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TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
Episode Summary: In this episode, Time Sweet and leadership coach Massimo Backus discuss the journey of leadership through the lens of self-discovery, curiosity, and self-compassion. Massimo shares his personal transformation from an objectively bad manager to a transformative leader, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and working within the natural laws of leadership. The episode concludes with a call to action for leaders to practice self-compassion and kindness towards themselves, with Massimo encouraging listeners to reach out for book collaborations.
Episode Notes
In this episode, Time Sweet and leadership coach Massimo Backus discuss the journey of leadership through the lens of self-discovery, curiosity, and self-compassion. Massimo shares his personal transformation from an objectively bad manager to a transformative leader, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and working within the natural laws of leadership. The conversation delves into the pervasive nature of self-criticism and its impact on mental health, advocating for reframing self-criticism as a protective mechanism. Trusting oneself emerges as a foundational element of leadership, often overlooked in discussions about trust. Massimo shares his journey of overcoming defensiveness and developing self-trust, touching on challenges like imposter syndrome and the struggle with self-compassion. Tim and Massimo explore the concept of authenticity, emphasizing that self-trust allows for honesty and transparency, leading to more genuine connections. The episode concludes with a call to action for leaders to practice self-compassion and kindness towards themselves, with Massimo encouraging listeners to reach out for book collaborations. About Massimo Backus Massimo Backus is on a mission to help one million people believe they are worthy and enough. Like many ambitious leaders, Massimo faced early struggles with impostor syndrome and a relentless inner critic. Dyslexia was one of the main drivers for his insecurities and later, his perfectionism. The practice of self-compassion helped him see that what was considered a disability was actually cognitive diversity. Facilitator, speaker, and executive leadership coach Massimo Backus provides no-BS one-on-one coaching with open-minded and committed senior leaders, and he runs transformative programs with organizations that are serious about change. His fifteen-plus years of experience in talent development and leadership coaching have given him a front-row seat to observe company cultures in the US, UK, and Canada, while working with 3,000+ emerging and seasoned leaders in mid-size and Fortune 500 companies, including Cisco, Accenture, Slalom, Salesforce, Nintendo, Amazon and Fox Entertainment. Resources discussed in this episode: Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: Contact Massimo Backus | Leadership Coaching & High-Performance Team Development: Transcript Massimo 00:01 Leadership is about leading others in the human experience, in the human condition, and that isn't something to be solved. It's not a problem that we can find the single-threaded answer for. It doesn't exist. And so it will always be more art than science. It's a form of nature more than it is anything else. Tim 00:21 I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to the Sweet on Leadership podcast episode 39. Tim 00:50 Hey everybody, welcome. Thanks again for joining us. Today, I've got a very special guest. He is an executive coach. He handles some very deep stuff, and through his powers of self-compassion and other things that he brings to his clients, he's able to change lives. He helps people become their best selves. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation, if what we've been talking about up to this point is any indication, I think we're going to, as we said before, Mas, we're going to be playing jazz. Please welcome Massimo Backus. Massimo 01:26 Thank you so much for having me, and I am looking forward to playing some jazz. Tim 01:30 Right on. Mas, why don't you tell us a little more about yourself, let people know who they're listening to today. Massimo 01:38 Yeah, I've spent my career in leadership development and executive coaching. I think most notably, I am a reformed, objectively bad manager and bad leader. I recognize the hypocrisy in that, it is not beyond me, and at this point, I've worked with over 3000 leaders intimately and closely, one-on-one, and observed their transformation. I fundamentally made an attribution error at some point, and I mistook the transformation of my own clients for my own. And it wasn't until I received some 360 feedback, which I'm sure many people are familiar with, getting feedback from peers and from my direct reports and skip levels and people above me in the organization, that some news came to light that I was not as great of a leader as I thought that I was, and that is what led me on an unexpected path of my own development that has then informed the work that I do with the executives and leaders that I work with today. Tim 02:34 How many years have you been focused on leadership as the science, rather than, you know, having to make some other deliverable. How? How long has that been your sole focus? Massimo 02:47 Probably around 12 years that it's been, and the thing about leadership, first of all, it's a word that is used so often that it loses its meaning entirely. There have been countless books on leadership written to this day, and in 10 years, when you and I chat, there will be another countless number of books around leadership, which indicates one thing to me, is that we're trying to solve the unsolvable because leadership is about leading others in the human experience, in the human condition, and that isn't something to be solved. It's not a problem that we can find the single-threaded answer, for it doesn't exist. And so it will always be more art than science. It's a form of nature more than it is anything else. What does it mean to actually be a leader? Is something that evolves and changes and is as unique as you and I, our as our thumbprint and as our fingerprint. And so recognizing that takes all the pressure off of me to have to be the quote-unquote expert and have all the answers, because frankly, I do not, and with that, I can approach you with a great degree of curiosity. And so I'm deeply curious about leadership. I'm deeply curious about what makes for trust in relationships. I'm curious about what makes for peak performances, individuals and teams. I'm curious about what makes for a long, rich, impactful career. In that curiosity, I have found certain things that seem to be North Stars, or maybe you could kind of consider them to be, like the natural laws of physics. I think there are the natural laws of leadership, but again, they're not to be solved. We work within those conditions. We don't solve gravity. We work with gravity. Tim 04:29 That's well said. It's definitely a mix of science and art and natural order and natural selection in many ways. And I think that there's so many different components, and I share your curiosity. I mean, in my time focused on this, I think one of the, one of the greatest privileges that I have is to be able to focus on the leadership experience, to be focused on, well, what does it mean for one person versus another, and how. Having dealt with 1000s of leaders and teams and these kinds of things share the same sort of scope, the excitement, the curiosity, comes because so many different people have to find their unique leadership groove. They have to find that way that allows them to accomplish that amazing thing that they can't do alone or to shepherd or support or enrich or, you know, really encourage others to go down that path. And so many don't have the, they're too busy doing to to to really experience the joy of it, in a sense, and to find that, to find that voice and find that style that's all their own. But when they do, holy moly, when they do, it is such an amazing thing to see. And even just this past week, you know, just having a leader in their manager report come back and say everything's changed. We happen to land on that, one of those things, that in two weeks, everything's changed. So I'm with you. I'm really glad that I have a chance to hear it from your perspective, because there aren't that many. There's a lot of people that coach, well, let's just say there's some people that dedicate themselves to it in different ways. Put it that way. Anyway, take us back in to your starting point, that moment that you received some feedback. Where were your blind spots? Where was the feedback, where, you know, you thought you were doing better than you were, for you personally. What was, what was a blind spot that you faced? Massimo 06:48 Well, let me just start by the gut-wrenching experience of getting feedback in that in that way. Just, you know, I believe that feedback is a gift, and I believe that we're all better off when we get it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. You know, eating some of our vegetables is not doesn't always taste good, but it's good for us. And the main piece of feedback Tim was that I was defensive. That I was defensive in people questioning my thinking or my ideas, my approach to things, defensive in all areas. And like any rational person, I responded with, what do you mean? I'm defensive. I'm not defensive. You are being defensive. For saying that I'm defensive. I'm not doing anything wrong, right, because I was clearly on the right side of things. What I foolishly learned is that not only was I defensive in all the places that came back in the 360, but I was defensive in all aspects of my life. And once I got curious about it and realized there's some truth to this, not just one person saying many people are saying it. I asked my wife about it, I asked my friends about it, asked other family members about it, and lo and behold, it was showing up in a lot of different areas for me. I also learned that it was one of those behaviours that ran in the family, not to place blame at all, but to go, oh, maybe this is learned behaviour, and if it was well, then I can unlearn it. I can learn a new behaviour. So that was refreshing. Made me realize this wasn't something that couldn't be fixed. This was something that I now had the opportunity to fix. I spent six months on my own thinking I am a leadership development expert. I'm seen as this guru within the organization that I worked in. I have all these skills and knowledge. I should be able to fix this on my own. And six months later, I had a follow-up meeting with my then manager, and I was hoping that the feedback would be we can tell you've worked really hard, and you've made an incredible turnaround. It's not what I heard. What I heard was we can tell you've been trying, but you've made very little progress. That was devastating. And in that moment, I was pretty sure that I was going to be asked to leave the organization. But to my manager's credit, to that organization, they didn't do that. And in fact, they invested in me and my own development, and I ended up going to a retreat called the Hoffman process, which has been around for about 40 years, started by a gentleman named Bob Hoffman. And their slogan is, if you're serious about change, and I would say, for anyone who is serious about changing the way that they view the world, experience the world, and, most importantly, experience themselves, that it's worth checking out. And it was during that week long retreat that I had an epiphany, which is the epiphany that I that I want for all leaders. It's the epiphany that I want for all people, and it's a leadership epiphany, and it is the value, the importance, dare I say, the necessity, to have a practice of self-compassion. And it was at this retreat that, for the first time in my life, I was 36 years old at the time, that I experienced for the first time, what it was like to actually love who I am, to love myself, to accept myself for my shortcomings, my triggers, my biases, my limitations, but also my strengths and my gifts and the qualities that make me me. All of it, that was a what I call a bedrock moment, that that was a moment that has anchored me every day since, and will continue to be an anchor for me. I do not always practice self-compassion. I'm not always kind to myself these days, but I always remember what is possible when I do and that is that I was able to stop being defensive, that I was able to change my way of being. Tim 10:49 I think when you acknowledge or when you let us in, that you're not always practicing self-compassion, as you know the rest of us struggle with. I mean, if it's a meditation practice, you find the ability to silence your mind. You have these moments where everything goes still, and you are really nothing. And then you start thinking about that credit card bill you need to pay, or that the cat needs the litter box changed or something, and you realize you've slipped out. And then you have to strive to get back into that state, meditative state. And you never do it well, but all you can do is you can continue to practice so you get better at it, and that's why they call it a practice, and a practice of self-compassion, realizing and being able, I find in my own personal work, it's not just the realization that we're not or the you know, that we're not terribly self-compassionate, or that we're saying something that's untrue or whatnot, but it's that ability to suddenly hear it, like you can hear the thoughts in your mind saying and it can or at least you can pause and go, well, that wasn't really kind, or that wasn't really true. And you can take a moment with it and then immerse yourself in that practice of recentering, getting back into it, acknowledging what you were thinking, acknowledging what the trigger was, acknowledging what you know, where you need to get back to and and get back into it. And it's a practice. It's building those muscles, it's it's exercising them, and it's very easy. In fact, I would say it's epidemic in our culture that people lose the ability to hear when they're being cruel to themselves between the ears, and it's the easiest thing in the world, and it's the most accepted thing in the world. I think let's understand that it's a human condition to not trust yourself, because you know what. Nobody's let yourself down more than you because nobody knew all those dreams that you had that you didn't make good on. Nobody hears the language you use about yourself and others. So nobody knows how dark you can actually go. Massimo 13:12 That self-critical, self-judgmental voice. It knows us very well because it is us, and it's hard to separate the noise of that from other parts of our psychology because it knows all of our triggers and, fundamentally, self-criticism, judgment, imposter syndrome, all of these things that ail us, that are, that are epidemic, are designed by us psychologically to protect us, to keep us safe. But there's one thing that they have wrong, and that is that as adults like they were formed when we were children, as adults, we don't need to be held safe in that way, that we are actually safer, as you said, when we do trust ourselves, we're safer when we can be kind to ourselves, we're safer when we humble ourselves to ask for help. Tim 14:05 When we deal with the exposure, when we apply the stress and the adversity. Massimo 14:07 Absolutely and accept our limitations instead of trying to hide all these things. And it's a show of strength. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do to face the most vicious and toxic voice in our lives that comes from us, to face that head-on and to not meet it with resentment or this ego death bullshit that people talk about, which I fundamentally think is wrong. It's about a relationship. Ego serves a purpose. There's value to it, but you need to have a healthy relationship with it, and, you know, to kind of make this real as an example, my defensiveness that I had for so many years was protecting me, or so I thought, by making sure that, well, I always have the last word. I need to make sure that I'm the smartest person in the room. I need to. To demonstrate my worth, but it was doing the opposite. Everyone else saw, that I was hiding my own insecurities, except for me. Tim 15:10 One of my favourite bosses, still to this day, he's one of these forever bosses. Because, I mean, I went into consulting practice very, very early, and then when I finished school, I had. A number of years as a regional manager, big, big management position, but then very quickly, went back to consulting. But then was scooped by a couple of companies, and one of them was a company I was happy to stay in and I ended up working for a commercial team to, you know, raise my financial acumen and do all the stuff, and also the best experiences I still absolutely, you know, hold this guy in great esteem. And I remember that I'd be in these, these meetings with the C-suite, or with executives, like fairly high ranking people, and if I had a point to make, I always had a quote, or I had some research, or I attributed it to some author. And he said, you know, you're making all these good points, and it's very, very valuable, but you have to then cite it. And I said, Well, I come from a historical background, so, like, everything is provable in this kind of thing. He said, I don't think that's it says, I don't think you're willing to own that. I think you want to make sure that you can share the load with some other author or whatnot. And man that stung. That was because he had me nail like he had me totally made. And was one of the most valuable things I learned under his mentorship, because it was a few months later that I had to stand up for an idea to one of the top guys, big multinational corporation and I remember I stood on my own two feet. I made my point, and the point was tough to deliver, and it hit hard, but I felt in that moment like I was in a different gear, right? And it was that, in a sense, one of the facets of self, trust and love was to stand on my own two feet and be and like, you know what you're talking about here. Just go ahead. And it was like an arrival. It was like, I belong here. I know what I'm talking about. I don't have to apologize or whatnot. And I was never the same after that. That was one of those leverage moments. Massimo 17:26 Yeah, yeah, one of those bedrock moments that you can always go back to remember what it was like when you truly trusted yourself. And you know, in the organizational context and leadership, you know, landscape, we talk about trust all the time, like leadership. How many books have been written about trust? How often in trust conversations, do we talk about the value of trusting ourselves, or do we ask, How do I know when I trust myself? How do I know when I'm not trusting myself? What do I need in order to be able to trust myself? What's present when I trust myself least? These are questions that are very rarely asked in the broader conversation about trust, it is always about another person or the team, and that's important, absolutely. But I believe, and I found, with the leaders that I've worked with throughout my career, that often when trust is not present on a team, there is trust that is not present for each individual with themselves. Tim 18:37 Oh, 100%. You cannot give away what you don't have. Massimo 18:39 Right. Tim 18:40 Absolutely impossible. So talk, talk about that a little bit actually, and you know what I'm going to I'm going to do something a little bit off the wall here. I was, saving a question. We have a question every episode, and I was going to save yours till the end, but because we are at this point in the conversation, I'm going to go ahead and and voice it. This comes from Peter Root with Wildfire Robotics, and he asked the question for the next guest, which is you, what are some of those pivotal ways that you build trust with your staff? With clients? Perhaps, you know. So I think you're landing on this now. So why don't you, why don't you flesh that out, speaking to Peter for a moment. Massimo 19:28 I love Peter's question. Tim, so thank you for sharing that and the conversation of trust. There's, there's very little that has not, that hasn't already been explored around honesty and transparency, credibility, competence, reliability. But when you think about going into a relationship where you want to build trust, the value of trusting yourself going into that relationship, if I trust myself, I feel grounded. I know my capabilities. I know the limits of my capabilities. I am going to be in a much better place, to be honest, because I am willing to show up in a way that is asking the other person to meet me where I'm at. I'm not trying to be someone that I'm not. I can say, here are the things that I'm good with, and here are the things that I'm not. Lucky for me, I have a huge cadre of other coaches and consultants that I work with clients will come to me and ask me to help them with some body of work that I might not be best suited for, and I know my shortcomings in the areas that I'm not best suited, but that's why I have this community of other talented people to bring them in. So I'm able to approach these conversations honestly and transparently and with confidence that isn't boastful. Now, Tony Robbins talks about confidence as a mindset. It's something that we can, you know, get ourselves into this mindset. And yes, maybe there's, there's some truth to that, but I think that it's actually a way of being. If I'm being honest with myself, then I'm able to be confident because I'm not trying to be something that I'm not. And where we get ourselves into trouble when it comes into relationships and building trust is we make some assumptions around who I need to be in order for this person to trust me, or if we're really, you know, going to the playground as kids, to like me, because so many people actually, they just want to be liked, they want to be included. They want to be picked for kickball, right? But if I trust myself, we could say, hey, like I'm, you can pick me on the kickball team. I'm a good kicker, but I can't catch for anything. They’re either going to pick me or not pick me, but at least I don't have to worry about being somebody that I'm not. And they might say, yeah, come on here. I'll teach you how to catch. Great. I want to be a part of the team, but I'm not trying to hide something that might be a limitation and say, you know, just hope the ball doesn't come to me because if it does, I'll be found out Tim 22:03 That ability to distinguish when we're trying to develop ourselves and develop that confidence, develop that, I like to use the word fluency, of who we are, so we can be right with it. It's really important to differentiate that from the management of an identity, a visible thing that you want other people to see and that you want to you want other people to think, and that often covers up the guilt or the shame or the scarcity or the fear and you know, we, you often see people that are fronting so hard on something because it's the last place that they want people to actually question them or see what's under the surface, and to be able to let that go. Talk about energy management, I mean capacity. Now we, we've, you know, we're a few years past COVID, not past COVID, but anyway, we're coming out the other side in many ways, but organizationally, we have people that are still tapped. They are stretched capacity-wise, mentally, what a source of energy to not have to keep your deflector shields up, to not have to keep the holographic emitters up, to not have to keep the story going and and manage the and not to say that people do this even consciously. You know that it's not like they know they're putting on some sort of a mask, but that because the mask has been on for so long and it's there as a protection. But if you don't have to keep that up, wow, and just be confident that you're, you're, and I love… you and I both use the word enough a lot, and it's right on the top of your LinkedIn profile, but to just be at peace with the fact that it's like, you know what? This is what you've got. This is what you've got in front of you take it or leave it, and I'm super cool either way. And it's liberating. I recently, well, two plus, yeah, two years ago now, almost coming up on my two-year anniversary, actually had both knees replaced after lots of sports. It was a big surgery, a big pivotal moment in my life, because I've got 19-year-old knees, and not to take the speaking conch chair for too long, but I was following, or I follow this, this coach. She's in a spiritual sort of sector, but she made this point, and she talked about the meditative practice or the realization that, you know, that spark that is our consciousness, isn't it just uses the brain as an organ, and it uses the body as a mechanism, and to almost visualize yourself. I always think of of that scene in Men in Black, where they're eating pierogies, and the face comes open, and it's that little alien. But to realize that you're wearing this meat suit, right, and that you're, this is the way we get around the world is in this meat suit, but it's not you, per se, like it is, but it's not your consciousness. And when I started to think about that on the physical side and said, Well, hey, this is just my meat suit. My meat suit has two artificial needs. My meat suit requires certain things. It's built in a certain way. That means I'm capable of some things and not capable of others. Wow. What a liberating thought, and what an ability to kind of love my meat suit, because I'm not going to get another one anytime soon, and I can sit back and say. Hey, this, takes stock. This is what I like about it. This is what I find challenging about it. But I can love the whole mess and just realize it like it's a, you know, I think people often have more love for their cars than they've got for their body. And that's pretty funny, you know. And so I know that, that we're not talking physicality here, but again, it's that, that ability to say, You know what, even if I'm carrying some family baggage part of my operating system, I can still love that part of myself as I seek to to work with it. Massimo 26:15 Absolutely. I mean, Tim, what you just shared is, this example is a beautiful example of what a practice of self-compassion looks like, and it balances the acceptance of what it is that we have with the compassion to take care of what it is that we have, right? So, this isn't a passive practice, this isn't something that is just accept my limitations and don't do anything with them. It's accept them and then, from there, choose what will I do with them? What am I going to let go of and accept and what are the things that I'm going to double down on and continue to improve and change? So it's a very, it's very proactive. This is a very energetic practice, and the energy that we need to do it comes from letting go of that mask or the hologram or all the different ways that you describe structure, which is so true. It the single biggest waste of energy in organizations today is people masking, hiding, parading, politicking, doing all these things to hide who they really are for fear that if someone saw them they would be rejected. And the reality is, the person that they really are is better on all accounts than the person that we pretend to be. We just have to trust ourselves enough to show that to people. Tim 27:41 I think it's also really interesting when you're comfortable to lead with who you are, warts and all, and you're rejected, you're getting real feedback. If your mask is rejected, if the image you're putting forward is rejected, you're one step removed. You can actually be kind of deadened to the, to the reality that rejection doesn't really mean that much, no, nor does the praise, you know, or the positive feedback, because we're letting the marionette go first. We're like, you know, one of these guys with the Jim Hensen and it's a puppet. Yes. The puppet can take a lot of abuse. The ventriloquist. Yeah. Tim 28:30 Well, you know what? There's so much farther to go. And I just want to really thank you for taking the time, because we've gone deep in the in the time that we've got. So I want to do two things here. Well, maybe three. First of all, I want you to tell everybody what you're most excited about, because you've got some big news. So, and I know you didn't want to really be the guy to come on and talk about it, but man, you gotta because I know I'm inspired to pick a certain something up. So, quick. Let's tell the people. Massimo 28:58 Thank you. It is very exciting. My first book, “Human First, Leader, Second: How self-compassion outperforms self-criticism”, is coming out in September, September 10, and people can find it on Amazon right now. And for anyone listening whose interest is piqued around, what is this self-compassion practice? And how do I start? This book is written for leaders and teams to start to develop that practice. And it's not a one-size-fits-all all. It's a choose your own adventure, and it will lead towards a place where that energy isn't being wasted and trying to be somebody you're not, but being your best self as a leader. Tim 29:40 If you had one, well, if you had one wish for anybody listening today, what would it be? Massimo 29:43 Go do something kind for yourself. Tim 29:45 It doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be profound. Go do something kind for yourself. Massimo 29:51 Go do something kind for yourself. Take a five minute break in between meetings and get some fresh air. Go stand in the sunshine. Drink a nice cold glass of water. Call an old friend. Doesn't matter what it is, you're worthy of it. You're worth it. And Tim, I know there's a question that I should be asking for the next guest, correct? Tim 30:09 Yeah, what's, what's, what do you have on your mind? Massimo 30:12 What is the one thing that you are most afraid to let go of? And who would you be if you did? Tim 30:19 If people want to get in touch with your mouth. Where can they find you? Massimo 30:22 Massimobackus.com, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm pretty sure I'm the only Massimo Backus out there. And please reach out. And if you buy the book and read it, I want to hear what you think. This is something that I felt called to do. I had an epiphany. I want to share it with other people, and I take no ownership of the idea of self-compassion. I think I've been called to be a messenger, one of many, I hope to share the value of it. I don't see how the world could not be a better place if we all learn to be a little bit kinder to ourselves. Tim 30:54 Love it. Okay. Mas, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. It was a real pleasure. Massimo 31:02 Thank you, Tim. Talk to you soon. Tim 31:06 We'll be in touch when it comes to your launch party. Tim 31:11 Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading. Comments are closed.
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