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Episode Summary: Tim Sweet chats with Harold Horsefall, an Indigenous issues strategist from the Pasqua First Nation, about his inspiring path from firefighter to cultural leader. Harold shares his journey rooted deeply in traditional values and leadership principles. Harold highlights the importance of preserving language, place names, and cultural landmarks and how they shape the understanding of the land. Tune in to learn more about Harold’s inspiring story, his current projects, and his vision for the future of Indigenous relations.
Episode Notes
Tim Sweet chats with Harold Horsefall, an Indigenous issues strategist from the Pasqua First Nation, about his inspiring path from firefighter to cultural leader. Harold shares his journey rooted deeply in traditional values and leadership principles. Harold highlights the importance of preserving language, place names, and cultural landmarks and how they shape the understanding of the land. He also opens up about the impact of his family's residential school history, which fuels his dedication to truth, reconciliation, and advancing Indigenous relations through meaningful projects like managing a memorial for residential schools. Harold offers insights into the progress and challenges in Indigenous relations, noting increased federal investments since 2015 and advocating for greater support in areas like education. He emphasizes continuous self-improvement and aligning work with personal values, drawing parallels between traditional practices like the sweat lodge ceremony and the process of reconciliation. Harold reflects on the balance of material success and personal fulfillment, encouraging listeners to pursue work that contributes to growth and happiness. Tune in to learn more about Harold’s inspiring story, his current projects, and his vision for the future of Indigenous relations. About Harold Horsefall Harold Horsefall is an experienced Indigenous Relations Strategist who is focused on creating meaningful relationships between Municipal Government, the Treaty 7 Nations, the Metis Nation of Alberta Region 3, Inuit, and urban Indigenous Calgarians. Harold has a demonstrated track record of attaining results and is skilled in advancing Truth & Reconciliation to build mutually beneficial outcomes. He is a strategic thinker who aims to co-create with Indigenous Stakeholders. Harold is a well-rounded professional and has a Master of Global Management (International Business) from Royal Roads University. Resources discussed in this episode:
Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: Contact Harold Horsefall: Transcript Harold 00:01 There was a high school in Calgary. It was great. And I'm very thankful I got to go there. It's called the Plains Indian Cultural Survival School. And so in there, like, I got exposed to a lot of traditional values that I otherwise wouldn't have. And so even like pow wow singing, like I did, pow wow singing 10, 20, and 30. And so there's some traditional values that I was focused on. So like to be a leader, you had to be a person who risked your life for your people, for the people, and you did so selflessly. That was the big draw. To be a firefighter, to be able to say that I did that, and I did for seven years. And seven is, of course, if you didn't know, it's a very significant number to Indigenous people. Tim 00:39 I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim sweet. Welcome to Episode 48 of the sweet on leadership podcast. Tim 01:10 Welcome to Sweet on Leadership. Thanks again for joining us. Today we have the privilege of speaking to Harold Horsefall. You are an Indigenous Issues Strategist. You are a person that I met when I was helping a team with a team building day and a strategy day, and you had me thinking for days after that with your presentation, which I really am grateful for. And luckily enough, one of the people there was was willing to put us in touch. And so here you are today, and I'm really excited for you to be on the show help our audience have a brand new perspective on a number of things, and I think it's going to be fantastic. So Harold Horsefall, thanks for joining me. Harold 01:55 Oh, thank you for having me. The honor is, the honor's mine. The Privilege is mine. Tim 01:58 I really appreciate it. So as we get going, here, you and I've had some conversations leading up to this point, and I'd like you to tell us, how do you see yourself? How would you describe Harold the person? Harold 02:11 Sure, no problem. I guess to start, though, first I'll introduce myself and a name. My name is Harold Horsefall. I'm originally from the Pasqua First Nation, so it's on Treaty 4, just northeast Regina, the Qu'Appelle River Valley. So you know, if you jump in the Bow River, we're in Calgary here, you jump in the Bow River on my on a paddle board, I could get there eventually, but I'm born and raised in Calgary, Alberta here. So I just wanted to say that, and just say hello to any Indigenous listeners out there. Oki, Tân'si, Aaniin, and Dzīnísī Gújā. Harold 02:41 Oh, thank you so much. Harold 02:42 And Âba wathtech, sorry, Âba wathtech. I forgot that one. Tim 02:46 Great. So people are aware, what were those languages you were speaking in? What was your? Harold 02:49 Aaniin is Ojibwe, or so I'm Cree and Saulteaux, so the Pasqua First Nation is Cree and Saulteaux. Saulteaux is like plains Ojibwe, if you will. And then, Oki, is Blackfoot. Dzīnísī Gújā is Tsuut'ina, Âba wathtech is Stoney Nakoda, and Tân'si, or Tân'si is Cree. But also the Michif, their language, the Métis language, it tends to be, on average, that the verbs are Cree, sometimes Ojibwe, and then the nouns are French. Tim 03:20 That is a great way for us to actually take a moment and although we didn't talk about this, but I mean, acknowledge that we are on this land as we record this today. I live just a hop, skip and a jump from the Tsuut'ina right there, like over a street I'm on. What is their land right now. I'm really thankful that we can just all be here and live in harmony together, and I think that it's great that it's such a vibrant part of our community here in Calgary. I remember on that day, when I came home, I was talking to my wife about how you were talking about the Elbow River, and that it was this confluence, and that everyone in North America knew that location, this this elbow, this trading area, was important. I had never appreciated you said you could get in a paddle board and end up where you needed to go, that that was the origin of that, that that word had so much meaning, that it was a that it was a fixed place in the mind of so many people. And that was one of the things that blew my mind that day. As we walked outside, we we looked around so. Harold 04:28 Perfect. Well, I have another one for you if you want. Tim 04:29 Please shoot. Harold 04:30 Okay, so everybody, well, for most Calgarians, go out to the mountains occasionally, or maybe some more than others, and they go past Mount Yamnuska. Yamnuska is so this is a little bit like, how did Indigenous people really know the land really good? And if you read any of the history, you know that was typically because that wasn't always, there was a lot of conflict. The Indigenous people in a certain area always knew their land better than than whoever was coming in. But how? There was no. Google, and there weren't any maps. A lot of it was, was is buried in the language, place names, especially so Yamnuska would be one of those. And my boss used to be Dr. Terry Poucette. She's a she's now a professor at the University of Calgary, and I think she was, she also a professor at University of Victoria. But anyway, she she, she was sharing with us that Yamnuska, if you say that to a Stoney person, that means messy hair. So that would be mount messy hair, which is a mistranslation, because then she said the correct way to say it is "e-yam-nuthka". So that's mount Îyâmnathka, and that means flat faced mountain. So then in the Indigenous languages, like with the confluence in Blackfoot, they say, Moh-kins-tsis. In Stoney they say, Wincheesh-pah. In Tsuut'ina they say, Kootsisáw, the Michif or the Metis called it Otos-kwunee. And they all mean elbow, the confluence of those rivers, yeah. And that would be and so there's all that language, all that variety, and the languages are very different, but they would tap their elbow because, yeah, the way that people would trade there was a sign language, and that sign language tended to be more uniform amongst the various speakers of different languages. Tim 06:15 Was there a sign for Yamnuska? Harold 06:17 I don't know that one. I'd have to ask Terry. Tim 06:20 I should have a flatter face, but, you know, it's probably something. I'll put a I'll put a link for our listeners that are joining us internationally. I'll put a link to a couple of Wiki pages or something so they can actually see these areas and appreciate them later when we go out. I'll tell you a story about how I got trapped in behind Yamnuska, and I had to avoid a bear, and ended up there's a slough back there. And I crossed over, crossed over a creek, which then filled with water, and I had to hike all the way down to the highway, and I came out along Highway, what is it, 1-A, and there's the there's the lodge there, and then hitchhike back to my car, but it's long story so much younger days great. So if we were to think about, well, actually, this is a great opportunity for us to bring up a little tradition here, which is we have a question come from a previous guest. So, your question comes from Melanie Potro in London, who is a professional business and political stylist for women, and very concerned about women's place in leadership. So I'll go ahead and let her ask you a question. Melanie Potro 07:32 What was the trigger for that person, that made him or her go into that path? Harold 07:41 I used to work in oil and gas, and I worked in accounting, and I was going to get an accounting designation. But always in my in my heart, I really wanted to be a fireman, actually, actually, I wanted to be a police officer, but my father-in-law talked me out of he said, being a firefighter is better. And so, so eventually, it’s the path I went on. And then, so, while I was a firefighter, a friend of mine was, he was finishing his master's at the University of Calgary, and I was a fireman. So, then I took that career path. One of the benefits definitely was the work-life balance. And it was more like a life-work balance. I had a lot more free time, right? And I used to think, you know, you get you get time, or you get money. So I thought, You know what I want time because, like, that's you can't always just get that. So that was one of the main reasons why I chose being a fireman. At any rate, my friend was working on his master's degree and a side job. He worked hosting an Indigenous relations course that the University of Calgary still offers. It's called the Indigenous relations leadership course. He was leaving the job because he was finishing his program, he asked me if I wanted to do it. So I was like, sure, I'd love to. So I was a fireman. And then I was, I was hosting the Indigenous relations course at the University of Calgary. And then so it was great, because I would sit in on this course for four days. It was offered four days, three, four times a year, and I was sitting on this course. And so it was these professors would come in, and some of them were professors that I had when I did my undergraduate degree at the UofC. And then so they would come in, I started really picking up all the material, and I could, I could really go in depth with this. I was like, hey, you know what? I want to work in this field. And so then I got my own master's degree, global management from Royal Roads University. And then I started to hit the streets. I was like, Okay, I'm going to consult in this area. And I ended up meeting somebody at the City of Calgary, and they said, Well, I can't hire you because you're already an employee, because I was a firefighter. And then so then I was seconded into the, into my into that role that I have in my day job. Tim 09:38 And that, of course, has led you to where you are today, and I really liked how you described how you see your position and how you see your own profession. So could you give us a little bit of that? Harold 09:48 Sure, yeah, I guess I'll start though, is that my day job or the profession in which I'm in is more a deeper expression of myself. Because my mother went to the Lebret Indian residential school, and then so, as a result, we had in my family, my grandparents, there were very significant cultural, prominent people in our community. You know, they were healers, and all that information was lost. So they, like my mom was that the 12th youngest, and so she by the time she went through the residential school system, they just, I don't know the whole story. I didn't get to meet my grandparents. They passed away before I was born, but I just assumed that, you know, they learned that it was just much easier on the child if they didn't teach them as much, or really anything, especially in terms of the Indigenous language, my mom can hear it, and, like, if she hears it, she understands it, but she doesn't speak. So, a lot of those values kind of were, like, they kind of just went poof, right, which is a whole nother long story. And on my own time, I have a grant going forward. I'm hoping, crossing my fingers, I get it, and I'm going to dive deep on that story. Tim 11:10 Can I just ask, when you say that they thought it would be kinder on the child, does that mean that the lessons and the language and everything, if they had passed it along, could have been a liability or could have been a risk for that, for that child. Harold 11:23 Yea, 100%. Tim 11:28 Because the more they related to that, the more in danger they were. Harold 11:31 Yeah, and literally, they would get beatings and worse, the beatings would be the easy part. Tim 11:38 So, to protect the protect the child, you have to protect them from their history or from their legacy. Harold 11:45 Yeah, because the goal of those schools was to eliminate the Indian in the child. Sometimes, yeah, and we won't go too dark, but sometimes it went further than that. Tim 11:54 So well, it is a history that is really painful and shameful, and it's something that everybody, I would say, around the world, like so many other atrocities that that human beings have managed to inflict on one another, they need to be appreciated, and they need to be brought into the light, right? And so people can see how we've evolved and why. It's not all pretty, that is for sure. But to sum that up. You had said that you consider yourself a practitioner, and I really, really love that term. So, could you just introduce us to that? Harold 12:27 Sure, yeah, as a practitioner of truth and reconciliation, you know what I do is to advance truth and reconciliation. So, one of the projects that I'm currently managing is a memorial for Indian residential school to create an environment of a reconciliatory environment between Indigenous and non Indigenous people. And part of it is getting this kind of information out there. That is a huge part of it, actually. Another part is to actually give a physical place that people can go for this kind of information. Tim 12:57 And, and that will be at that at that confluence. Harold 12:57 At the Elbow, yes. At the confluence, that’s correct. Tim 13:00 And, and so, you know, in a sense, that's really, I mean, I'm just thinking about this now, I kind of getting goosebumps a little bit. But it's like, if you think about trading the most important things, then trading in that story and that knowledge and that ability, what a place to do it right? Because people who come from around the world to actually trade in that knowledge, and… Harold 13:27 That's what I'm hoping. Tim 13:30 Oh, man, that didn't hit me until sort of just now. So that's a whole different level. I love the word practitioner, because when we think about leaders and people who are really, they're really moving thought forward, and they're helping people embrace things, and helping people become, you know, their own, powerful individuals, people that that can express themselves in the world. You know, a practitioner, in my mind, is somebody that you don't, that doesn't just talk like they do. They, you're seeing them practice whatever they are. They're espousing. It's so much more powerful than somebody who is simply theoretical. I think that's such a great word, and I think that's where we're going to be heading today. So, before we get too much into that. I also want to just ask you this, if we were to see Harold Horsefall on any given day, what are we going to see? What is, what is? What is Harold Horsefall, the person, engage in, day in, day out? Harold 14:33 Day in, day out. I guess, like I've started volunteering in an effort to really get out there. So, I volunteer for the University of Calgary Alumni Board. So, so I've been, you know, making my best to go to as many networking functions as possible, just to really get in there with people. I'm part of a meditation group, and I think that that's really helpful. And I have four children, so that's definitely above average, more than the average Canadian. So, yeah, I'm but my youngest is fourteen now. Tim 15:04 You're a practitioner of sorts there. Harold 15:08 Oh, yeah, almost accomplished. I'm almost like, on the verge of being an empty nest, empty nester. But my youngest is 14, so maybe three, four more years, and then he’ll go to university then, and then, that's a whole nother, you know, it seems it's so expensive for the kids out there, right? Because I have a daughter who's at the UofC now, and she's still at home with us. Yeah, it's just so expensive out there. Tim 15:29 It is, yeah, it's, it's something that just learning how to, how to exist in this world is such a wake up. My kids are going through the same thing right now. Harold 15:39 So, then I'm like, the comma rents, you know, the pa-rents, free rent. Tim 15:44 Yeah, there you go. Pa-rent. When we think about you meditating, and you and I talked about, you know, really making sure that we take time to develop ourselves and whatnot. How do you see people that are out in the workforce, when you see them managing their own lives and going through things and, you know, besides just your children, but people that you work with in, day in, day out, the community members we've got around us. What do, how do you see their relationship with time? Again, you talked about trading time for money that you would take time over that. What do you see out there in the in the world? Harold 16:27 Oh, geez, a lot of people, you know, and I'm, I live in a material world, and you know, I prefer to have, you know, good, solid look good. Good, solid goods. And, you know, even clothing that makes me look good, right? But that said, like, definitely, I see, I see many people just chasing, like, this carrot, and you know, that's fine. It's good an all. But why? What does it do for you? Because I even got to speak with some, through the alumni, not through the Alumni Board, this is before I was on the Alumni Board, but through Career Services, because that university and the Indigenous relations course was through Career Services. And so I did speak to some alumni, some graduates, some new graduates, and as part of a panel, and I was like, Well, you know, like, you should really focus too on the things that make you happy, because even if you make a whole bunch of money, like, eventually the, I hope this doesn't get dark for people, but it's like 100% the one thing that we are sure of is that we will pay taxes and we will die. And so, it's like, so say you make, like, a billion dollars. You can't take it with you, not that I know of, right? So, so it's like, really, like, for your own self, like, and this was my, my message to new grads, right? And I don't know how it was received, but I felt that maybe it wasn't received as popular as some of the other people, because one person was, like a new they had a position with the Royal Bank of Canada, and it was like a director or something. And so that was the person, oooh we gotta like, you know, go around that person, and I'm just like, well, you know, you got to really focus on your life and what makes you happy as well. Doing well materially is good, but also making sure, hitting that it's like a Venn diagram, hitting that intersection between what's personally satisfying, I think, is also important. Tim 18:15 I think that's a very interesting reaction to notice. I've seen the same with young leaders and even some accomplished leaders, that when you offer them a perspective that causes them any sort of doubt, when they're in a blind pursuit of something, you know, when they're heading towards something and they've either omitted facts or they've biased themselves towards things to overcome questions or fears or whatever they're doing, so that they can charge ahead in a certain area. And if one of those things is, you know, hustle culture, so it's like, no, you got to work hard, and you work hard young so that you can be rich later and get what you want or whatever. Anything that questions that, it's like it erodes the bedrock of what they or would actually say, erodes the house of cards that they're building themselves up upon. And it can get really scary for people that they will reject that thought outright, like, let's just not go there, because playing in that area is just it carries a lot more risk than we might realize for that person, because they're, they're built up on that. That's, you know, and I think it's, it's an, also an interesting thing, that when you meet people down the road in their careers, when they realize that they've built their approach on really shaky ground, and it'll last for a while, until the universe demands the truth. And then guess what? They're kicking in the water. They're thrashing around pretty good. So the earlier that we can get to truth, the earlier that we can get to facing these hard facts and really questioning what our assumptions, I think is a is a is an important point. I hope I took that in the right direction there. Harold 20:07 Oh yeah, yeah, for sure, yes. Great conversation. Tim 20:09 So when you think about the reaction of people to wanting to be around the person that emulates what they want to be, they want to be around that bank executive or whatnot. Tell me a little bit about that. What does that mean to a person besides, you know, potentially being an expression of we can see where their priorities are. But what's the hazard that comes out of that? Harold 20:34 Oh, geez, I'm not sure. I've never really thought about that from somebody else's perspective, because, like, I wrestled with that, whereas, like, wanting to pursue a career that's gonna make me a lot of money and whatnot and high powered career, but for me, like, internally, I just couldn't there was this, like, a it was, like, it was a force field or something that I just couldn't get past. And because, like, for me, it was just, I really needed to, personally be able to be 100% invested in what I did. For example, it’s the real old school traditional value on the plains. The best way to say that, I say I'm a Plains Indian. There was a high school in Calgary. It was great, and I'm very thankful I got to go there. It's called the Plains Indian Cultural Survival School picks and so in there, like, I got exposed to a lot of traditional values that I otherwise wouldn't have. And so even, like, pow wow singing, like I did, pow wow singing 10, 20, and 30. So, you know, like, it was great. And so there was some traditional values that I was focused on. So like, Crowfoot. Hugh Dempsey wrote a book on Crowfoot. And so it was, it was done really good and huge. Dempsey is a local southern Alberta historian, or was before he passed to be a leader for me as a plains from the plains culture, where we had teepees and we buffalo hunted, so that, like some people say, they who are Indigenous people, and that's what they'll think of teepees and buffalo culture, but that's the plains culture. Whereas in like out east, they lived in houses, and they were farmers. And same with out west. They were they lived in houses, long houses, and they also farmed and they fished and they traded. But for me, that's, that's what it was. And to be a leader. You had to be a person who risked your life for your people, for the people, and you did so selflessly. That was the big draw. To be a firefighter, to be able to say that I did that, and I did for seven years. And seven is, of course, if you didn't know, it's a very significant number to Indigenous people. There are seven brothers in the sky, so the Big Dipper stars. And other than that, that's some, actually part of the grant that I've got forward and crossing my fingers that I'm going to explore many of those issues. But four is also another one. And I do know more reason about why four is significant. There are four seasons. There are numbers that we tend to see in nature. So then there are four seasons. And then, accordingly, you could even break up your day to be like the four seasons. You wake up in the morning, and then you have your afternoon, and then your late afternoon into the evening, and it's almost like a mini cycle. So you're in a mini cycle on a bigger cycle inside of a bigger cycle. So four seems to be the number that is most associated with cycles. Tim 23:06 There's so much there that we could unpack, but it immediately makes my mind go to my friend Julie Friedman Smith, who's a parent and coach here in town, and she's part of our association here, helping our clients out. And she said something that was very similar at one point to me. And she said, you know, people will often, they'll say whether or not their day was a success. And she said, it's much better if you if you can develop the language where, you know, well, the morning wasn't a success, or this last hour wasn't a success, but the next one can be. And you chunk things down into that sort of seasonal thinking, where it allows us to be a little more gentle on ourselves, and refocus and rebase and kind of have these cycles within our life. But as you were speaking there, I was thinking back to you saying that you're a practitioner of truth and reconciliation. Now, truth and reconciliation in Canada has a very specific meaning, which I think is important, but more broadly, the pursuit of truth. What's the truth of who we are and where we're sitting, and then reconciling with that? And I often think of that like doing the math right, like getting to the facts doing the math, and say, We have to reconcile ourselves with the facts of what just happened, and that takes some work right to get through it. And so the importance of that as a program can't be understated. The importance of that as an approach to life is also something that's fairly important, is getting down to that, where am I actually, and how do I feel about that, actually? And what does it mean for me, actually? Where are we actually? What's the truth of that? So if I can have you sort of expand on that a little bit. Could you tell me where you think we are in that journey? Harold 24:57 So I guess I would say first that in. General, the atmosphere in Canada is is quite good, in the sense that if you use the idea of like Pareto improving, it's been a while since I since I've done economics. Tim 25:10 80-20 rule. Harold 25:11 Yeah, exactly. But just if you take like each day, or even each hour, and like and to the person that you mentioned. So if you took yesterday or even 20 years ago. And if you looked at the status quo of what it meant to be Indigenous in Canada, and then you look at it today, there's improvements. And so some of those improvements are definitely like, so I went to the University of Calgary, and if we look back into the 1980s if you go to the, it's called the Writing on Symbols Lodge now, it used to be called the Native Student Center when I went there, so I'm dating myself, but there's a graduate list on the wall. And in the 80s, there was like one, and then the next year, like 1985 or something, and then the next year there'd be like two or three, and then it's kind of went up, like a logarithmic scale. And then it's like, okay, that's awesome. So whatever it is that the environment is definitely there. And so even then, you know, a lot more people are respectful. And even just that, the way that we opened on this podcast, I think that was, that was excellent, and I'm finding a lot more people are much more open. It's still a long journey. And so my approach as a practitioner is always like so when I was young, I managed to reclaim a good chunk of my culture, and I did that personally while I was a teenager, so, you know, and I still did live a teenage life, but I also did do a life where I went to a lot of ceremonies, especially sweat lodges. They were very important. I was very blessed and fortunate. And you know, I would get myself to these sweats when I was, like 16. And a sweat lodge, for those who don't know, is, is, it's like a cleanliness ceremony, it's a spa and it's a sauna, but then it's dark, and we sing songs, and you do a lot of prayer or focusing like, I guess you could find it in like Bhuddist culture, they call that single point focus. So you do a lot of focus on that thing that that you are concentrating upon to live a good life, was the one that was general for me. But the thing with a sweat lodge is that when you go in and it symbolizes rebirth, in a sense, but when you go in say that you're taking in a whole bunch of negative kind of crap that kind of lingers in you through this process, you sweat it out. And the idea is that all of your impurities go with that sweat, and it cleans you out both like physically and spiritually, in addition to other areas. So it's more holistic in that sense. And so you have to sit in that initial if, say, you go in and you have a lot of negative energy and you're sitting in there, it's painful in the sense that it hurts, it's uncomfortable, and it's in the dark and it's somewhat crowded, so a lot of fears are already triggered for many people. So then you just have to learn to sit still through all of that. It's uncomfortable. You sit through it, and then eventually, when you come out, then I would say that reconcile. So that's like, kind of my model for truth and reconciliation. It's like sitting in a sweat. It's uncomfortable, but you sit there and you do it. Sometimes you'd even come out and you know, you'd be pretty red, bright red, almost like a little bird sometimes, but you know, and that's the thing, is, like, if it gets hot, you can't once the door is closed, you have to wait until the door is open, or you could go run out screaming. But it's generally, it's not advised and it's frowned upon. So you have to sit still. And that's the thing, when it gets really hot, if you like, start thrashing around and panicking, it just escalates on the top of itself, and you end up in a mess, right? So you have to really sit still, and you have to sit quiet, and you can't move, especially when it's really hot. That's one of the things I learned, and actually came in really handy, is when I was a firefighter working in really hot environments, because in, like, physically hot, because you don't move too fast. You have to stay composed, and you have to actually move very slow, and you have to be very purposeful with each movement. Tim 28:47 So quite literally, you're sitting there having to face all of those things that are are weighing on you, moving you forward or holding you back. You have to take some deep, honest reflection and emerge with some increased amount of fluency about who you are and where you're going. Harold 29:09 But that's the magic, because, like, you surrender to it, and then you when you do get out, you definitely are better than when you went in. And if you keep doing that repeatedly over time, then that's when you see the benefits. Tim 29:22 I think that's cool too, because you haven't said anything really, although you're sweating it out. It's not like these things, these things remain. They're part of you, in a sense, right? But your relationship with them is different, and you can process it differently. You can handle it differently. When I go back to that thinking of those young people at the university that are new in their career and their and their orienting around about wealth and who they want to be. And we also talked about openness being so key to this, and then the societal openness may be open at one point, but then be getting more closed in other ways. Often, you know, we think of things in a static place that it's either open or it's closed, we're open or we're closed. The society around us is getting more open or more closed, but it's like this pendulum that kind of swings and seeing things in that cycle pattern, as you said before, where we have to be observant about that and whatnot. Do you think that it's getting better right now, or is it getting worse? Or are we on a pendulum, or is it, you know, where are we at this? Harold 30:31 It's definitely getting better. A colleague of mine did send me email that in terms of finances, and it says, since 2015 This is taken from the Fraser Institute.org, and it says Since 2015 the federal government has significantly increased spending on Indigenous peoples from roughly 11 billion to more than 32 billion. You know, that sounds like that could sound like taxpayer money, but I don't. I would be more curious to dive into that. That's a whole process unto itself. But there is a large trust fund that is held on behalf of Indigenous people, and that's where many Indigenous things, like in education, which was negotiated during the treaties. In essence, I've done Indigenous relations courses for various organizations, corporate organizations. And one item that I like to always point out to, and I don't have it handy on a presentation, but if you look at annual GDP of Canada, and then you can, you can even look at areas like from natural resources, and you look at that value on an annual basis, and then you compare it to what the treaty rights are. So I get $5 a year, and I get education, maybe, maybe I get education. That in itself, is a whole episode. Probably do really investigating that, but it is pennies to billions of dollars. So then you think like, that's really where it is. So a lot of those funds, though, do come from a National Indian Trust account. And I encourage you to google it. I could probably even just throw in a link to a short video. Tim 32:10 We'll put that link in the show notes for you. Harold 32:11 Sure. Yeah, and it's put together by the Yellow Head Institute, and it's a really good video to watch. And it's just a short video, two and a half minutes, I think maybe two and a half to it's under five minutes. Tim 32:18 Yeah, I think that's that's a really important thing too, for people to for Canadians to appreciate. Because there's a lot of myth and a lot of, I would say, bias and hearsay that goes into exactly proportionally. How do we support our native communities? How do we make good on the on the Treaty and the agreements that were promised? And it's pretty shocking when you see, you know what it actually means on an annualized basis. And then, oh, on the flip side, I'm optimistic with what you've said in terms of this exponential growth in education and whatnot. Because as I follow Indigenous creators, and I've got a few, as I was telling you before, people that I'm really, I'm really enjoying, kind of having in my life, and following their journeys, and, you know, appropriately consuming their content. There's a positivity that's out there, and there is an optimism that's out there, and there is a and there's an energy that's out there, which I think is just fantastic. And so although the totals may not be appropriate, and there's definitely room to move there. What people are doing with the time and the opportunities they've got is so inspiring. So that, to me, means that there's a new energy, there's a new confidence, there's a new identity that's coming out, and I think it's a steam roller. I think it's unstoppable. You know, you think of that, that Jim Collins example of the flywheel, if you've ever heard this, where you have this massive flywheel, and it's the size of a city, and one person could go up against it, and they could smack it one way or the other, and the thing wouldn't even move. It would be like a monolith that wouldn't even move. And often we have communities that are all smack it in different directions, and so the thing couldn't start to move even if it wanted to. But if we get enough people slapping that thing in the right direction, it starts to shudder, and then it starts to spin, and then it spins faster and faster, and pretty soon, that thing, which we thought was immovable, is under its own energy. And it's, you know, it's unstoppable, so that any one unreasonable and logical dissenting voice can't, can't stop it. So that's, that's what, what I hope for, is that unstoppable momentum. Harold 34:39 Sure, I definitely I would get on board with that. Tim 34:43 We'll be smacking that flywheel. Yes. Cool. So as we sort of head towards the end, what would you like us to focus on? Was there somewhere we didn't get that you would like us to get? Harold 34:56 Really like for me, these are like questions in my own. Mind that I just can't something in me always brings it back to the service. Hey, I need to focus on this and so, like, continuous improvement would be one of those things in that focusing myself, like, what do I want from my careers? And that was the thing I do have a question for the next guest. Tim 35:17 I love that you're unprompted, go for it. Harold 35:22 What do you get from your career? And how does your work fill your bucket? Because those are things that I always ask myself. And so what am I getting from this? What am I doing for this? How does this work for me? Yes, I get to pay the bills. Maybe I get to get to I have a thing for boots. My wife will tell you, I buy too many boots. She's probably right. So like, in addition to me getting a new pair of boots, but what does it do for me personally, like, as a person? How's it, uh, advanced my own journey, my own destination? People, quote, like, Crazy Horse. If they don't know who Crazy Horse was, from the American point of view, they say, well, he's like, hoka hey, it's a good day to die. Like, he's gonna charge out there on the battlefield and but that's not what it was. That's only like half of the quote, because… Tim 36:03 I think [who?] from Star Trek, said that. But what did Crazy Horse actually say? Harold 36:10 He said, hoka hey, today is a good day to die, because all is well with the world. And the Stoney Nakoda, because they're, they're, they're Nakoda Sioux, they say Âba wathtech , and that's their greeting, and it means hello, today is a good day. I think it's implied all is well with the world. So what that means is, like for you inside, is everything well, in the sense that, if you were to die, would you feel that there are unresolved issues? And so really, then your attention, for me, that exercise brings me to like, okay, what are those unresolved issues and I gotta address those. Sometimes they're scary, sometimes they're hard, but it's just like sitting in that sweat, right? And so, so for me, that's what I would leave. And the question I'd post to the next guest. Tim 36:53 How is what you're doing? How is it filling your bucket that is something that I can relate to, I'm really passionate about. You know, often when I'm working with executives, etc, you know, one of the things when we're we're looking at career, when we're looking at where they are, is to have them focus on, from a career perspective, what is the best day of the last year you're ever going to work look like? And are you heading towards that as a reality? And then more generally, are you in balance in your life? Right? Like, are you are do you feel like you're where you belong? And do you feel like that you've got this beautiful flow going on that you have enough sense of control or stability and you still have the right types of excitement and anxiety and those things, I feel like we've just scratched the surface here, Harold. So one thing I want us to do is is stay up to date on your grant and your research project, and want to make sure that when that gets rolling, you come back and we and we talk about that. Harold 37:59 Perfect. Sounds great. Tim 38:00 Yeah, I think that would be great. And in the meantime, if people wanted to reach out to you, if they wanted to, if they wanted to experience what I experienced, or if they were interested in the confluence, where can they find they you? Harold 38:14 They can go to the confluences the website, and I think it's www.theconfluence.ca or something, or just Google “the confluence Calgary”. Tim 38:23 Sure, we'll put that link up in the show notes. Harold 38:25 Yeah,if you want to get in touch with me, please reach out on LinkedIn: Harold Horsefall. Tim 38:29 right on, lots of exciting things coming up for you. Thank you very much for dropping the question for our next guest. Harold Horsfall, it was just an absolute treat to have you on. Harold 38:39 Thank you, Tim. Tim 38:29 I can't wait till we can meet at that conference together. I'm really itching to get there. Harold 38:45 Sounds great. Tim 38:46 Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading. Comments are closed.
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