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TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
Episode Summary: In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, Tim Sweet hosts leadership coach, Jeff Massone. Their conversation explores the impact of distractions on personal growth and productivity. They stress the importance of intentional information consumption and surrounding oneself with positive influences. Jeff shares strategies for minimizing distractions and achieving consistent success. They also discuss the benefits of personalized coaching over generic corporate training, emphasizing how tailored approaches can effectively develop leadership skills and foster genuine growth within organizations.
Episode NotesWelcome to another insightful episode of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. Tim Sweet hosts leadership coach Jeff Massone. Their conversation delves into the complexities of personal and professional growth, focusing on overcoming distractions and fostering positive influences. They start by dissecting the pervasive impact of social media and continuous news cycles on our mindset and productivity.
Throughout their discussion, Jeff underscores the importance of intentional relationships, urging listeners to surround themselves with supportive and motivating individuals. He provides strategies for minimizing negative influences both in professional settings and personal lives, emphasizing the concept of signal-to-noise ratio—where the key lies in filtering out distractions to prioritize valuable information. Tim and Jeff challenge conventional corporate training methods, advocating instead for personalized coaching that aligns with individual strengths and aspirations. Drawing from insights in Marcus Buckingham's "Love and Work," they highlight the significance of understanding unique differences in job satisfaction. They explore Patrick Lencioni's team-building strategies, emphasizing their adaptability to foster deeper team cohesion and commitment. Ultimately, Tim and Jeff stress that effective leadership isn't about rigid adherence to rules but about cultivating individualized paths toward leadership fluency and competency. Through intentional choices and strategic focus, listeners are encouraged to navigate their leadership journey with clarity and purpose. About Jeff Massone Jeff Massone is a dynamic and accomplished leader with a proven 20-year track record as a project leader in corporate America, including professional training as a coach, trainer, and speaker on leadership through the John Maxwell Team. Resources discussed in this episode:
Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: Contact Jeff Massone | Prepared Leader Consulting -- Transcript Jeff 00:01 How do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows? And from not, you know, watching Social Media, yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development. You become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books because I have all my notes in them. They’re reminding me of a situation. Tim 00:26 I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, area leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, welcome to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 37. Tim 01:00 Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership podcast, I am really happy to be inviting a brand new friend that was introduced to me just a few days ago. But I mean, man, Jeff, we've hit it off, I think. Professionally, you and I are just, we're on the same wavelength. Jeff 01:16 100%. I mean, we had talked the other day, I had kind of really wished we were recording at that point. But here we are today. And you know, really ready to dive in. Tim 01:26 The term you use, which I really loved was leadership geek, if we're going to geek out about something geeking out on leadership is one of my favourite things. So, when you and I had a chance to talk, I was really enthused by what you stand for, and how much it really fits with my own thinking. I've always said that the thing that fuels me and moves me forward is I hate watching people struggle. I hate watching people stuck. And you told me a little bit about distraction. Tell us all about that. What caused you to this work? Jeff 01:57 It's so interesting. So, we live in such a distracted world, when you think about what we have to do as workers right? You know, whatever job that you have, you know, whether you have an office job, whether you're out doing construction, a teacher, cop doesn't really matter. You know, we have this ever-present social media, this phone, this leash that we have attached to us, that when you watch people, you're watching them scroll, right? They're just scrolling on social media, with no real purpose, right? And, you know, we know a lot of those distractions, you know, are actually making you angry, fearful, making you sad. And, you know, that's going to do nothing for what you're trying to do for your career. Right? So, that's number one. And then the kissing cousins that are is 24/7 cable news, you know, that does the same thing, the anger, the fear, the anxiety, the depression, and you know, it just takes your eye off the ball, right? You're trying to, you know, in my world, project management, you know, launch a new product, right? Or trying to come up with a new product design, no matter what you're doing in your world. There that distraction is, if you let it. I work with people, I tell them right away. So, why don't we do this? Why don't try this at least six weeks diet, have no social media just take it off? Right? Well, you know, I need to– no, you can have it on your computer, but just take it off your phone, right? Let's try that. Let's try not looking at the news for that same amount of time. And what you do is the best thing you can do is replace that time because you realize there's going to be a void. You're so used to reaching for that phone to look at Instagram or looking at LinkedIn or looking at Facebook. This time you’re like, Oh, there's nothing there. Once you replace it with a TED Talk. Tim 03:35 Yeah. Something positive. Jeff 03:39 Something positive that's gonna help your career. You know, for me, I'm sitting there, and I watch. I'm like, wow, you know, 24/7 News. You know, even the one in the left and the right, right, even though I agree with, it's not helping you be a better parent, right? It's not helping you be a better business owner, be a better team leader. It's helping you with exactly nothing. Tim 04:01 So, really being intentional about where we direct our attention. And what we consume. My family is full of teachers, my sister has this great saying and she says little pots have big handles. And I don't think it's just kids, I think we have big handles too. And if we let the wrong something in, well, it can stay there. Or it can at least occupy space that could be better used. And one of the things that you'd said in our lead up to this and I know we're gonna get there again. But this distraction isn't just happening that's externally sometimes this can be distraction by the wrong tools or things that were handed within our pursuit of management, or leadership, or sales, or our own business. And there's things that are presented as answers, but they can also be distractions, they can also take us away from the things that are going to provide real value. And that's something that I really like that line of thought. Jeff 04:58 For those that are listening here, you know, and obviously, we know, we're well aware that Tim and I are that way to be able to promote this yes, we have to use social media, right? You're going to be seeing, you know, some promotions on Instagram, you know, LinkedIn places. But at the same time, I've worked with people who, again, use social media, and that's how they make money. And they're not on the platforms save maybe a half hour in the morning and a half hour at night. Because they know that distraction that at least, so if people who are actively using social media to bring in money, and so they're putting food on the table, aren't engaging in the platforms all day long, that should tell you something, right? You know, often, they'll hire people, like if they're reaching out to you for their services, it's not really them, right? It's their team, even though it's under their name. So, again, be mindful of that fact that, you know, even in that case, that extreme case of usership on social media, they're not using it any degree that most people are using it today at this time. Tim 06:02 So, what I hear you saying is that we have to control and be mindful and intentional around what we're bringing in. And I like the phrase signal to noise ratio, we need to turn up the signal and the quality of those signals, and we need to really be mindful of and try to lessen the noise, right? And so we have all this external noise. When we think about coaching, and the pursuit of it, or the pursuit of personal development, career development, all of these things, what are some of the specific sources of noise that you encounter? And maybe I'll ask you first to talk about what's really common among people that you run into? Jeff 06:45 The biggest source of noise is what I used to call it water cooler talk, right? You're kind of going to the water cooler, and you hear all the negative things that somebody feels about the company, somebody feels about their life. And, you know, that's, you know, again, doesn't serve you in terms of, you know, what's entering your mind. Other things, that's just really important. I mean, you have to guard what's going into your mind, you know, what a lot of people don't understand is, you know, that your thoughts, impact your emotions, your emotions, impact your actions, and then your actions then lead to your results. But what people don’t realize is, you know, what starts with the thoughts, I mean, you're being fed something. So, that's, we have to figure out like, what am I going to stop this? So yes, we talked about social media. Yes, we talked about 24/7 news. But then there's the negative people, right? So, who are you around, you know, in, you know, in your business or in the workplace, and are they you know, a positive force? Do you feel good when you've actually walked away with 10-minute conversation? Do you feel motivated? Or do you not? So, I mean, I think that's really, you know, something that's very important for people to understand, and I didn't realize it, right, you know, you go into, you know, you start a job, and then you kind of just kind of get around folks, and, you know, you have to stop that like, as soon as you start hearing something that's not positive, you have to go out and say, Alright, you know, let me just find a new tribe. Right? And that's just so that's just so important. Because you know, then it gets, you know, you have this other negativity that's getting in your head and that's hard. The hardest thing I'll say to Tim, is when the negative noise are your family and friends. Tim 08:24 Oh, yeah, that can be rough. And as you were talking about whether it's at the home, whether it's at the watercooler you're saying, one of the characteristics of that negative talk that I've noticed a lot is that it can develop a life of its own, it can become this myth. And these stories, and these opinions that people forget where they come from, but they turn into these self-perpetuating doom tornadoes, and stigmas, and stories that people now have to contend with, when we don't even know exactly if they're based, in fact, any more, but they become the popular rhetoric because maybe it allows people to externalize other nerves and stuff that they're feeling. And so it fuels this thing like a really negative fire, and the ability to spot that, not contribute to it, and then pull oneself out of it is really important. But speak to me a little bit about this, because what I've noticed is when one chooses to pull oneself out of that, they can then incur the wrath of all the believers, right? They can then become the target and that often is enough motivation for people to stay at that water cooler and in that tribe. So, what do you suggest when a person feels exposed by trying to out the negative story? Jeff 09:47 There’s a certain finesse that you can do that. I mean, you certainly don't say wow, you're the most negative person I've ever heard, please never talk to me again. You just politely sort of like, you know, move on and then slowly kind of ween yourself off hard, right? Like, it's like you're not, you know, you'd be like, wow, like, you know what, what just happened there. And you just try to find yourself and this is hard, you know, I come from, you know, larger organizations, you know, fortune 500 pharmaceutical companies. And when we were in the office consistently, at least where I work, there was a lot of opportunity to just find a new tribe, you know, when you're in a really small company, that can be very, very difficult. Right? But, you know, in general, you know, what you're trying to look for is you're trying to get around folks that are where you want to be. Tim 10:30 Yeah, what I say your success and your place in life is the sum average of those you choose to surround yourself. Right? Jeff 10:37 Right? They usually say, I think it's like the average of the five people you hang out with, you know, and again, you so, it's almost like, you have to do it and like little silos, right? The workplace silo, and then like, you're outside of work silos. Like who are you hanging out with, you know, outside of work? Are you hanging out with strivers, right? You know, which is awesome, you know, are you hanging out with people that are just, like, happy to punch the clock, so to speak, and you know, get in/get out. We actually, you know, the best thing you can do is hanging out again, like I said, you know, if you're a business owner, you hang out with a business owner that's been doing it, you know, in his or her realm for, you know, 5, 10, 15 years and has scaled and has grown, and you're like, Oh, my God, you make what per month? You're not gonna have, you're gonna have much, you're just gonna have much different conversations. I think one of the things that I heard years and years ago, I think I said to John Maxwell, that was, you know, people are literally around the same table with the same people talking about the same thing. And they're wondering why they're in the same position in their life, particularly from a career perspective. Tim 11:43 I mean, certain types of energies are like air and water for people. And I used to use the term water hole, because it was like, the water hole that I needed, the water that I needed to drink was different than other animals. I want to find people that are in search of the same water holes that I am, that are in search of tapping into those same energies. And so, for instance, I do a lot of work with startup companies. There's a specific energy around that. I do a lot of work with universities, there's a specific energy around that. And I do a lot of work in sports entertainment, sports event company, that is a specific type of energy. Now, they're all different venues and different spaces. But the energy that I get out of it, that I look for is this is a compatible waterhole for lack of a better word. And that water hole is not comfort. And that water hole is not safety. And that water hole is not leisure, that water hole is, you know, if I think about the mountain biking race company that I'm part of, find what's on the inside-outside is their tagline that speaks to me on levels that I can't even properly articulate all the time. So, look for those sources of people that are out for the same thing, that are fueled on the same sustenance, and are with you in the hunt, and with you in the gather. Jeff 13:08 Yeah, it's interesting. And I love how you gave those different examples, right of the startup or the university, you're not going to one specific avatar, right? But you know, the energy of the people that you're trying to get here, that positive energy, that energy of creation, right? You know, who you are around, right? Like, when you start talking to people, I love talking to successful business owners, right? It's a different energy than, say, a corporate executive. Right? And, you know, maybe the bank accounts look similar, right, in terms of their annual income. But it's so very different. When you talk to somebody who has, you know, started, like, you know, we're a startup, you know, then they're a company, and then they scale their company, and that they're continuing to grow, you know, because what they're doing, what they have done, you know, is they've got their own coaches to say, hey, you know, mentors, you know, to see how they, how can they get to the next level, okay, you know, we’re a six-figure company, and now we're a seven-figure company, eight-figure, and now we're trying to get to nine, right? And it's, you know, they don't just stop, you know, whereas, you know, as successful executive, you know, they fly to a certain level, right? And executive can mean different things to different people, you know, but, you know, maybe you're making, you know, 150, or 200. And that's where you'd like to live there. And then you're just kind of just there, right? You know, what are you making 300 or 400, as an executive, you're just kind of there, right? And if you're not looking to grow or scalel that you're just like looking to hold on to it, which is different. Tim 14:33 It's very different. Jeff 14:34 Then trying to grow something. Tim 14:38 In the back catalogue, we've had two shows now with my good friend, Richard Young. Now Richard was on the Own The Podium committee for Canada and then the UK and then New Zealand, and he continues to run his practice out of New Zealand. Well, I mean, Richard is one of my favourite people ever. But his PhD and his research is all about what predicts a person from consistently meddling at the Olympics, or within higher sport competition, and a huge part of what Richard teaches is it's not about what we add, it's about what we let go of, you know, and many of the people that have worked with me will talk about the folly of additive logic versus reductive logic or transformation versus additive change. Anyway, when we look at the people we want to surround ourselves with, one of the hallmarks that I see in people that are moving easily in the strata that we want to achieve is that they're moving easily in the strata, they're moving, it's the path of least resistance for them. It's the thing that is that they've let loose of a lot of the preconceptions and the shoulds that a lot of popular business books or courses teach that you have to do. And they've just focused in on the right kind of signal, right? And they focused in on the things that that bring results. And that leaves them all sorts of room to be themselves and to believe what they're going to believe and go in and live their lives. Because they don't overcomplicate things, because they figured out that formula that they are enough. And often the people that are striving, which is a great place to be to strive, right? It's funny how often striving means doing less, it means getting to a point where it just feels easy. Or at least comparatively easy, I guess is what I would say. Jeff 16:32 I love how you brought up, you know, I have to look into Richard Young and his work, you know, but as a consistent mentalist, I mean, my son is a competitive swimmer. You know, he's in high school level right now. And we're watching the US Olympic trials right now. And my guess is when this airs, it'll be the right before, right during the Olympics. Like when you see the people that this is their third trip, right? Like, what is driving that? Like, what are they doing, you know, like, quote-unquote, differently? You know, and people want to study that. And people want to hear from that, you know, and you're talking about a high-level elite athlete, or you're talking about, you know, a super successful business owner, business person like Bezos or Musk, right? Branson? Wow, like, you know, but people see the end, right? They don't see the unglamorous start, they don't see the equally unglamorous kind of middle. People see the end, right? And I think they get so end-focused, right? You know, you have folks who say, I want to be a VP by 30. Okay, for who do we want? You know, what are you looking to give up to be able to do that? So, it's, it's really interesting when you study excellence, and I also say to like, when you have those people, you know, those drivers, those super elite athletes, and it's no different than professional sports, and that, you know, here in the United States, NFL, or major league baseball, those elite athletes can pay, you know, 10s, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars to do a sport. The elite Olympic athletes are different. Yes, they get sponsorships and whatnot, the top of the top, most of them aren't getting anything. Tim 18:07 There's not a lot of sponsorship for certain sports. Jeff 18:10 Which means that after they're done, they gotta go do something. Tim 18:13 Yeah, or do it while they're, while they're training and everything else. Jeff 18:17 And I often think of like, I haven't seen a lot of elite athletes in a non-commissioned based role in corporate, you know, maybe somebody's hidden, once this is out could say, hey, you know, but I say that, because we don't have a meritocracy, right now, in the corporate world. People are getting promotions and whatnot, a lot of times for other reasons than accomplishing things. And I would imagine that, you know, the elite athlete trying to, you know, get into the corporate American watching this. It's a direct conflict, you know, with what it is that they've done throughout their young life, you know, and how they've achieved, you know, put in the work and achieved and then that's how you get, you know, your accomplishments. And that's not corporate America, it's more of the entrepreneurial world, right? I mean, what you're putting in and what you're getting out, high risk, high reward, but it's very different. You know, and it's just, I said that a while ago on the clubhouse app, you know, put it out to one of those clubhouse rooms, and people were just they sat there and thought they're like, yeah, that there was nobody in that room so to speak, that could come up with somebody that they knew that, you know, we're in a not again, non commissioned role, that I just don't think it exists because it's just diametrically opposed to their lifestyle. Tim 19:30 I think one of the the outcomes of this episode should be, I think we need to A. talk to our listeners who do you know, that has been elite in their sport and has managed to translate that into performance in business, or academically or some other pursuit? I do know that there are several people that I've been exposed to that have been ex-CFL football players or ex-NFL or Olympic people in everything from curling, to fencing, to, you know, but they've been achievement-focused to cycling, right? And the key with that, and it brings us to another sort of interesting crossroad here is that they were either lucky enough, or had guidance enough to be able to maintain their growth from a business professionals perspective maybe, but also had opportunities to join institutions and organizations that could see the value of their life experiences, and apply that into certain roles, rather than getting stuck on a tenure track of being a subject matter expert, which is why leadership is often a great place for these certain people to enter if they don't have a technical skill, or proficiency. But it raises an interesting point when we sort of circle back around to the focus that a person needs to maintain. There's so much in the area of team development and personal development, which is myopic on either a single answer, like so say it's a program. But that program assumes that you have a standard type of development through the beginning of your career, that you've gone to school, and you've got a degree and you've got all these things. And then there's this magic bullet process, which is suddenly going to answer everything. Whereas really, you know, one of the first key things that I note when I coach and facilitate to large groups is, people are all incredibly different, there will be no, this seems like a bit of a dumb thing to say. But when you have people that are starting from such different places from an education, experience, lifestyle, socio-economic, gender, could be race, can be all of these different elements that make them who they are. And we try to give them a vanilla product that's going to suddenly be translated, you know, it just doesn't work. I mean, scientifically, that's lunacy, we've got so many different variables that we need. Sure. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a good program, but then we need to go bespoke, we need to be able to customize or give them the tools to customize it to their needs. Jeff 22:15 That's absolutely right. And I know, you know, in our previous conversation, I mentioned a book I just finished by Marcus Buckingham Love and Work. And, you know, he goes into a lot of topics, but one of them is the uniqueness of people. People are so unique that people in the same role love different things about it. In his book, he goes into housekeepers at Disney, you know, and interviewed them when he was with Gallup. Right? He was just trying to figure out, you know, like, okay, like, Well, what do you love about your job? Right, you know, and all the different things. So, when you extrapolate that to, you know, any job function, you see that uniqueness, and to your point, you know, this one magic pill, you know, one thing that I've seen in corporate is, you know, the onsite, you know, the two-day on-site training, or the off-site, you know, whichever way– Tim 23:04 Pre-packaged, pre-scheduled, yeah. Jeff 23:08 And it doesn't work. You know, corporations are spending, like six figures, depending on the size of the corporation, maybe even more to deliver this kind of, like, here it is, this is what leadership is, then they wonder why things haven't changed, people don't retain and it's proven, that, you know, once a couple of weeks have gone by, maybe they remember 17% of it, and then another couple of weeks after that, you know, 2%. You know, and then people just kind of go back to their normal ways of working, because that delivery model training, isn't transformative. Training is not transformative. And you know, when people think of it that well, okay, well, what should we do? You know, I had another conversation at a networking event. So, people like to check the box. So, a company so well, we provided them leadership development training, so good on us, right? If it didn't create better leaders, then what did you really provide? You know, and people don't realize, you know, coaching, right, coaching is really the modality that causes transformation. Unfortunately, you know, people don't see coaching, you know, beyond, you know, executive coach, right, you know, you have an executive that's deemed to be not a great leader. So, you know, give him, you know, an executive coach, so that, you know, he can brush up on his leadership skills and, you know, maybe show up better, you know, with his or her direct reports. You know, that's what people think about coaching is this remedial thing, you know, and, you know, you take a step forward, and you say, oh, wait a minute. You know, it's particularly from a leadership development perspective. If you offer group coaching, right, group coaching to individual contributors before they had the privilege of leading others. That's something different, and virtually nobody's doing that today. Right? People don't realize that that's something that can be offered. That's something that should be offered. A lot of it's on the coaches themselves, they go right to the executive because they know, they go right to the business owner. When I get it from a coach, that's what I'm gonna work with, because that's what pays the bills. So, but you're coaching for like a transformation. You know, one of the things I've said for years is, you know, the leadership development I've seen, you know, that's given a brand scholars to sales professionals call that leadership development to turn a buck. They say, alright, well, we'll give our sales professionals leadership development training, and you know, they're going to start selling 25% more, and this is great for the bottom line and makes all the sense. But in any given company, most companies are, you know, they're not sales professionals. Yeah, how about leadership development, to change a culture to really go in there and change the culture much like, you know, I just said the other day, Major League Baseball, right, has this farm system, right? And, you know, they decided to build their farm system, you know, because they want to compete consistently at the high level, you know, in five to seven years. You know, what I think companies should be doing today in terms of leadership and culture, is build their farm system, who's their farm systems, individual contributors that are out of college, out of graduate school, that aren't leading people that leading one soul you know, yet. It's the people who put through group coaching program for leadership development, you know, in a year format, and see, like, wow, these people are going to now be operating in a different level. And oh, by the way, prepared to lead others, once they're given the privilege, say, you know, what, I think this person can handle a couple of direct reports. But you know, what, I think she can handle her own team, or this one, you know, yes, team tomorrow, department, right, and entire department in two years from now. So, these are the kinds of things that nobody is doing, right? You know, people are promoted for reasons other than their, we think they're going to be a great leader. I mean, to me, people don't even know where leadership is, right? Leadership is a battery of competencies, a battery of dozens of different competencies. But people confuse leadership for, you know, as being a subject matter expert, because you're the kind of you know, in the company, well, then we need to promote you, you know, you're the greatest marketer, well then we need to promote you, that is necessarily mean, you're going to be a great leader of other people. That confusion of leadership and excellence, is, you know, I think what's gotten us down a wrong path, you know, and from a corporate perspective, at the very least. Tim 27:30 When you think about it that way, and touching on a few of the points that you've brought up. Leadership is a battery of competencies. Yes, nd many different people with many different styles, different personalities, different backgrounds are going to deliver and emulate and express those competencies in very, very different ways. The competency is the outcome, it's not the way we get there. It's the ability to do something, it's not that you have to paint by number to do it a certain way. You have to find your way to do that. And, well, I think it's, you know, you'd said earlier that you can have groups that come together, and they like their job. And often, I mean, I just finished two more rapid normings, though, over the last couple of weeks. And I teach this, this portion called, The Wheel, where we have to talk about the six things that we have to identify as part of the team that we have to be talking about with employees and whatnot, so that they feel stable, who we are, what do we do? What do we care about today? Who's doing what? How do we behave? And why are we the team that's going to do it? And that's drawn from the work of Pat Lencioni. The issue and what Pat didn't touch on, is that everybody needs to connect to those things individually. Who are we as a team? It's a mix of people and histories and all this, why does that matter to me, and it's gonna be very different than why it matters to you. What do we do? And what do we care about? Why do those two things matter to me? And that's going to be very different than it matters to somebody else? What's our code of behaviour on? What's the role division and how we're aligning the work? And why are leaders believe in us? And why are those things important to me? Why do they make me feel whole when I'm in the workplace, and then take the work as a leader and as a leader of people, we have to coach this and mentor people into it. Do I both know and foster in everybody on my team a connection with the work not just the task, not just the paycheck, but what we're doing. And it doesn't have to be a deep connection in the sense of, you know, I'm a sanitary professional that goes around and picks up garbage. We can laugh at something like that. But for people that do that, and they do it long term, they can connect to other things. I like being outside. I like the movement. I like big, heavy machinery. I like getting a glimpse into people's lives. I like to earn a paycheck. I like to do a job that disgusts everybody else. It could be different for everyone else. Jeff 29:54 It doesn't make sense to you. And that’s part of what Marcus says too, like it doesn't have to sense. Tim 29:58 Yes. What’s the connection? Jeff 29:59 Absolute sense to the individual. You know, and I'm glad you mentioned Patrick Lencioni, too. And we've talked, you know, in this podcast, you know, I mentioned John Maxwell, we mentioned Patrick Lencioni mentioned Marcus Buckingham, you know, there's a theme here that I want the audience, you know, today's audience to listen to and say, understand that there's not this one thought leader that you just read the one author, right? There's so much truth in it, you start reading out and like I said, nerd out, on all of these authors, because there's going to be truths in there that you can apply directly to your career, right? And really, you don't just read it to get through it– Tim 30:38 Read it for application. Where's the tool? Jeff 30:43 Right. Exactly. You read it for application. You know, how can I get better? Right? That's the screen. Like, how can I draw conclusions to that? And I think that's really where, you know, I want people to understand that how do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows, then from not, you know, watching cable news, social media. Yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development, start your own curriculum, you become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and I encourage you many different authors. And just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books, because I have all my notes in them, reminding me of a situation, Tim 31:25 I was talking to somebody the other day about audible, and that I tend to buy the audible book and listen and buy the book. I buy both because I want the expedience of and the kind of listening experience of the audible book. But then I want to be able to go back, make notes, extract text, do all of those things with and have the tactile thing of having that reference material. I have an eclectic mix of books on my shelf. And I have a little spot that's for the ones that haven't earned their place yet. And every one of those books are books that I go back to again, and again and again because they are proper reference material. But an interesting thing I was going to bring up that, again, went back to what you were saying before, businesses often hire these trainers to come in. And that's really about adhering to a process and a certain, you know, paint-by-number approach, certain methodology. If a person is going to make use of that, and that can be good things coming into that too, or they're going to read things or whatever. As you said something earlier, something crystallized for me. As coaches, we're not there necessarily to help them learn to be leaders. In a way we're there to help them unlearn to be leaders. They've got to unlearn all of the useless stuff. And I like using the word fluency, get them fluent about themselves, how they want to be how they are today. So, that you can see the gaps that they have to go searching to fill. In a sense, they have to go, you know, if you're going to fill your toolbox, well know what tools you're short of, or know why you have each tool in the toolbox and make sure that it's you know, there's a place for everything and everything in its place. But that toolbox will be specific to you and your craft, and how you handle the tools, and how you approach the work. So, help them unlearn to be able to learn. Help them get fluent to be able to seek, you know, and that to me is is so critical when it comes to be the difference between you know, these program coaches who are largely trainers, they're going through a paint-by-number piece. I used to teach meeting skills and so I was very good at a very formalized agenda. And I ever used it, especially in my line of work, I now just have a list of outcomes, say, here's where we're going to get. And I've got a general approach in mind. But anticipate I will be calling an audible because I don't know what I'm dealing with until I'm in dealing with a group, until I'm in dealing with people, then I will start where they are, and I will craft for what they need. Not start with my agenda and my method, because otherwise, I'm not there for them. I'm there to deliver a commodity and that's not how I work. Jeff 34:09 Yeah, no that's absolutely right. And I think, you know, it's understanding that difference between training and coaching. Like training as a delivery, coaching is a journey. As a coach, you want to be able to guide people through that journey. And it's a very, very different thing. And again, you know, what's great, what can be great about training, or we can be great about going to a conference is if it starts that journey, if it's a catalyst, right? It's just saying, hey, you know what, you know, I am going to commit to your meeting X amount of books on leadership, you know, this year, or I'm going to commit to going through a coaching program, you know, to find out like, how I can lead better, you know, because it's not only is it individualistic, it's also you know, based on the company itself, like you know, what's going to work you know, in, you know, your role today, you know, may not work, those leadership skills may not work in the same company in a different role. Right? So, that's why it's always this kind of journey to say, alright, you know, what got me here isn't necessarily what's going to get me there. And is that thing, that's what I tell people, you know, that the concept of building your leadership skills to the fidelity that you built, you know, whatever subject you went to school for, right? You know, you could be, you know, the best accountant in America, right? or Canada. Right? But, you know, what have you done to build your leadership skills to be at that level, that same level, right, you know, people think I need to get continuing education, so I can keep my project management certification, and they're, like, not even paying attention to it, you know, they're sitting there for, you know, the three days and they got, they got it. This is not that this is like really getting serious about it. And it's serious about the craft of leadership, but not taking yourself too seriously. Tim 35:57 Well, the craft of self-development. Jeff 36:00 You're right, it's not an I'm better than you scenario. Not in any way. It is, I've decided that I want to be a better teammate, or I want to be a better leader, you know, I want to be just grow to be, you know, a better version of myself. I mean, I know that that's, you know, can be sort of like that trait overused term. But the fact is, I mean, how many people are actually actively trying that and again, I had an event here in New Jersey, a couple of months ago, and I talked to it and one of the slides I threw up was a stock ticker, right? Your leadership development journey is going to look like a stock price, the up-downs, and hopefully, it's trending upward. But like, it's not about perfection, either. Like, you know, people think about, like, if I'm going to be a leader, like, you know, I have to be perfect, it's not about perfect, it's about trying to get better. And that's where people, that's where coaching gets into you, we never possibly ever get that from a leadership development training. And for those people in leadership positions now, that thought, like, oh they were doing right, you know, by providing this training, and then they're frustrated, because, you know, you spent all that money and it didn't work. Think about getting coaching for your team, getting that done, because that's really very, very important. Tim 37:17 To wrap up here, the distinct differences, when you're realizing that coaching is the modality, not necessarily trained. Training is information-based. It's content, not context, coaching puts it in the context of the individual, and you're from New Jersey, but I often think of Beantown when I think about, I know, it's not super close, but anyway, it's closer than I am. Jeff 37:41 Close enough. Same general type of person in North East. Tim 37:43 But there's that scene in, in Goodwill Hunting, when he said, you know, you're gonna be sitting back, and you're gonna be looking at all your student loans, and you're gonna have a $400,000 education or something, and you're gonna realize that you could have learned all this with a buck 75 and late charges from the library. And, you know, information is not the problem here. And I've actually run into groups that come to me and say, Hey, we want to want you to put together a Leadership University for us. And I'm like, go on LinkedIn. Like you don't need me to generate content, the content is out there. What you need is you need people to learn how to steer their lives, to be able to source the right content, apply it well, and do it all so that both they win and their family wins and their career benefits and that they're in balance. And that we're not out of whack here, anybody can pick up a new idea and try to apply it as a bright, shiny thing, and sometimes destroy themselves doing it. Right? So– Jeff 38:50 Absolutely, you know, and that's the thing too, like, people don't want to go to school anymore. Like they went to school already. And you know, something, you know, whether you finish in high school, college, graduate school or beyond, right? And then in corporations were given them more school, that's what training is, this is school again. You know, again, not only does it not work, people really don't want that. But like when you get them a coach, right? And again, you got to do your due diligence on coaches, right? If you're a business owner, or an executive thinking about getting a coach for your team, you know, and that coach has never had a coach before runaway because that tells you that they don't believe, you know, in the process of coaching, because if they did, you know, and they're asking you to spend money, because if they did, you know, they would have had coaches themselves. I know you have had several coaches, I have had coaches and continually like, you know, working with two guys right now, you know, and again, it's again to continue to improve like the, you know, the person that's got coached by me and 2023, you know, is a different coaching experience for those that are working with me right now in 2024. You know, and will be in 2025. The point is continually getting better at the craft of coaching, right, you know, so people need to understand that as well. I don't know in terms of that, again, that training piece, if people remember nothing else, and again, to all the folks that are listening to provide training, God bless you, the training does not work. I’ve been on the training end, both end up training, delivering training and receiving training, it just doesn't work. And coaching does– Tim 40:23 Just, you know, ask anybody who spent money on a training scenario to go out and anonymously poll their group. And you'll find that some people, man, it was great, it's the best thing they've ever went through. And often the leader will have gone through the training, and think that this is just the bee's knees. Well, the reason was, the leader was ready for that piece of information at that time, and it was very useful for them. But that doesn't guarantee that 90% of anybody else in that call is ready or can use that information. The information doesn't steer it, you’ve got to start where people are. And as you say, it's the journey, and the ability to go through that journey. Jeff 40:58 And too, the content is there like and that's one thing we talked about, I just want to kind of give the opinions here the content, there's been content, oh, just since 1990, right? Like how much leadership development content is there. But yet the workplace still sucks. People will hear Simon Sinek, “Leaders Eat Last,” and say this is the greatest thing in the world, and not behave in any way of how he's describing but they listened to his Tim 41:22 Got the certification, check. Jeff 41:25 Right, they showed it to their team and say now that they quote him at a town hall. Tim 41:29 Bought everybody a copy. Jeff 41:30 That in reality, they're not acting like him. So, again, the content is always there, you can go out there and learn yourself, you know, you get an education yourself that self-learning, whether it is you know, the TED Talk videos on YouTube, go on YouTube, search, leadership development, get the books, but again, the only way that it's really going to kind of move the needle for you and your team is through coaching. Tim 41:53 Yeah, if you've hold the row for that particular seed to take plant. Take route, here we go. So, we're going to wrap up, I want to thank you very much for opening up to us. I love where we're headed. I think we're gonna have to book another one because I think we've got lots more to talk about, I think we could dive deep on some of these issues. For sure. We've got a couple of traditions here, as we close up and people who have heard these before, the first thing I want you to tackle. So, we have a question from Rita, who joined us last episode. And this is gonna get bombed at you. But don't worry, you're gonna have a chance to bomb a question at the next person. Rita asks, what is the advice you would give your newly minted self if you were just entering the workforce? And you wish you had had that advice when you started? Jeff 42:43 Absolutely, you know, I think about this a lot. And from my perspective, it is really get around the right people. Now, explain what we explained at the beginning of the podcast is getting around people of who've achieved where you want to go. And if you're starting to hear people in your workplace that are negative, you know, just politely kind of distance yourself from them, you're not better than them, you just don't need to hear negative things. That's exactly what I would tell my younger self is that, again, leadership development is not about being better than your coworker. It’s not about being better than your neighbour, it's about being the best version of yourself and adding value to other people. So, that's exactly what I would say, just get around the right people, get away from negative people Tim 43:27 Choose that focus. Jeff 43:29 Put yourself on that focus. Tim 43:33 Yeah, right. Love it. If you were to have a wish, for anybody who is listening that they're going to take away from this podcast, what would you wish for people be? Jeff 43:44 Honestly, I wish people, you know, to disengage from all the negativity that is out there in social media in 24/7 news, it is not serving you guys in any way, shape, or form. Those things are there to honestly make money for the advertisers that advertise on there. So, you know, if you can just remove yourself, you know, live like it's 1980. Right, you know, and again, not hiding your head in the sand. I'm not suggesting that, but you just don't need to take in this kind of content. And it will it will change your world. No question about it. Tim 44:17 Without going down this path. But we can talk about it a little later. We just had an announcement here in Alberta that the public school system now is going to ban social media apps and personal devices during the school day. Jeff 44:29 That's awesome. There's a couple of governors here that are doing the same and we're going to try to see what we can do in New Jersey for that because it's– Tim 44:36 We've got the data now yeah, we know what's we'd like to think of ourselves as adults but we are learning beings and we are just as prone to that. Okay. If I was to ask you a question you want answered from the next leadership, visionary, what would it be? Jeff 44:56 Sure, absolutely. So, I would say, you know, what, do you want to be known for as your leadership legacy? Tim 45:03 I love that question. I think I would actually add on to that and say, what do you want to be known to as your leadership legacy? And how can we help other people find out what they want to be known in their leadership? You know, how can we actually create that for others? But I am very curious to ask that question. In both phases. If you don't mind, I'm going to tack that one on because like, it's a great one. Jeff 45:24 No, attack that on, absolutely. Tim 45:27 Jeff, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show today. And I hope you had a lot of fun. Jeff 45:33 Tim, it's been great. And I can't wait to come back because I feel it percolating, like another 30-40 minutes of, you know, a completely different interview. And I'm looking forward to when we can do that. Tim 45:44 Oh, no. 100%. Well, let's look more for Jeff in the feed. And to all of you out there listening. Thank you very much for taking the time to invest in yourself. And Jeff, we'll see you again real soon. Jeff 45:53 All right. Take care, Tim. Tim 45:53 Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading. Comments are closed.
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