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TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
TEAM WORK EXCELLENCE
Episode Summary: In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim Sweet welcomes back Rita Ernst, an esteemed organizational psychologist and founder of Ignite Your Extraordinary. They discuss the detrimental effects of comparison in the workplace and the importance of cultivating a growth mindset. Rita shares insights from her career, and her book, "Show Up Positive," focusing on creating fulfilling and joyful work environments. Join us as we explore strategies to combat discontent and maximize every experience on your professional journey.
Episode Notes In this engaging episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim Sweet welcomes back organizational psychologist Rita Ernst. Rita, the founder of Ignite Your Extraordinary and author of "Show Up Positive," delves into the detrimental nature of comparison in the workplace. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining a growth mindset and extracting value from every experience, regardless of current job satisfaction. Rita shares personal anecdotes from her career, highlighting moments of discontent and the inner critic's role in fostering negativity. She offers practical advice on recognizing and challenging these detrimental thought patterns, ultimately guiding listeners toward a more positive and fulfilling professional life. This episode is for anyone seeking to enhance their workplace experience and personal growth. About Rita Ernst Rita Ernst is a distinguished organizational psychologist with over 15 years of experience in corporate roles focused on organizational development, performance management, and human resource development. She is the founder of Ignite Your Extraordinary, a consultancy dedicated to designing workplaces people love. Rita is also the author of "Show Up Positive," a book aimed at helping individuals and organizations recover from the pandemic's impact and cultivate healthier, more joyful work environments. Her passion lies in fostering human-centred leadership and creating spaces where employees thrive. Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: Contact Rita Ernst | Positivity Influencer, Author, Consultant:
Transcript Rita 00:01 Are you maximizing each experience? You know, you may not be where you want to be yet. And this experience may not be the best experience. But that doesn't mean that you can't take something of value out of it. So, every step that you go, is an opportunity to learn and grow, if you have that mindset. Tim 00:26 Do you rely on others to set a vision and then give them what they need so that they can achieve something they never would be able to do on their own? Whether or not you formally lead a team. If this sounds like you, then you, my friend, are the definition of a leader. And this show is all about bringing you new insights from real people that you've never been exposed to. So, you can grow and increase your impact on the world and feel more fulfilled while you're doing it. I'm Tim Sweet and you're joining us now for episode 36 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, welcome. Tim 01:03 Hey, everybody, it's Tim here. And I want to say welcome. I also want to welcome a repeat guest. This is Rita Ernst. Rita, always happy to have you, it's always such a positive experience to have you come into my space. And I just can't wait to play again with you. Rita was one of our very early guests. It was two episodes. So, make sure you check out the back catalogue because it's excellent. But for those who haven't been exposed to the brilliance of the jewel, that is Rita Ernst, Rita, could you give us a little bit about yourself, please? Rita 01:36 Thanks for inviting me back to Tim. It has been a bit of a minute since I got to be with you on the show. But we love to talk. Tim 01:44 We're out a year almost exactly. Rita 01:44 Probably, so but yeah, we both love to talk. So, this will be a chock-a-block full. I will work on conversations go. But it's good to hear I'm on stay on brand good to know I stay on brand. So, I am an organizational psychologist, that's been my entire career. I spent the first 15-plus years working in traditional corporate roles, doing a lot of organization development, work performance management work, human resource development work, and then I decided to extricate myself out of corporate life temporarily. And that sort of became permanent. And I started my own business called Ignite Your Extraordinary, my focus is still on using my organizational psychology skills to design workplaces people love. I mean, if we just come to the short of it, that's really what is all about. We spend 90,000 of our waking hours in our lifetime in the workplace. And I just believe those need to be happy, productive, fulfilling hours. That's what I want for myself. That's what I want for my parents. That's what I want for my siblings, for the people that I care about my life, I want them to be in a workplace that they love, and that loves them back. And I want to help people learn how to create those spaces. Tim 03:02 I think finding a workplace where you can really at the end of the day, love the time that you spent there. I think even loving the people that you're spending that time with to a certain extent, and we don't like to talk about that a lot. Professionally, love is never fully on the balance sheet. But I think it's important to find connection with the people that we're spending all of this time with. And I am now and have always been a big fan of that and the efforts that you put forward in educating people. So, I want to make sure that we let people know that they can also follow up with you. And we're going to tell them a little bit more about that at the end of the program. But for right now, when you and I were getting ready to hit the record button here. It's interesting, you're at a very, very neat crossroads in your professional career. You're an author, you have multiple writings out now. And you're finding more and more influence around the globe, you're finding that the interest is starting to go beyond the Pacific and the Atlantic. And I'm so excited for you that that is now a new chapter that's opening up for you. And I think that that's excellent. But as we were considering that, that work, and those pursuits can sometimes come at a great cost. And we push ourselves into certain areas. And so I thought it was fascinating and this is where I'd like to take us that when we set big goals like that. We have to be conscious that we don't sacrifice too much of ourselves or other areas of our lives while we do that. So, maybe you could tell me a little bit in terms of when you started to set the goals that were most meaningful for you in life. What types of things jumped to mind? What were the things that you wanted to accomplish, and are so far on track to do so? Rita 05:00 Well, I fell in love with psychology and found the application of psychology in business when I was in high school. In Organizational Psychology, this was before positive psychology really had a lot of traction. You know, if I were going to do another degree, now, I probably get a degree in positive psychology. But I'm not volunteering to go back to school. So, that's not going to happen. That's not on the game plan. But because I love psychology so much, you know, I knew the work that I wanted to do, I knew I wanted to go in and help businesses be more effective. I've always believed in human-centred leadership. But we're not turning people into machines, or asking them to check their brains at the door, we are taking humans and all that is humaneness, and figuring out how to maximize that individually and collectively in a workplace. And so that's just been my passion. But I did have an experience a formative experience internationally that really gave me the bug, I wanted to work internationally. And I got to do a little bit of that, and my second last corporate job, and then my husband and I decided to start a family. So, at that point, I knew I didn't want it to do a lot of international travel, that's very difficult on your body, and it's difficult on your family. And I sort of put that aside. And now I've got a college graduate since we talked, and my oldest daughter is entering her senior year of high school. So, our family life is moving into a place where I've decided that I really want to pursue that opportunity to work and serve audiences internationally again. And so I feel like I'm just sort of coming full circle again. But I feel so blessed that I've been able to pace my career in my life, it is a place of privilege, not everybody could do all the things that I've done. Not everybody has the privilege of being able to step out of a corporate job that's giving them health care benefits, and 401k matches and those kinds of things. If you don't have a spouse, for example, if you're single parent really hard to do that. So, I do recognize I have a lot of privilege in where I am sitting right now. But it is fun to be coming full circle. And so my daughter, I've got one more year before she heads off to college. So, I'm not looking to be jumping deep into a lot of international travel, I want to really enjoy this last year that we have together with her in my home, but it's on the horizon. You know, I need to start building the groundwork, making the connections, finding the opportunities. And so I'm always sort of playing a little bit of a long game. When I made all of those early decisions. I didn't see this coming up. But it is fun to see that this opportunity is emerging and passions that I held at such a young age, I didn't completely step away from them, I just stepped aside of them for a while. And now I can merge back in. Tim 7:57 It's interesting that you're at that point where you're in a season of your life where things are becoming possible again, and I think that sets us up for a great conversation because it hasn't been necessarily right until now. Now that it's opening up and it's happening. But you know, speaking to you and understanding sort of how you've come through this, and how both of us are developing professionally. And I share a lot of the goals and the tensions that you experienced, up to that point when it wasn't quite there. And this is now open to you again. But the motivation necessarily for you to be moving into these spaces was still there. It was simmering, or it was still smouldering under the surface. But it was the right time to do it. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship with that? Rita 08:49 Yeah, I mean, I would say to Tim that it wasn't even necessarily conscious, right? So, in 2022, just to catch up with listeners who didn't catch our earlier episodes, in 2022, I wrote a book called Show Up Positive. That was based on the consulting work that I did during the pandemic. And when I wrote that book, I wasn't thinking, Oh, this is a parlay into international work. What I knew is I wrote this book because I had a message that I wanted to get into more people's hands to help people repair a damage done by the pandemic in their workplaces, get on to a path of healing, that would bring back more joy and fulfillment for everyone in the workplace. And a book is one of the ways that you can get information out to way more people right, than just people trying to find me. So, I wrote the book and I knew I was going to start positioning myself to take the stage at conferences and stuff, that having a stage presence would enable me to get more connections and more people get the message out further. I'm very passionate about the work that underpins show a positive, and the show a positive movement, which is about bringing workplaces back into this place of healing and health and well-being. And I didn't really construct that. But as I've gotten into this, I see, and it's like, oh, yeah, I used to love that, like, I want to do that more. I actually love being on stage and speaking at big conferences and stuff. And I get very nice reviews from people that just affirm and make me want to do more of it. But designing and delivering is something that makes me happy. So, it's really awesome when you have a career that fills your heart. And when you stay open, I have this larger intention, I have this larger goal or purpose of serving into the world, and leaving people in a better place. And I just keep following that path. And then other interesting things come about, but I do think there is a certain level of openness that you have to maintain for that. If I made the decision of like, oh, as soon as my kids are out of the house, while my husband and I are both gonna retire. We're older parents. So, we could theoretically be saying that, and I'm not going to be doing this work anymore, when none of that would be in place. But I love my work so much. I'm like, I got at least another decade in me that I want to keep working, I'm not ready to shut this down, I'm having too much fun. Tim 11:36 I'm glad you're in a state of flow with it. I'm glad that it's coming as it comes and it's the right time for this. I think it's exciting when new opportunities are opening up. And they're feeling like they're right there. And I'm also I would say privileged to be in that state of flow with my career, and the rest of it. But so many people that I talk to and I meet, they are not there, they are not in a position where they feel that work is where they should be. Work is getting them where they want to be. They're not finding that they are moving at a pace that is right for them. This must impact the ability to show up positively at work and feel like I know why I'm here and I know where this is going. Or at least I'm comfortable with where it's taking me and the path of least resistance is a great path to be on. What are some of your experiences? Or what do you see, being typical when a person is not fortunate? Like we are, to be feeling that we’re heading in a trajectory that makes sense. Rita 12:38 I think if you had your north star, if you know your purpose and your intention where you want to take your career, what experience that you want to have, you know, one time I thought, Oh, maybe I want to be the Chief Human Resources Officer somewhere or hold a position in the C suite. And then life took me kind of in a different direction. And I'm like, Okay, I can't even imagine being in that role or doing that job. Like that wouldn't be gratifying to me anymore. But there was a point in my career where I thought that would be kind of gratifying to me. So, you know, what I would say is, you know, once you know where that is, then the question is, are you maximizing each experience? You know, you may not be where you want to be yet. And this experience may not be the best experience. But that doesn't mean that you can't take something of value out of it. So, every step that you go is an opportunity to learn and grow, if you have that mindset. So, it's that growth mindset that we talked about a lot, right? If you come to every opportunity with a growth mindset, you will walk away with something that will advance you closer to the place you want to be. That's what I think. Tim 13:58 Sure. That's great. I will press a little bit because I know that a lot of people feel that that growth mindset is escaping them. It's not there. And I mean, I think that people can be really tough on themselves, they can really start to fear that they're not growing, that they're stagnating. You know, and one of the things that I noticed is that often that feeling is not predicated by where they find themselves situationally, but how they're conceptualizing where they are. Right? And you and I talked a little bit before about relative comparison and seeing, you know, I should be further along. I really should be doing more with this talent that I have, or I should be reaching a greater level sooner than I am now. Could you walk me into a little bit about how that influences that thinking of people staying in the growth mindset or staying positive about where they are and where they're headed? And having the energy then to strive, or continue to feel love for their job, or their vocation? Rita 15:09 I want to talk about a little bit of history for me, and then maybe where I am currently in my business. So, when I was in corporate, most of my corporate jobs that I left, I loved the company, I loved what I was doing. I was learning, I was growing, until that moment when I wasn't or I felt like I wasn't. And it's hard when I reflect back on that, it was hard in the moment, and it's hard now to even exactly name what it is. But you know, now that we have this term, quite quitting, be less engaged. I mean, before I made the leap from one company to the next, I definitely felt that shift in my own engagement that was happening. And it was happening because of exactly what you're talking about. It was happening because we have this storyteller that lives inside of our head, called our inner critic. And our inner critic is an awesome storyteller, but kind of a OneNote storyteller, in that the inner critic never notices all the good things that are happening, the inner critic just tells you all the things that aren't happening, or that are problematic about what is or is not happening. And so that's where our personal discontent comes from. And discontent is the enemy of feeling positive at work. And so, good for you, listener if you're noticing your discontent because so many of us fall into a habit of discontented thinking that we don't even recognize because the tricky thing about our inner critic, is our inner critic blames everything outside of us. So, it's our discontent is not anything to do with us. It's because of our circumstances. It's because of this person. So, why did that person get promoted? I worked just as hard. I've been here longer, I should have gotten promoted. Why did that person get the job? Why did that person get a bigger raise than I got? You know, a lot of companies now have transparency of pay. Or why is that person making more money than I am making? You know, whatever it might be, in the kind of roles that I held up, for me a lot of times it was more of the like, where is the leadership of this organization, steering the ship? Why are they making those decisions? And do I feel confident about the direction that we are headed as an organization? I mean, things like that would create my discontent. And honestly, there are times when the right thing for you to do is to leave, when you're experiencing that discontent, that is a signal, it's like putting your hand on the hot stove, right? And you don't just leave it there, to get fourth-degree burns, right? You like you feel the hot stove, you pull your hand back, you're like, oh, signal there, I don't touch that that's hot. Do not touch that, you know, sometimes we are getting legitimate signals that are like it's hot, it's time to move on. Sometimes we're just caught in our own internal stories. And when you can't move on, when you're in a situation where the timing isn't right for you to abandon this job because you need the benefits. Or you need the convenience between your children's school and your work so that you can make the carpool thing work, you know. I mean, there's all kinds of crazy stuff right in our lives that dictate or limit some of our choices. And so when you're in that place, you can just stay in your discontent and despair. Or you can start to challenge the thinking of that critic, you know, and decide what you can influence, what you can change, what you want to make different in your life. And so, I've certainly gone through places and stages in my corporate job, where I started to have doubt or concern, or jealousy over again, that comparison, comparing myself to other people, sometimes not even in the same company. I would have a friend from graduate school that was working for a different company. And they would say, Oh, I got a senior director role. And I'm thinking well, why am I not a senior director yet? Maybe I should be a senior director. You know, all of these things get planted inside of your mind, should I be looking for a senior director role? What would that be? Where would I go? But you know, their situation is not my situation. Their company is not my company. You know, if you talk to somebody and ding, ding, ding, if you have not figured this out already, at least in the US, if you talk to somebody that works at a bank, that you went to school with and they said, I'm the VP of something that's like just a general title, every person working in a bank seems to, if you're not a teller, you're probably a VP of something. That whole thing about comparison is the enemy is so correct. So, there are all kinds of things that can lead to our discontent. But comparison was always a big one that I noticed in my life, and now in my business. And as I think about and plan for the future, as an author of multiple books, you know, there are a lot of messages and signals out there that tell me, I should be making seven figures and I should be selling millions of books, and I should have a million followers on my social media channels. And I should have, you know, so much inbound lead generation that's coming in that I don't have to work, and those messages are everywhere I got people hit me up all the time that wants to sell me something, teach me how to do something. And if I'm not careful, I could get caught up in that comparison. I have to trust that the timeline I'm on is the timeline I am meant to have. Tim 21:14 Yeah, it's the timeline you're on. It's such a huge part and if I think back to what you've shared so far, which I think is great, we all have the story, we all have these choices that we've made. And we tend to minimize the quality of the decisions that we've made in the past. And if not the quality of the decisions, the conviction with which we've made them and said, you know, for me, we're going to choose that we're going to have kids, and we're going to now embark on a life that has that as one of the influences, one of the underlying designs. And that is going to now flavour every decision that comes past this. And we made a decision nobly and with a lot of conviction, and it's come with a lot of great benefits. And it's come with some trade-offs. But to then compare our subsequent decisions to what other people are doing or where they've gotten, it's very easy to see individual facets of their achievement, not looking at the other portions of their lives where they've had either circumstances that allow them to operate in certain ways or choices that allow them to operate certain ways. And so we begin to sort of zero in on one aspect of another person's life that we want, while disregarding everything else. And so, that story, that inner critic that you're talking about, that leads us to that point of saying, wait a minute, we don't have enough power, or we're not as far along as we should be. I was reminded of attribution bias when you were saying that, you know, there's that thought, when I'm rolling down the road, if somebody cuts me off, it's because let's say if I merge sloppily into another lane, I can say to myself, well, it's because I am late to pick up my kid and people around me will understand because everybody makes a mistake once in a while. But if somebody else does it, it's like, moron, that guy has a character flaw that allows them to not concern themselves about me at all. And neither of those statements are entirely true. But they're simplified. And so we jump to it. And we think that that's the truth. And in the same way, if we're comparing ourselves to someone else, or if we're looking at a position within a job, it's that what I heard you say was, there's this inner critic or this, it could be like, we talk about the imposter or whatnot. We don't have the power, we need to go where we want to go. If we turn that into a compelling reality that we can't escape, and we cannot make any other kind of choice or see any kind of leverage in the situation then likely it's time to go. Because you are simply resigned yourself to the fact that you have no way out of this. Rita 24:06 There's a conversation that says, like, take a celebrity like Angelina Jolie or somebody like Oprah Winfrey, well, they have the same 24 hours in a day that you have and look at all they get done. But it's not true. Like we've we've debunked that myth, right? You can look at somebody else's life and the results that they're getting and you can make all kinds of assumptions, but to your point, you don't really know the reality behind that. Tim 24:33 Gross oversimplification. Rita 24:35 And they may be making trade-offs that you would never make. I didn't want a full-time nanny. I wanted to be home and raise my kids. That's a trade-off that I made. Whereas, other people would, you know, do something different, the amount of investment that you're willing to make in your education and other things. So yes, comparison is the thief of joy, because we do not really understand the whole structure, the whole system around that. And we make all kinds of assumptions. And at the end of the day, if we can leave you with no other message, learn to trust yourself and trust your path. You can have honest dialogue, I do with myself all the time, you know, if I want to be working internationally, in what's my time horizon? And what's going to allow that to happen? Well, I've got to make connections, I've got to start finding speaking opportunities. I got to find people that opened doors for me, well, am I following through on those things? Then I'm taking action, the fact that I don't have things locked and loaded and ready to go doesn't mean that I shouldn't trust myself, or then I'm not making progress. Tim 25:48 Yeah, you’re not working as hard as you can work or to the best of your ability. And it's so easy to really criticize oneself. And we had played with the idea of patience and being patient with oneself. Well, if you're judging yourself compared to somebody else's pace, that could be really a recipe for disaster. Often, when I'm coaching people, I say, you know, you gotta be fluent in who you are. Because the tractor may be jealous of the Ferrari Testarossa. But if the task is to pull a plow, you don't have the right torque ratio in a Ferrari, to pull the plow, you have to trust yourself that if you've chosen the right vocation, the right field, you've got the right torque ratio and tire set and everything else, traction to do what you need to do. And to second guess ourselves constantly is really, it can be debilitating. And so, rather than patience, rather than comparison, maybe we focus on calibration and saying, am I right for the road that I've chosen to be on? Am I happy with how I'm performing on this road, because I chose not to go into a stream that would have seen me go up to a C suite, I've chosen to coach to the C suite. And I'm highly satisfied with that I'm in my 50th year, that that was the path that I took. If I compare myself to someone else, suddenly it's very unfair to the choices that I've made and the joy that I've derived from them. And yeah, it's a trade-off. But some of those were tough. But I think that that trust itself is a really big one. Rita 27:28 I love your word calibration. I mean, I think calibrating is absolutely it's your own goals. It's your own journey. And really self-monitoring and calibrating where what is reasonable. You know, my father, I was posted about this week, he is now on his third cancer journey. So, now, part of my calibration is making time to make sure that I'm there to support him during this time, that changes a little bit of what my pathway looks, it doesn't mean I have to abandon things. But I might need to recalibrate. Tim 28:06 Yeah. And don't judge yourself against Beyonce or Brene Brown or somebody else who does not have the same contextual experience. They're not where you are. So, trust yourself, you know where you are. And if you don't, you better find out. A couple of things as we wrap up here. So, if you were to have one wish for anybody listening today, what would it be? Rita 28:28 So, my wish is that you would really tune in and develop that trust in yourself, step away, give yourself permission to step away from the comparison. Stop, my wish for you is to stop looking at all of those adversaries that you're seeing on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn that are telling you, you're not enough that you need to be more and more and more that whatever you're doing, you should be making more money, you should be driving a nicer car, you should be living in a better house, whatever it should be. Somebody else's more doesn't have to be your more. I have firmly rejected those things. And I would encourage you to do the same. And a proof that I can give to you is I know somebody that coaches people like Tim and I to build their businesses. And this person is now telling the story about how they were working so hard that they gave up time with their kids that their home life tanked all of these things to get to their multimillion-dollar business. I never wanted to give up all those things to get to that business. So, I don't have a multi-million dollar business. But yes, that mean honestly saying this is what it took and this is what it costs me. You are the only person that knows the cost equation that makes sense in your life. And you got to trust yourself to pay attention to that. Tim 29:52 Absolutely. A previous guest had asked the question, by the way since you've been on we have this new tradition and that is, you get et to lob a question of your own at the next guest. As you give a quick answer to the lobbed the question of the past guest. So, Julie Friedman-Smith asked the question, how do we find the courage to do the hard thing? And I think we're in a perfect position to answer this right now. Rita 30:19 Well, I truly believe that courage is not overcoming your fear, but moving forward, despite your fear. And so I think the way that you find the courage is that you trust you believe in yourself, you draw upon the best resources around you that you can, and you take a first step and you forgive yourself, for the times that you falter. You can lift yourself back up out of that, and let go the expectation that it's going to be perfect, or that there is this clear and clean, perfect path. Sometimes we just have to be the adventurous spirit that is going to make a lot of mistakes along the way, but eventually, they will get to where we want to be. Tim 31:03 I love that. I love that you said draw on the resources around you. And listen to yourself and believe in yourself and believe in the resources around you and allow you to don't discount them. Excellent. Excellent answer. Closing minutes here. Where can people find you? Rita 31:19 Well, I have to give you a question first, right before– Tim 31:22 You do. Thanks. That's why you should be in charge. Rita 31:24 Wait, wait, I was supposed to give you something else. Tim 31:26 Yeah, sorry. Oops. Rita 31:28 Yeah, question to pass on to the next person would be, what is the advice you would give to, as I've gotten a newly minted graduate, If you could look backwards and talk to your newly minted self coming out of college, starting your career, knowing where the landscape is now, what advice would you give, to help them find their path to happiness and well being at work? Tim 32:00 Great question. And I will revel in the answer that the next person gives. Rita 32:07 I’m gonna have to now have to get to listen. So, that's how you get us listening and making sure we're listening to multiple episodes. Tim 32:13 Now we're developing. It's so great to see this. Well see this community of people have been on this podcast cropping up. I really love it, because they're so supportive, and they're so helpful towards each other. So, it's great. Okay, now the question. Mindful. Rita 32:38 So, find me at igniteextraordinary.com. It's all one word igniteextraordinary.com That is my handle. Well, Facebook just temporarily took my site down. So, I don't know maybe on Facebook, on Instagram, I'm @igniteextraordinary. On LinkedIn, I'm Rita Ernst Positivity Influencer. So, it's pretty easy to find me when you just add that positivity influencer. And you can find my book Show Up Positive is in print, digital and audio available anywhere that you buy your books. Tim 33:04 100%. We will include links to all of those in the show notes. Rita Ernst, it has been my pleasure to have you come on and spread your particular brand and positivity, which I love. Thank you so much for spending time with me, touching the lives of the people that are listening, and really putting yourself out there as an example of how to make those hard choices. Rita 33:26 I love this conversation. Thank you for inviting me back, Tim. Tim 33:31 No problem. I can't wait to see what's next, Rita. Tim 33:38 Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading. Comments are closed.
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