliefs, you have your professional ambitions, but there was something around the giving that still, I couldn't feed in all those other aspects myself, but when I did that, I really lit me up, right? And so, that's where I continue to try to find ways, you know, we're busy doing lots of things all the time, but finding some ways to thread that into my life, and hopefully, just like I was I saw it, and my parents show my two daughters, you know, that's an important part of living, right? So, yeah. Tim 14:15 Yeah. Well, and it fills you with an energy, as you say, or a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning that may not be in such great concentrations in other areas of your life. So you're really creating this whole life experience. And yeah, I, you know, you said a little bit about you've had asked, answered questions about finding energy to do it all. And, you know, I think, to Karen's question, you're making choices about where you're going to apply your time, and you're making choices about what you can invest your time in, what you can put support towards, and what you might have to lay fallow, or something right that you can't, you can't deal with right off the bat. How do you find, do you find that there's conflict throughout the different aspects of your life, at least drawing on your own time and things like that? Like, is it? Do you ever get pulled in those two different directions? As Karen says? Amreesh 15:14 Yeah, you know, is it like having that ambition and drive? Definitely, you know, I'm always like, oh, wow, like, that's something great. I want to be involved in that, or I want to do this, or I want to do that, right? I think what I've, I've learned over especially, to call it the last five years having, you know, great mentors, coaches, people in my life that kind of helped me piece this together was that if I have multiple things that I'm involved in that ultimately have some overlap and congruency around what is I'm passionate about, what my own personal values are. Then I found that those were actually not conflicting, right? Because the, like, from the outside, somebody might be like, whoa. Like, what do you do? And you're doing all these things, like, how do you find the time to do this, it’s amazing? And it's like, yeah, that's crazy. Half the time, yeah, it's crazy. Half the time still, too. Like, not the, you know, my wife will say, You're crazy. It was picking up the next or doing this and doing that, but when they're all tied together, then that's what drives, like, the energy around me, right? And I, I kind of went through this, you know, about, you know, five years ish, go like, you know, I have great personal, you know, coaches, mentors, been part of organizations. I was part of Tec Canada for quite, you know, 10 years. And did this personal values exercise, like you'll see up here, inspire, influence, educate, is something that I put together that was like, Who, what defined me as like values and what I wanted to do, right? So that then, when I looked at okay, what was I doing in my dental practices? What was I doing with my education platform for dentists? What was doing with my nonprofit? What was I doing in Oracle? They all tie back and led to this, right? And they… Yeah. So then for me, it gave me kind of that North Star that I'm like, I'm not distracted, I'm actually just doing different things, but they're all to serve that energy or to serve that ultimate purpose. Tim 17:13 You know, when we talk about purpose, especially among high performers and whatnot, there's a fluency around what our purpose is. And then there's the whatever we do in our life, if it furthers that purpose, we achieve that congruency. As you said, it's such a love that word, it just means that it's not I've always found with myself, it's not work. And it sounds like such a trite thing to say, but honestly, I can be working late. I just came through a crazy week this past week, probably one of the nuttiest weeks I've had in years. But it wasn't work. It was it was hard, it was challenging, but it wasn't work and it wasn't exhausting in the same like physically a little exhausting. Mentally, no, no. Mentally, spiritually, whatever you want to put, put it on that side of things. I was living, man. You know what I mean, I'm just exactly where I where I need to be. And so, yeah, I can definitely get down with that. Amreesh 18:18 And I was gonna say, like, Tim, like you, like you said, like, yeah, we're physically exhausted, like you probably went to sleep, doesn't it to be like, holy, I am just like, done, right? Tim 18:25 Sometimes can't even get to sleep because I'm I am tired physically, but I am so energized mentally and emotionally that you have to kind of go for a walk, listen to a book tape, you know? Yeah, have a cup of tea. Because, you know what I mean? Amreesh 18:41 Yeah, what I was gonna say, like, I think like you said it really nice is like, because it's part of your purpose and your drive and your vision and where you want to be and where you're making your impact. That's what still gets us up the next morning to be like, All right, that was like, really hard, but I'm ready to do it again, even though it's like, hard. I'm like, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep going, right? Tim 19:03 So we talk about that energy management. And you know, in my practice, a lot of times, we're always dealing with this balance between creative energy, which is that can be that anxiety-rich, stress-rich, creative process, and then the ability to maintain calm and control and have those systems so that you know that you are, that you are safe, basically, or safe enough. And that you've got the data coming in that you need, and you can just, you know, you can just relax a little bit and say, You know what I've got, what I need. So I'm this picture is emerging for me, of you, Amreesh, where you know you've got this, inspire, influence, educate, purpose. We have this, these community clinics and whatnot that you've set up, these, not for profits, that are helping people, and that's a big part of your Venn diagram. And then over here, we have Q AI, which really, you know, is putting this knowledge, or this information and this data into the hands of both the health provider and the patient, right? And all of that, to me, smacks of creating freedom for other people. Like it's creating, you're empowering other people, and you're doing it through exactly as you've gotten back there, you know. Are you inspiring? Are you influencing? Are you educating? You're giving people data they need. And that, to me, is really on that control side. You know, it's that, yeah, I've got the, I got the base. So can you talk to me a little bit more about that? Am I? Am I reading you right there? Like, is there? Is there? Do you find that that reduce…. like me, do you find that reducing the struggle in people's life is really, is, is really fulfilling? Amreesh 20:58 When I put my clinician hat on, like we want to do what's best for our patient, and in order for us to do what's best for our patient, we as a clinician, need to be empowered, as you said, have the right data, have the control, the confidence to do what's best, and we also need the patient to believe it, right? And and so because then we get at a crossroads as clinicians, where sometimes you're like, I want to do the good for my patient, but my patient doesn't accept that if they don't proceed with that treatment for whatever reason. You know, they don't value. That's financial reasons, it's insurance, it's like, whatever. There's a multitude of reasons, but I always go back to value, right? And I think like, data, knowledge, if used in the right way, empowers us all, right? And it gives us then the confidence, right? Because it's, I think, in order to get the trust with a patient, we have to be confident in what and why we're doing something. I mean, you, you, and your listeners would have a feeling where they know they're sitting there with whoever their healthcare provider is. I mean, it's a very, you know, intimate, vulnerable state to be in which whatever provider you're sitting there when they're telling you they're going to do something or stick you with a needle or whatever. But how do you trust them? And you can feel like there's something there that I trust this person, or I'm not sure if I do right. So, like, so I think then get back to like, what you're saying about, like, control and data and all these things. Like, I think I look at it as more like, when I felt good and confident in my clinician journey of treating my patients was when I let go of like, why or why not, my patients are doing something, and just try to do the best for them, right? And so in order for me to do the best, I needed to have the right data, have the right approach with my patients, the right philosophy, the education, everything that I needed to do to feel that confidence. So then I could say, Hey, Tim, this is all what's going on, like, but I support you, whatever way you want to go. That's when I saw, hey, my practice thrive, right? And I was doing the fun dentistry, making an impact on many patients. Like, you're not going to win everybody over, right? But they just might not be ready at that time. And patients valued it. Patients could see it, you could feel it right, and then at the same time, now we're empowering a patient to understand that. So I think there's, like, there's all these like, kind of gaps that I saw, like, hence, you know, where a division of work you came about to kind of solve those pain points, solve those gaps. Tim 23:38 Yeah, well, the way I'm seeing it is, OraQ is also, what I love… I know. Sorry, I mean, this is, I'm taking this a little too far, but it's taking that practice of, you know, going with, how do we help them help themselves, or or whatnot. How do we do what's best for them? And it's, it's systemizing it. So let me ask you this question, because a lot of people that are listening are not going to be dentists, but everything that you've just said when it comes to, you know, focusing on value and confidence, having these vulnerable and influential moments, really having that power and that influence, but then translating that into belief and trust that isn't just having talked to you, I know that that this doesn't exist, that isn't just in your system. I would imagine that that influences how you approach your student-run clinic, how you how you mentor people, how you run your own business. Are these same philosophies exactly what you apply when you're dealing with staff, exactly what you're when you're dealing with partners? Amreesh 24:45 Yeah, like, I'd say, I would be not truthful if I said, Oh, I do this all the time, right? These are things that I have learned over time, that I strive to do. So have I made plenty of mistakes along the way? With, you know, how I've dealt with team, staff, anything in over the years in my various businesses, absolutely. But I think then looking at that a bit differently is what's kind of brought me to understanding a different focus here, right? And approach. Tim 25:17 Let me reword this question for you. Do you think that that same approach that you take, that you're trying to bring between the the the doctor, patient relationship, is transferable for a person that's in a leadership position in an organization? Can they approach things the same way? Amreesh 25:37 Yeah, that's where I think, you know, like, that's a great question. Because I think that's what I've tried to take. And I don't know if I have the exact, firm solution, answer playbook for that kind of today, but what's made me reflect a lot on, like, my thinking around that, because, in one sense, as I said, where I got free in my world as a clinician, that then led me to kind of build this was when I took the risk off of me, and it was like, let me get look at the data, let me look at this and support it, empower the other individual, in this case, the patient, to make a decision. Well, so how do you look at that, I guess, from a business perspective, then that's really interesting question, because I think we look at data as leaders, definitely right. We look at the risks and benefits of of the decisions that we're going to make similarly to what, I'm you know, we do in OraQ. But probably one thing that I've had to learn and continue to learn, is the outcome of doing or not doing something, what that translates to is it a failure or success? Right? And I think that's something that I often reflect on more now. I don't know if that makes sense. Tim 26:55 No, it does. We had a conversation a little bit earlier where we were listening to a video together of a basketball player that was faced with this exact question. We'll take another listen to that right now and then we can talk a little bit about how does keeping it real in your own leadership journey, not just making it real for your staff, but keeping it real for yourself. Free you up to deal with feelings of failure or whether or not we're dealing with imposter syndrome or anything else. Amreesh 27:27 Yeah [Clip of Basketball Player Giannis Antetokounmpo] Reporter 27:29 I just asked Bud the exact same question, but I'm curious for you, do you view this season as a failure? Giannis 27:34 Oh, my God, okay, because I'm not that up. You asked me the same question last year, Eric. Okay. Do you get do you get the promotion every year on your job, no, right? So every year you work as a failure, yes or no? No. Every, every year you work, you work towards something, towards a goal, right, which is to get a promotion, to be able to take care of your family, to be able, I don't know, provide the house for them, or take care of your parents. You work towards a goal is not a failure. It's steps to success, you know. And if you've never, I don't know, I don't want to, I don't want to make it personal. So there's always steps to it, you know. Michael Jordan played 15 years, won six Championship, the other nine years was a failure? That's what you're telling me. Reporter 28:34 I'm asking a question, yes or no? Giannis 28:37 Okay, exactly. So why are you asking that question? It's a wrong question. There's no failure in sports. You know, there's good days, bad days, some days, some days, you are able to be successful. Some days you're not. Some days, it's your turn. Some days it's not your turn, and that's what sports about, you don't always win. Some other other people is going to win, and this year, somebody else going to win. Similar as that, going to come back next year. Try to be better, try to build good habits, try to play better, not have a 10 day stretch with playing bad basketball, you know. And hopefully we can win a championship. So 50 years from 1971 to 2021 that we didn't win a championship. It was 50 years of failures? No, it was not. It was steps to it, you know, and we were able to win one, hopefully we can win another one? You know, I sorry that I didn't want to make it personal because you asked me the same question last year, and last year I was in the in the right mind space to answer the question back, but I remember it. [End of clip] Tim 29:33 So, when we listen to Giannis talk about failure, when we listen to him answer this reporter's question, what comes to mind for you? Amreesh 29:42 The question you asked me before, plus the listening to this quote here, right? I think like to tie both together. I don't know if I can say, you know, have I figured out the entire approach that I've taken through my AI company, and how to apply that to leadership in a sense, right, and failure and success? What I have learned is moving from a—what was my bread and butter before, which was, you know, being a dentist and treating patients and running dental practice to going into a startup, right? How that shifted my perception and view around success and failure in a very different way. And so that resonates really well with this quote we just heard, because in a health world, you're very much primed to like, failure kind of isn't an option, right? Like you you can't do something and have it fail or try something out, and you don't think of it that way. Or everything you're trying to do is, is striving for that perfection to help your patient be right? Tim 30:39 Do no harm. Amreesh 30:40 Yeah, exactly right. Whereas in a startup world, so much of it is about like, testing assumptions, testing this, trying that, trying this, trying that, okay, you're going to win some. You're going to fail some. That is exactly, I think, what he said, and there's no failure in sport. Well, I think there's no failure in leadership, if we are reflecting on it appropriately. There's good leaders and bad leaders, but if we're those honest leaders that are constantly reflecting about what we're doing, why we're doing, you know, like all these things, that we're thoughtfully and genuinely trying to do what's best. Well, if that's the case, then there shouldn't be any failure in leadership too, because without having the ups and downs and things working and not working, how would we even be where we are today or able to do it right? Tim 31:24 That's right. I mean, I remember years ago playing chess with my son, and he said, do you get angry that John beats you at that game? And I said, No, I don't. I don't get angry. I mean, any more than he was getting angry when I was beating him like chess is, you don't learn anything in chess by winning. You learn by making mistakes and then anticipating other people's mistakes. That's really the game. It's a game of mistakes in a way, and opportunities. But yeah, you cannot appreciate where you are today without accepting all the failures you would never be. It's a good thing. We can't affect the time, space continuum, or go back and I. And yeah, mistakes or we would get nowhere. Amreesh 32:06 But it's hard. I'll admit it's been very hard, and still is hard for me to kind of shift that perspective in my own mind, because I want to succeed, and how I then define myself and what I'm doing and where I want to go about success, right, and then holding benchmarks or parameters, or what I'm defining that is like, where I think we start to put the pressure on ourselves and all these kinds of things, right? Whereas giving room for that is definitely something I've had to learn in this journey of like being in a technology startup world. I think there's people in a startup who are in that world or big founders that come out. Like, you know, right away. You know, you hear all these, you know, the Silicon Valley stories, and the founders in the basements of the garage is doing things, and they're just like, oh, it's all good. If this doesn't work, I'm on to the next one, right? That's just not how I was wired, right? Like, and so for me to think that way is like, whoa. Like, what do you mean? It's like, okay, if this doesn't work out, like, for me, it's like, no, there's no option. This has to work out. So that's a good thing. It drives but it also, you know, it has its, yeah, Tim 33:16 Making it work out through perfection too early in the game is really troublesome, right? Because if you go for perfection and you keep and you could burn out like you could, you know, I remember in the 80s, late 80s, Toyota or Lexus had a what was it? The the relentless pursuit of perfection, I think was one of their taglines, right? Or passionate pursuit of perfection, or, or something along those lines. But it's like, yeah. I mean, that's the long term goal, is to make it as good as it can be, and to always know that there's always a step further that we can take. But the journey there is not without failure, not without error, right? So do I have you there? Am I on your wavelength? Amreesh 34:00 Yeah. Tim 34:01 When you think, then when you see this sort of manifesting for the people that are around us and whatnot, I see people that find themselves in periods of scarcity, when they forget that it this is a long game, when they forget that it's okay to experiment and have small, controlled failures, and sometimes even big, gnarly failures, that pursuit of perfection, that insistence on perfection, seems to be really emptying a lot of people's gas tanks. Could you be where you are right now, at this point in life, if you held on to that belief that every move had to be perfect, every move had to be stellar, Amreesh 34:40 I think for like, you know, high performing leaders who have that ambition and drive, they do hold themselves likely at that high standard, which is why they get to where they are and drive and create change and create companies or lead companies and things right? But what I'm learning is that if everything doesn't work exactly the way I thought it should work, or how I mapped out on a whiteboard and planned it out that that's not failure. Tim 35:11 No. Amreesh 35:13 Like that is like, just because something you didn't hit that goal, you didn't hit that milestone like, doesn't mean that that is failure. Like, you know, you have to do something about that. But I think, rather than getting into business, operational side of things, it's more about like, my perception of that, right? Like, because I would then perceive that as maybe a failure and not enough, right? Tim 35:31 If you're climbing the mountain, it's important that you have solid footing, but if you're going to chastise yourself every time your foot slips, you're not going to get very far, right? Amreesh 35:41 Yes, exactly. Tim 35:42 As we wrap up here, I just want to play a quote that you had shared with me that's hanging on your wall. And so we're gonna just, we're gonna listen to that really quick, and then I would like you to tell us what that means to you. [Man in the Arena (Theodore Roosevelt) read by JFK] JFK 35:53 Theodore Roosevelt once said, The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause. Who at best, if he wins, knows the thrills of high achievement, and if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. Amreesh 36:35 Yeah, you know, this is something. There's a quote that I heard reading and listening to like Brene Brown some years ago. And it just really struck me, because it's something that I do read often, and I mean, it's right in front of me as I look here today, and it's, it's funny, because I got to remind myself of it, because it literally says, you know, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, right? And here I am talking about perception change around my failure. And I got the quote right in front of me. But it's like that, you know, I thought a lot about it all because, and for so long, because it, I think, has shaped that we are the ones taking the risk, taking the chances, making those decisions between those two rights, or whatever it is, or right and wrong. We are holding ourselves to such a like, Oh, my God, I have to be right, right? But we're not. Tim 37:26 At every step of the way. Amreesh 37:27 Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, like we've are also the ones that have the privilege, the honor and taken the risk to make those decisions in the first place, so that in itself, you know, is daring greatly, that in itself is not failure, failing in that one moment or one decision doesn't define, I think, who we are, right and so and define the what success for us. Tim 37:53 And if we're creating that sense of freedom, that sense of space for employees or for customers, or for for my coaching clients, or for dental clients, where it's like, no, we're not going to lose you're not going to lose the wrong teeth. But you know, we can put things into a larger timeline. We can put things into bigger context, so that we can realize that these little decisions sometimes have more flexibility than we would would say otherwise, and we don't have to be right all the time if we're constantly congruent with what our long term aims are. That's a big source of capacity loss for a lot of people, when I see teams that are not, you know, free to fail or not free to to there's just too much risk, and even the smallest errors, perceived risk, particularly man, it tires people out. It makes teams go quiet. There's a whole bunch of awful things that happen internally and externally, if that's what we allow to to exist. Amreesh 39:02 Yes. Tim 39:03 Sorry, now you know what I think. All right, so Amrees, let's, let's talk a little bit about again as we're, as we're heading towards the end here, we heard Karen's question to you. First of all, thanks for this journey. You know, we come a long ways. I think it's, it was a very, very rich discussion. There's a lot of angles here. I think, you know, if you had one wish for the people that are listening today, what would you want them to take away from our conversation. Amreesh 39:29 That feeling of you're in a position of leadership, whatever role you're in, management, executive, whatever is doesn't really matter, like you're leading some form of a vision and some form of people in some organization right, to achieve a certain purpose, that it's like, you are enough, you've come this far, that the pressure that we hold upon ourselves to make every decision right, in every way, like we're going to be okay, I got to be more gentle on my own self. So that's where I think it's like, how can we we all take that that like, hey, reflect on where we are. We wouldn't be in this position today if we we didn't have a skill or or some form of influence that got us here. So we've got to trust in that too. Tim 40:13 You think about the eclectic group of people that we have visit this show. If you were to lob a question at one of them, what would it be? Amreesh 40:19 You know, I like what you were saying about that relentless pursuit of perfection, and, you know, and we were talking earlier too, like, I think we talked about the rejection of perfection, right? So, what is it that you could do or change in how you reflect upon yourself as a leader, to reject perfection, change your perspective on failure and success that would help you be better at what you do today, and have that influence on the people and the purpose that you lead with? Tim 40:49 Cool so possibly even a reframing what's one failure that you think You could reframe as a, as not diabolical, not disastrous. Amreesh 41:00 Yeah, and that, that, you know, reinforces who you are, or shapes how you want to lead differently, I guess. Tim 41:07 What do you got going on? What's one thing that you're excited about and you want people to know, know about? Amreesh 41:12 Obviously, living and breathing in the world of AI these days, and so, you know, that's something that excites me a lot. I mean, we're seeing the advent of AI in so many aspects of our world. Everybody's playing with chat GPT now, and that kind of thing, right? I think we are seeing that this is going to be a part of our future no matter what. But, you know, there's people who are scared about it, and there's people are embracing it, and there's got to be a happy medium in between, of course, in every way. So what excites me a lot right now is like, how we're incorporating that in the world of health, right? And, you know, I was at a conference last month called Health, one of the largest digital health conferences in North America, and got the pleasure of listening to the VP of health and life sciences from Nvidia, and she was talking about, you know, how the integration of these types of technologies, the large language models, and how they're interpreting and thinking slow to think, thinking fast and thinking slow to reasoning, and how this is going to support us with what we do. And something that, just like blew my mind, is this whole concept of a virtual Omniverse, as they called it. And what we talk about within our company and other health companies is the digital twin concept, like the power of if we use this data and things correctly and use this technology correctly, imagine that world where we can be answering those questions for the patient around I'm going to be providing you this treatment or therapy or medication or whatever, and I can simulate what's going to happen to you before I give it to you. That just blows my mind, because I'm just like, that would be so cool. In a dental world, we always get asked a question, Hey, Doc, you know, can I wait on that crown till my insurance turns over next year or something like that? And I'm we're always like, we don't know what's going to happen until that time. You could bite on something hard one day and it just cracks and breaks off, right? But what if I could give you more information around you know, one patient can wait three months, the other could wait a year, or one needs to do it right now, right? Like, and then the patient's like, holy, this is cool, right? And so I know that's happening a lot in the genomics and therapeutics world and on the medical side too. So pretty cool stuff. Absolutely no. Tim 43:21 I think it's great. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Cause to Smile. So how can people get involved in Cause to Smile? Amreesh 43:28 Our organization on the charitable side, we have some amazing individuals who volunteer on our board there that we're constantly working to do good beyond the walls of our clinics, and really about empowering dental community, larger community, patients, business, everybody, to come together, to be empowered, educated around what's happening around other grassroots organizations that we can give back to, right? And so you can visit causesmile.com. I'd say, hey, where could we have people involved today is we're actually looking for great people who are excited about giving, who want to be a part of our board. That's where we are today, because we're at a stage right now in our nonprofit that we want to continue to drive sustainability and impact long-term, and we need great people to be a part of that. So that's my one ask is, hey, if that excites you and you're interested, you know, visit causetosmile.com, reach out to me directly. Where would love people that are inspired by some way to get involved and give back to the the local Calgary community. Tim 44:27 Love it. And if people want to get in touch with you. Amreesh 44:31 Yes, absolutely. I can share my you know, LinkedIn, Instagram, email, everything you'll have all that. Please reach out to me directly. Love, always open to a conversation any way I can support, help in in any way. Tim 44:46 Amreesh, thank you so much for joining us. We'll have all of those links in the show notes. We've been all over the board, but I love it, and so thank you so much. This podcast has really been a reflection of just how rich you are as a person, and how vibrant talking to you is and knowing you, and it's it's really great to see. So, thank you very much. Amreesh 45:10 Thank you to Tim. I really appreciate you thinking of me in that way, and humbled by you know that, and I hope that this gives something useful to at least one of your listeners out there. So really appreciate this opportunity too. So thank you so much, Tim. Tim 45:83 Right on. Thank you so much. All right. Well, inspire, influence, educate. Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word, too, by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading. Comments are closed.
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